Datsyuk - Bergeron - Hossa vs Kariya - Kopitar - Guy Lafleur

[norrisnick]

No one is saying this so go put your strawman back on the farm, what was stated was that he would be picked 6th easily as a peak playoff performer by the majority of people here which is still the question you are dancing around.

I put the question in another thread maybe you might elarn something there.

Rank these players at their peak that you'd want in a 7 game playoff series

Just like the question asks rank these players at their peaks in a 7 game playoff series. Bergeron Datsyuk Hossa Kariya

forums.hfboards.com

Did you?

 

[Neutrinos]

Datsyuk = Kariya
Bergeron < Kopitar
Hossa <<< Lafleur

The second group easily.

You're looking at it wrong...

Datsyuk would be lining up opposite LaFleur, not Kariya

This is what an overhead view of the opening face off would look like:

Hossa - Bergeron - Datsyuk
=======O=======
Kariya - Kopitar - LaFleur

 

[Hockey Outsider]

It’s also worth noting, Kariya only had two substantial playoff runs in his career. The first, during his prime, he had 13 points in 11 games. The only other one was the run to the Finals in which his overall production was disappointing, but he did have the legendary “off the floor, on the board” moment.

When we say Kariya’s playoff record is lacking, we’re really putting a ton of weight on his playing mostly on non-playoff teams. And his failure to score a few more points while falling *checks notes* one point short of the team lead while making it to Game 7 of the Finals.

I agree that Kariya didn't get much of a chance in the playoffs (since he spent most of his prime on weak teams, lacking depth). I also agree that Kariya (and the 2nd line as a whole) is being underrated in this thread.

But I've always been critical of Kariya's performance in the 2003 playoffs. He wasn't quite at his peak anymore, but he still had a very strong regular season (2nd team all-star, 13th in scoring). He led the Ducks in scoring by 22 points in the regular season, but in the spring, he was (narrowly) outscored by Petr Sykora and a geriatric Adam Oates. He barely outscored Mike Leclerc (a scrappy utility winger with a career high of 44 points).

Kariya had a streak of 7 points in 17 games, which is ridiculously bad for a HOF player in his prime. 4 points in 7 games in the SC Finals isn't great (even against the suffocating Devils), but it's even worse when you consider that three of those were in one game (he had 1 point in the other 6 games).

I view 2003 as a missed opportunity for Kariya. Giguere was historic, but Kariya finally had a chance to carry his team on a deep playoff run. I know he had that memorable goal (which he scored in the finals after Stevens flattened him earlier in the game), but I found him completely underwhelming that spring. (I get that the opponents tried to shut him down because he was the Ducks' best skater, but you'd still expect more for someone who was being compared to Jagr, Selanne and Bure only a few years earlier).

 

[tarheelhockey]

I agree that Kariya didn't get much of a chance in the playoffs (since he spent most of his prime on weak teams, lacking depth). I also agree that Kariya (and the 2nd line as a whole) is being underrated in this thread.

But I've always been critical of Kariya's performance in the 2003 playoffs. He wasn't quite at his peak anymore, but he still had a very strong regular season (2nd team all-star, 13th in scoring). He led the Ducks in scoring by 22 points in the regular season, but in the spring, he was (narrowly) outscored by Petr Sykora and a geriatric Adam Oates. He barely outscored Mike Leclerc (a scrappy utility winger with a career high of 44 points).

Kariya had a streak of 7 points in 17 games, which is ridiculously bad for a HOF player in his prime. 4 points in 7 games in the SC Finals isn't great (even against the suffocating Devils), but it's even worse when you consider that three of those were in one game (he had 1 point in the other 6 games).

I view 2003 as a missed opportunity for Kariya. Giguere was historic, but Kariya finally had a chance to carry his team on a deep playoff run. I know he had that memorable goal (which he scored in the finals after Stevens flattened him earlier in the game), but I found him completely underwhelming that spring. (I get that the opponents tried to shut him down because he was the Ducks' best skater, but you'd still expect more for someone who was being compared to Jagr, Selanne and Bure only a few years earlier).

The 2003 run is a bit off-topic for this thread, as Kariya was several years past his peak by that time, but an interesting case study in the dynamics of the DPE.

