Dark Side of the Ring - Viceland show

[sabremike]

What do you mean money doesn't equal quality? Vince/Umaga vs Trump/Lashley made a killing!

It's true the argument for money made being an indication of quality has been pushed by wrestling fans very hard the last two years. Nash, Hogan, Hall, Russo, and others have been pushing this angle for decades knowing the critical response to their work isn't good. Wrestling fans sound more and more like wannabe business insiders than fans these days.

And all 4 of the people you just mentioned played a huge part in putting out such a horrible product that WCW lost more money in multiple calendar years than any promotion in history and had it's desiccated remains sold to Vince for a laughably low price, so in fact they did the opposite of make money.

 

[sabremike]

Though I disagree I at least appreciate that this time your post at least attempts to address quality a little bit. The angle was good, unfortunately for Cornette he was a bit early to try it and his promotion was simply in a place that was never going to earn money. The same moralistic drivel was thrown around at WWF just a few years later during a massive boom period. Of course, as we all know the money part has no relevance when it comes to the quality of the work.

I will add, I could totally see Cornette ripping the exact same angle if it came from ECW or WWF. Outlaw mudshow killed the territory etc.

The fact that every race baiting angle done since has bombed in any major promotion dumb enough to try it suggests otherwise (Muhammad Hassan being the most obvious example).

 

[JackSlater]

What do you mean money doesn't equal quality? Vince/Umaga vs Trump/Lashley made a killing!

It's true the argument for money made being an indication of quality has been pushed by wrestling fans very hard the last two years. Nash, Hogan, Hall, Russo, and others have been pushing this angle for decades knowing the critical response to their work isn't good. Wrestling fans sound more and more like wannabe business insiders than fans these days.

The plague of people trying to parrot Meltzer really can't go soon enough. The guy is a great historian for wrestling but in matters of opinion he's just like anyone else. It is annoying that people buy his crap when it comes to justifying things he wants to praise but really can't based on quality by citing money or, even worse, "it worked for the people in the audience". This is only selectively done deending on Melzter's opinion of the wrestler and the company they work for of course but it still gets regurgitated by fan insiders

The fact that every race baiting angle done since has bombed in any major promotion dumb enough to try it suggests otherwise (Muhammad Hassan being the most obvious example).

Not remotely a fact, see the Nation of Domination for instance, and what exactly is suggested otherwise? Surely it's not whether the angle was good or not, because it is ridiculous to attempt to use money as a proxy for quality. It would also be ridiculous to suggest that something was good or bad based on whether anyone else has successfully pulled it off since, even if your point was accurate in the first place.

 

[boredmale]

The plague of people trying to parrot Meltzer really can't go soon enough. The guy is a great historian for wrestling but in matters of opinion he's just like anyone else. It is annoying that people buy his crap when it comes to justifying things he wants to praise but really can't based on quality by citing money or, even worse, "it worked for the people in the audience". This is only selectively done deending on Melzter's opinion of the wrestler and the company they work for of course but it still gets regurgitated by fan insiders.

I think the match that defines everything wrong with Meltzer's star system is Hogan vs Andre Wrestlemania 3, which he gave a -3 stars. I say this as somebody who didn't care for Hogan at the time but the shear spectacle of the match and buildup despite an admittingly not so great in ring match makes it ridiculous to claim that the match itself is worth -3 stars

The whole problem with a star system based on workrate is it puts more stock on how good a match is rather then how active the crowd is during the match. I seen many bad matches workrate wise that were great because the crowd was into it and many boring matches that the workrate was close to perfect but the crowd was dead and ruined the mood.

 

[JackSlater]

I think the match that defines everything wrong with Meltzer's star system is Hogan vs Andre Wrestlemania 3, which he gave a -3 stars. I say this as somebody who didn't care for Hogan at the time but the shear spectacle of the match and buildup despite an admittingly not so great in ring match makes it ridiculous to claim that the match itself is worth -3 stars

The whole problem with a star system based on workrate is it puts more stock on how good a match is rather then how active the crowd is during the match. I seen many bad matches workrate wise that were great because the crowd was into it and many boring matches that the workrate was close to perfect but the crowd was dead and ruined the mood.

Yeah pretty much. If you want to emphasize workrate and execution that's fine, but you can't then praise matches that are blatantly crappy in that regard due to money or audience approval after you've taken shots at Ultimate Warrior matches for years. Just be consistent. Meltzer is in a business just as everyone else is though and the blind acceptance people put in his opinions is odd.

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

And all 4 of the people you just mentioned played a huge part in putting out such a horrible product that WCW lost more money in multiple calendar years than any promotion in history and had it's desiccated remains sold to Vince for a laughably low price, so in fact they did the opposite of make money.

Yes I know they lost a lot of money. My point is that they're clear idiots who have been pushing a nonsense case for themselves for decades, and this angle of money drawn equals great success is a terrible argument. Popularity isn't prestige. Though they had successful careers outside of 2001 WCW at different points too. But if something didn't make money means it's bad, then I can only assume you're suggesting the opposite is true. By that logic then current WWE is the greatest wrestling promotion ever, and we all know that isn't true.

I have no interest in debating the moralistic implications of a pro wrestling angle being bad or good, and those implications being what is used to judge if things are entertaining or not. I also am not a fan of traditionally carny arguments over what made the most money. These are arguments that just push WWE and Vince's agenda at the end of the day.

 

[GKJ]

I think the match that defines everything wrong with Meltzer's star system is Hogan vs Andre Wrestlemania 3, which he gave a -3 stars. I say this as somebody who didn't care for Hogan at the time but the shear spectacle of the match and buildup despite an admittingly not so great in ring match makes it ridiculous to claim that the match itself is worth -3 stars

The whole problem with a star system based on workrate is it puts more stock on how good a match is rather then how active the crowd is during the match. I seen many bad matches workrate wise that were great because the crowd was into it and many boring matches that the workrate was close to perfect but the crowd was dead and ruined the mood.

I don't know why it's a problem, in 1987 it was was way, way, way less important to illicit positive crowd reactions in conjunction with a workrate like it would be today, where it's almost impossible to have a well-received match unless the crowd is engaged with it. The business changed a lot in 33 years, if they had the same match today it wouldn't be received anywhere close to the same it did then - in both directions. It likely wouldn't be a legendary moment, nor would it be a -4 star match. To get a negative ratings, from just about anyone today, you'd have to have an inherently bad concept of a match and/or egregious errors within it along with the crowd either being silent as to be confused or a vociferously adverse reaction. A big reason for that is because in this generation, it's become a skill unto itself for performers to achieve reactions, provided the booking is done properly.

 

[CDJ]

Thought the show about the Brawl for All was tremendous last night


Vince Russo is a moron, I’m totally ok with how unhinged Cornette is towards the guy. I know I wouldn’t take it sitting down if a shit stain like Russo was f***ing around with something I dedicated my entire life too

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Punishing Bart Gunn for winning by making him fight Butterbean is the most Vince McMahon thing I can think off.

 

[Brodeur]

When I watched the Brawl for All originally, I thought they turned it into a work after Bart KO'd Dr. Death. I guess for me, I thought the fighting was so bad that I assumed Godfather and JBL took a dive to make Bart look like a star.

Definitely was sad seeing Droz.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Thought the show about the Brawl for All was tremendous last night


Vince Russo is a moron, I’m totally ok with how unhinged Cornette is towards the guy. I know I wouldn’t take it sitting down if a shit stain like Russo was f***ing around with something I dedicated my entire life too

I'd love to see a shoot fight Corny/Russo one off at Wrestlemania.

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

I'd love to see a shoot fight Corny/Russo one off at Wrestlemania.

Corny's a bit crazy, but he knows the business, Russo never understood the business and pretty much after he lost Vince as a filter he showed he was a terrible writer and had no idea what he was doing. I mean I have sympathy for the guy on a physical level, he probably did permanent brain damage when he actually stepped into the ring. But the guy was a talentless hack with bad ideas.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Corny's a bit crazy, but he knows the business, Russo never understood the business and pretty much after he lost Vince as a filter he showed he was a terrible writer and had no idea what he was doing. I mean I have sympathy for the guy on a physical level, he probably did permanent brain damage when he actually stepped into the ring. But the guy was a talentless hack with bad ideas.

I'd just love to finally see Cornette finally get his hands on Shit Stain and do what all of us only could fantasize/ dream about.