I don’t recall being surprised by Kariya’s performance in that run. Yes he was Anaheim’s top scorer by a lot, but not because he scored a ton — 81 pts was good for 13th that season, about average for a team leader. The gap was due to Anaheim being that low-scoring of a team. One of the worst in the league offensively, largely because it really was a lineup of glue guys plus an a post-Suter version of Kariya. A team construction comparable to if last year’s Blue Jackets had more mid-range support players and made it into the playoffs. Going into the playoffs it’s natural to look at that construction and think, “this won’t end well for them”. But then Giguere happened.

What’s really easy to forget is that New Jersey was actually they worst defense they faced in that run — 15th in GA, compared to Dallas (1st), Minnesota (4th) and Detroit (9th). So just to get to experience the wide-open firewagon style of the Dead Puck Era Devils, they had to go through three teams that were chasing records for not allowing any offense at all, particularly Minnesota.

So putting that all together: the Ducks had no business winning anything that year, especially against the teams they faced. They put up 1.93 G/60 which is auto-loss territory. All their opponents needed to do was shadow Kariya and score two goals. But then Giguere goes and posts an incomprehensible 1.65, so a quiet first-round out turns into that extended run to within a game of the Cup.

I agree that it was a missed opportunity of sorts, in the sense that it was his second and final chance to build a legacy in a long playoff run. But what I see there is the impact of him being singularly targeted and smothered by the kind of defense you’d expect from 4 of the league’s top defensive units in the 2003 playoffs (of all times). A predictable stat line would be 4 games, 2-0-2 and nobody remembers it. Instead, Gigurere did his thing and it became a 21-game slog. Other than the obvious concussion from Stevens, I don’t recall him facing injuries or anything. It was just rodeo-style defense for 2 months against a guy who couldn’t just power through it like a Jagr or Forsberg.

One other thought on this: Kariya’s goal scoring dropped in the playoffs, but what really killed his numbers was a lack of assists. If he maintained his usual 1:2 ratio he’d have had 18 points for a huge lead over the rest of the team. Instead his ratio was exactly 1g:1a, an indicator of just how much he was being targeted and prevented from creating anything for his linemates. Giguere getting that team as far as he did was a miracle, and I still have reservations that it might have actually been the best goalie hot streak of all time.

 

[Coffees]

I appreciate everyone on this thread for a great debate

 

[Connor McConnor]

And Kariya has a nifty 9pt playoff series on his resume. You were listing a bunch of 90+ regular seasons up thread so I pointed out that Kariya had a higher Hart finish than any of Datsyuk, Bergeron, or Hossa. At Kariya's peak, he was above all of Datsyuk, Bergeron, and Hossa.

edit - what strawman? What is this supposed to be if not some 1v1 silliness?

"Bergeron versus Kariya would be shut down very quickly, same with Datsyuk versus Kariya.

Hossam versus Kariya might be less lopsided but it would be extremely lopsided and for good reasons."

Kariya at his peak was not better than Datsyuk at his.

 

[norrisnick]

Kariya at his peak was not better than Datsyuk at his.

Disagree.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Disagree.

Kariya at his peak barely outscored Dats at his while Kariya was a one dimensional player and Dats won the Selke. At best it's a wash, and honestly, I'd take Dats 11 times out of 10 because the point difference is marginal at best while Dats did everything else.

 

[wetcoast]

The idea that a peak, Hart-level Kariya would be shut down, or that his matchup would be “extremely lopsided”, is just inexplicable. In his only playoff run during that part of his career, he put up 7-6-13 in 11 games, including PPG against the legendary 1997 Red Wings despite his team losing in a sweep. This was coming off posting 44-55-99 in only 69 regular season games. What makes you think anyone would just casually shut him down and make the matchup lopsided?

Is it really though, after all this is about a 7 game series and we have Datsyuk who had back to back 97 point seasons with Selke wins, what on the defensive side is Kariya actually bringing, nevermind Lafleur to compete with the others groups trio?

Alot is being made of both the ducks being a poor team but then skipping over that Kariya was playing with Selanne, it's kind of like saying that Stamkos was held back offensively on some poor TB teams but skipping over MSL.

Peak/prime Fedorov in the series was +5 playing against against Kariya and peak/Prime Datsyuk isn't that far removed from a 97 Fedorov is he?

I love Paul Kariya he was an offensive wizard and could really skate and was another of the many causalities of the dirty concussion 90s in which a lot of star players ahd careers/seasons shortened to idiotic injuries from dirty hits but he just doesn't being that much defensively in a 7 game series I think all things being equal (ie Lafleur isn't out there with Ken dryden, Robinson, Savard and company) aside from both trios I would like the make up of the core elite 2 way players than the other trio which has an elite 2 way guy then 2 very offensive wingers to be sure but not much going on defensively there IMO.

Sure we don't know how the result would really end up but lets look back at recent playoff history and often the SC winner isn't the one with superstar Art Ross guys on it right?

 

[wetcoast]

Did you?

Yes I did , a lot of guys talked about career playoff stats and regular season play but still many had Kariya lower down overall when reading the actual question.

 

[norrisnick]

Yes I did , a lot of guys talked about career playoff stats and regular season play but still many had Kariya lower down overall when reading the actual question.

So, not a unanimous last?

 

[wetcoast]

So, not a unanimous last?

Nothing is unanimous on HF Boards, in the all time best playoff performers some guy had Gretzky's freaking 7th overall.

 

[norrisnick]

Nothing is unanimous on HF Boards, in the all time best playoff performers some guy had Gretzky's freaking 7th overall.

More posters have Kariya 1-2 than they do 3-4 in there. And you were saying he'd be everyone's last. It has nothing to do with outliers and everything to do with your premise being wrong.

 

[wetcoast]

More posters have Kariya 1-2 than they do 3-4 in there. And you were saying he'd be everyone's last. It has nothing to do with outliers and everything to do with your premise being wrong.

Sure it started right here with reading

I’m pretty sure Kariya would have performed the best, had he been on stacked teams like Detroit, Chicago, and to lesser extents, Pittsburgh and Boston.

I noticed your comments in the other thread and while I’m not into what if games, that’s the difference between Kariya and the other players.

Well, that and being a better player, who had what, at least six known concussions?

23rd post at least took a look at the actual numbers though but chalk up yourself a win if you need one either way most people in this thread have the first group.

Just looking at numbers for reference (not my ranking definitively):

Datsyuk 23 points in 22 games for a +13 outstanding all around numbers and outstanding defense. Played on amazing teams though.

Hossa 26 points 20 games +8 also outstanding. Played outstanding defense as well. Played with some all time great centers but was the best defensive player on his line.

Bergeron tough to say what his peak is but if we can call 11 games in the playoffs peak he got 16 points for a plus 6 which is much better than below. His second best is much better than Kariya’s second best at 23 points 20 games for a +15 (wow).

Kariya I guess his best playoffs is 13 points in 11 games and a -2. Pretty solid but small sample size and in a larger sample size he was much worse. Not really a great defensive player.

 

[norrisnick]

Posters all agree with me if I only take into account their posts and no one else's.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Is it really though, after all this is about a 7 game series and we have Datsyuk who had back to back 97 point seasons with Selke wins, what on the defensive side is Kariya actually bringing, nevermind Lafleur to compete with the others groups trio?

Why do you think peak Kariya would be shut down in a 7 game series? In the only 7-gamer he played at that age, he had 9 points. And then in the following series he went PPG against a Red Wings team that had the defending Selke winner Fedorov, not to mention the likes of Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Murphy, Larionov, etc. Kariya went 2-2-4 against the same Detroit team that held a peak Lindros to 1-2-3 in an equal number of games, his only goal being a throwaway with a few seconds left in the series when the Cup celebration had already begun.

Alot is being made of both the ducks being a poor team but then skipping over that Kariya was playing with Selanne, it's kind of like saying that Stamkos was held back offensively on some poor TB teams but skipping over MSL.

Kariya outscored Selanne 13-10 in the 97 playoff run, including 4-2 in the Detroit series.

And in 2003, Selanne was in SJ. Kariya was truly on an island as the only offensive star on that team. That run gives you an image of a post-injury Kariya being singularly targeted by the defense game after game. While his numbers dropped a lot, he was only one point off the team lead and they ended up in the Finals. If some of the best defenses in NHL history couldn’t completely shut him down as the only threat on his team (in 2003 scoring no less) when he was well past his peak, why do we think Datsyuk would do any better against a peak version?