 

[JackSlater]

It will never not be funny that it's now possible for non-wrestling fans, or extremely casual wrestling fans, to get a taste of the Cornette - Russo feud.

 

[boredmale]

Corny's a bit crazy, but he knows the business, Russo never understood the business and pretty much after he lost Vince as a filter he showed he was a terrible writer and had no idea what he was doing. I mean I have sympathy for the guy on a physical level, he probably did permanent brain damage when he actually stepped into the ring. But the guy was a talentless hack with bad ideas.

I say this as a Cornette fan(I listen to both his podcasts) and not really a Ruso fan. While i get Corny's complaints about Russo, I don't think Russo was as terrible as Corny makes him out to be. Russo basically was a guy who can shoot out 100 ideas and 99 of them were dumb but he would hit something right on that 100th time.

2 of the biggest things I do think Russo got right in the WWF at least was realizing they needed to change(more like the ECW) and I do credit him for finding time to give everybody a story. That helped many wrestlers get over as dumb as some of the angles were.

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

I say this as a Cornette fan(I listen to both his podcasts) and not really a Ruso fan. While i get Corny's complaints about Russo, I don't think Russo was as terrible as Corny makes him out to be. Russo basically was a guy who can shoot out 100 ideas and 99 of them were dumb but he would hit something right on that 100th time.

2 of the biggest things I do think Russo got right in the WWF at least was realizing they needed to change(more like the ECW) and I do credit him for finding time to give everybody a story. That helped many wrestlers get over as dumb as some of the angles were.

Russo is a complimentary piece. He can work if he's not the one calling the shots or in charge. In WWE he had Vince, plus Cornette, Prichard and Patterson shooting out ideas. He had people to shoot down the very terrible stuff. When he was on his own in WCW and TNA it was nothing but shit.

The problem with Russo is that it's just TV to him. Had he familiarized himself with some wrestling tropes or how wrestling works he may have done a better job after WWE. Russo and Vince share similarities in that they believe the crowd will like whatever they present, and if they don't, they're just old fashioned or don't get it.

I find it endlessly entertaining that Russo constantly dumps on Corny for living in the past, when Russo believes we are in a never ending 1998.

 

[boredmale]

The problem with Russo is that it's just TV to him. Had he familiarized himself with some wrestling tropes or how wrestling works he may have done a better job after WWE. Russo and Vince share similarities in that they believe the crowd will like whatever they present, and if they don't, they're just old fashioned or don't get it.

I think it was Paul Heyman, but might have been Cornette who said that if it was up to Russo, we would have 2 hours of Piper smashing a coconut over Snuka's head. And I think that sums up Russo

 

[IceColdOx]

I love that Corny is coming out smelling like roses. Russo destroyed so many careers. I'm surprised Corny hasn't murdered him and there will be a line of people wanting to leak on that Bro's grave.

 

[JackSlater]

I say this as a Cornette fan(I listen to both his podcasts) and not really a Ruso fan. While i get Corny's complaints about Russo, I don't think Russo was as terrible as Corny makes him out to be. Russo basically was a guy who can shoot out 100 ideas and 99 of them were dumb but he would hit something right on that 100th time.

2 of the biggest things I do think Russo got right in the WWF at least was realizing they needed to change(more like the ECW) and I do credit him for finding time to give everybody a story. That helped many wrestlers get over as dumb as some of the angles were.

You're right regarding Russo and trying to have something going on for everyone. It's the right way to look at things in an era where most people care about the TV show associated with a promotion. He also struck gold the odd time, like with Storm in WCW. Cornette is usually right when ripping Russo though and always entertaining when doing so.

 

[CDJ]

I love that Corny is coming out smelling like roses. Russo destroyed so many careers. I'm surprised Corny hasn't murdered him and there will be a line of people wanting to leak on that Bro's grave.

Bro! Cmon bro it’s just wrestling bro


*camera pans to Droz*

 

[67 others]

Corny's a bit crazy, but he knows the business, Russo never understood the business and pretty much after he lost Vince as a filter he showed he was a terrible writer and had no idea what he was doing. I mean I have sympathy for the guy on a physical level, he probably did permanent brain damage when he actually stepped into the ring. But the guy was a talentless hack with bad ideas.

Russo was worthless without the vince Filter.

With the vince Filter, occasionally something that would make me laugh out loud would be allowed to happen. Stone Cold pouring cement into vince's corvette was a russo thing and it was brilliant. but for every idea Russo had that vince Mc used, he threw 25 out the window because they were dumb. Russo was crash TV for the sake of Crash TV.

The problem is, Jim Cornette was worthless without the Mchamon filter too.

Give Cornette the book and it would be this sort of thing from 1998

Jim Cornette promises to bring in a UFC star who will take his No Holds Barred bare knuckle dominance to the WWF rings. This is teased for a few weeks, with Jim Ross, Doc Hendrix and others arguing with Corny in backstage interviews and on commentary on Superstars and RAW. Finally JR tells Corny enoughs enough and JR promises to get Cornette time on RAW to bring in this star and have him show his stuff.

So on RAW JR interviews Cornette, who brings out Dan "The Beast" Severn, complete with UFC title around his waist and clips airing. Corny cuts the promo and gets across that Severn is a serious, silent assassin and promises he'll challenge anyone next week to a special match where the opponent has 5 mins to make Severn submit (tap) or pin him.

The next week Cornette gives an over the top intro to Severn's challenger as he brings out Scott Taylor as the challenger. Severn smashes him with several suplexes and double leg tackles before ground and pounding him to a ref stoppage. Corny promises another challenge on Superstars. That Saturday it's Tony Devito and he's smashed too.

RAW sees JR and Corny argue on commentary with Vince playing the middle man over Severn needing to take a real challenge.

Superstars sees Severn Nick Barberri and Gary Sabaugh grapplef***ed back to back in less than 5 total mins. Cornette and JR get into backstage later in the show over Severn needing to face a WWF superstar.

That Monday Cornette mocks JR for whining over Severn only facing some rookie no-name clowns. Corny rants in the ring and then says send out today's victim. Mark Starr starts to walk to the ring, when Doink's music hits and Corny starts screaming. He gets in Doink's face and screeches that Severn is a real killer and has no business messing with a goofy clown. Severn and Corny converse for a moment and the challenge starts. Doink prances and Severn snarls and double legs him. A series of 5 vicious German suplexes follow before the ref steps in and stops it. Severn grabs Doink's wig and rips it off and Corny wipes his paint off with Severn's towel. Doink is written off the show.

This prompts JR to confront Corny once again that weekend on Superstars and Severn grabs JR's arm, places it on the announce table and elbows his wrist "breaking" it. 9 days later on RAW, Severn is out for yet another open challenge, and JR appears with a cast on his arm. He tells Corny he's got an old friend who wants to confront the bully Severn. With that JR's touts the man's history of football and wrestling achievement before bringing out "Dr. Death" Steve Williams. Severn shits himself and Corny has a coronary. A match is made for the next PPV.
---------------------
WWE loses two full ratings points during these segments, and WCW wins the Monday Night Wars.

And why would Dr Death cause an actual fighter like Severn to shit his pants?


Cornette was in many ways way too routed in old school wrestling. in 1997 he still believed the world thought Wrestling was real. We all knew it was fake in the 80's Jim.

he made such a stink over "misusing" Dan Severn in the mid 90's.

Dude, Severn's go to move was a fireman's carry take down. I don't care how "real" you are, you're not getting over using amateur mat wrestling, and having the personality of a potato.

Severn was a bigger Bob Backlund and I'm not talking about the awesome batshit Bob who snapped on Bret Hart. I'm talking that vanilla howdy doody who "gosh darns" everything.

Yeah I'm sure his suplexes alone would've gotten him over in the attitude era.

 

[67 others]

And all 4 of the people you just mentioned played a huge part in putting out such a horrible product that WCW lost more money in multiple calendar years than any promotion in history and had it's desiccated remains sold to Vince for a laughably low price, so in fact they did the opposite of make money.

There was a lot more to the fall of WCW than that.

Bischoff was effectively handcuffed starting in 1996 after the time warner merger.

His approach in 1995 was to go from cartoony wrestling demographic of 8 to 14 year olds that the WWE dominated to a more realistic approach targeting 18 to 39 year old men. And he did that with aplomb with Hogan, Hall and Nash for a good while before it started going downhill. They took WCW from nobodies to beating the WWF for 2 straight years.