Peak/prime Fedorov in the series was +5 playing against against Kariya and peak/Prime Datsyuk isn't that far removed from a 97 Fedorov is he?

Well, +/- is heavily influenced by team outcomes and that series pitted a powerhouse against a powder puff, ending in a sweep. One would expect the +/- to be tilted against players on the losing team who got a lot of minutes.

But let’s follow the logic and say peak Datsyuk is good for +3 or +4, depending how far removed we think he is from Fedorov. That’s the best player on one line against the worst winger on the other.

What is Guy Lafleur’s +/- against Hossa? A lot more than +3, I’d wager. And then Bergeron/Kopitar seems to be more or less a wash, maybe a +1 either way.

By this logic, the balance seems to tilt toward the second team. Mainly because the gap between Lafleur and Hossa is a lot bigger than the gap between Datsyuk and Kariya.

I love Paul Kariya he was an offensive wizard and could really skate and was another of the many causalities of the dirty concussion 90s in which a lot of star players ahd careers/seasons shortened to idiotic injuries from dirty hits but he just doesn't being that much defensively in a 7 game series I think all things being equal (ie Lafleur isn't out there with Ken dryden, Robinson, Savard and company) aside from both trios I would like the make up of the core elite 2 way players than the other trio which has an elite 2 way guy then 2 very offensive wingers to be sure but not much going on defensively there IMO.

Sure we don't know how the result would really end up but lets look back at recent playoff history and often the SC winner isn't the one with superstar Art Ross guys on it right?

That’s all fair and it’s a good debate.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

How is line 2 losing this

 

[wetcoast]

Posters all agree with me if I only take into account their posts and no one else's.

Great insight on how your mind works thanks for that.

 

[wetcoast]

Why do you think peak Kariya would be shut down in a 7 game series? In the only 7-gamer he played at that age, he had 9 points. And then in the following series he went PPG against a Red Wings team that had the defending Selke winner Fedorov, not to mention the likes of Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Murphy, Larionov, etc. Kariya went 2-2-4 against the same Detroit team that held a peak Lindros to 1-2-3 in an equal number of games, his only goal being a throwaway with a few seconds left in the series when the Cup celebration had already begun.

It's not that I think that Kariya would be shut down, it's that the first trio just seems to me to be more likely to click and do better overall in all aspects of the game than the second trio.

One of the things that stands out to me is that the second trio are all guys who need the puck a lot to do damage the first trio less so.

Kariya outscored Selanne 13-10 in the 97 playoff run, including 4-2 in the Detroit series.

And in 2003, Selanne was in SJ. Kariya was truly on an island as the only offensive star on that team. That run gives you an image of a post-injury Kariya being singularly targeted by the defense game after game. While his numbers dropped a lot, he was only one point off the team lead and they ended up in the Finals. If some of the best defenses in NHL history couldn’t completely shut him down as the only threat on his team (in 2003 scoring no less) when he was well past his peak, why do we think Datsyuk would do any better against a peak version?



Well, +/- is heavily influenced by team outcomes and that series pitted a powerhouse against a powder puff, ending in a sweep. One would expect the +/- to be tilted against players on the losing team who got a lot of minutes.

But let’s follow the logic and say peak Datsyuk is good for +3 or +4, depending how far removed we think he is from Fedorov.

That’s the best player on the line against the worst player. What is Guy Lafleur’s +/- against Hossa? A lot more than +3, I’d wager. And then Bergeron/Kopitar seems to be more or less a wash, maybe a +1 either way.

I don't know about that as good as Lafleur was defensively he didn't bring much and I also think that a lot of his "greatness" gets amplified by being the offensive leader on a Habs dynasty with many other key roles and less offensive one being held by other players.

In an all things being equal matchup I just prefer 2 elite 2 way guys in a 7 game series, the possession game would tip the scales for me.

Karyia and Lafleur were both huge shooters and I really don't know how often that leads to team success.

By this logic, the balance seems to tilt toward the second team. Mainly because the gap between Lafleur and Hossa is a lot bigger than the gap between Datsyuk and Kariya.

Perhaps but I think the first trio is one of those the sum is greater than the parts and the second trio doesn't exactly mesh as it looks like on paper type of things.

That’s all fair and it’s a good debate.

Sure and good faith arguments are good around here.