But in 1996 the corporate execs demanded they turn their product to target the 8 to 16 year old demographic again.

Yes once the handcuffs were on and creative options were drastically limited, the backstage cancer in the WCW could never agree on anything.

Russo was a complete hack. but to denigrate Hogan, hall and Nash when they helped creatively bring WCW out of the depths of crap rasslin show to multimillion dollar company is harsh.

Yes they could not maintain the success. but they sure as hell created it.

WWF reacted by going even more over the top and realistic and ditching the cartoon storylines for the most part. Everyone won.

 

[sabremike]

There was a lot more to the fall of WCW than that.

Bischoff was effectively handcuffed starting in 1996 after the time warner merger.

His approach in 1995 was to go from cartoony wrestling demographic of 8 to 14 year olds that the WWE dominated to a more realistic approach targeting 18 to 39 year old men. And he did that with aplomb with Hogan, Hall and Nash for a good while before it started going downhill. They took WCW from nobodies to beating the WWF for 2 straight years.

But in 1996 the corporate execs demanded they turn their product to target the 8 to 16 year old demographic again.

Yes once the handcuffs were on and creative options were drastically limited, the backstage cancer in the WCW could never agree on anything.

Russo was a complete hack. but to denigrate Hogan, hall and Nash when they helped creatively bring WCW out of the depths of crap rasslin show to multimillion dollar company is harsh.

Yes they could not maintain the success. but they sure as hell created it.

WWF reacted by going even more over the top and realistic and ditching the cartoon storylines for the most part. Everyone won.

Did the Time Warner handcuffs cause Hogan to deliberately sabotage the Starcade 97 main event by telling Nick Patrick not to do the planned fast count and basically killing Sting dead and making Bret Hart look like an idiot?

Did the Time Warner handcuffs cause those three to come up with the idiotic beating of Goldberg at the following year's Starcade (after which both Bobby Heenan and Mike Tenay after the show ended both agreed that moment had effectively killed the company) which then led to one of the biggest disasters in wrestling history with the Fingerpoke of Doom that was the single moment you can point to as to where the company fell off a cliff never to recover?

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

Did the Time Warner handcuffs cause Hogan to deliberately sabotage the Starcade 97 main event by telling Nick Patrick not to do the planned fast count and basically killing Sting dead and making Bret Hart look like an idiot?

Did the Time Warner handcuffs cause those three to come up with the idiotic beating of Goldberg at the following year's Starcade (after which both Bobby Heenan and Mike Tenay after the show ended both agreed that moment had effectively killed the company) which then led to one of the biggest disasters in wrestling history with the Fingerpoke of Doom that was the single moment you can point to as to where the company fell off a cliff never to recover?

You're just repeating yourself. It's clear he mentions that the backstage cancer of WCW could not be overcome. You're still discrediting a lot of success the people noted have had in raising WCW up. Nobody is disputing those guys and WCW lost a lot of money. You seem to be disputing if they ever did make money in the first place.

A lot of WCW was crap and yet made money. A lot of WWE was crap and yet made money. The original point made by me is that you were pushing a narrative that money drawn can be an indicator of quality, which is a narrative pushed by Nash, Hogan, Hall, etc usually to excuse criticism. The amount of money drawn being an indicator of quality is pretty suspect.

 

[sabremike]

You're just repeating yourself. It's clear he mentions that the backstage cancer of WCW could not be overcome. You're still discrediting a lot of success the people noted have had in raising WCW up. Nobody is disputing those guys and WCW lost a lot of money. You seem to be disputing if they ever did make money in the first place.

A lot of WCW was crap and yet made money. A lot of WWE was crap and yet made money. The original point made by me is that you were pushing a narrative that money drawn can be an indicator of quality, which is a narrative pushed by Nash, Hogan, Hall, etc usually to excuse criticism. The amount of money drawn being an indicator of quality is pretty suspect.

And this whole debate was over an angle that completely sucked, was the most gutter level cheap heat that takes absolutely no talent whatsoever, made the promotion look sleazy as all hell and drove fans away. There have been great products that failed to make money (ECW). There have been horrible products that made tons of money (Late 90's AAA under Pena). The Gangstas in SMW was neither.