Dan Girardi: Part IV

[DanielBrassard]

Yea I wrote up a whole response and then deleted it. But essentially it's not even a baseball comparison. It's a numerical comparison and I just used baseball as a tool because it has stats that are simple enough and do a good job at what we're trying to approximate. Obviously hockey stats aren't nearly far enough along to do anything like that but the same point still stands. It's the exact same thing for hockey as baseball. Girardi is worth some value X. Letang is worth some value Y. If they both played in the same amount of games I think we can all agree that Y >>> X. Letang is so much better that even by playing some decent percentage of games less he still likely provides more value. These curves are very right skew. There's a ton of players close together around and slightly above the zero point and then very very few as you reach far out where is closer to where Letang would be.



I have to say though a defensemans role isn't to "play defense." It's the same as every other player which is to do things that will provide the largest differential possible between GF and GA. That includes defense, offense, and all sorts of things. Nobody thinks Erik Karlsson at "defense" but he's still one of the best defenseman because of how great he is at doing other things. There's no effective difference between a player who say has true talent 4 GF/60, 3 GA/60 and a player who is 2 GF/60, 1 GA/60 except the first player is higher variance. In terms of expected value they are the same.

I didnt see the 2nd part of this post last night but this is pretty much the crux of the issue. Great point.

 

[cwede]

I didnt see the 2nd part of this post last night but this is pretty much the crux of the issue. Great point.

Replace Girardi w Letang and there aren't those 3 long playoff runs.
I believe that 100%.
I'll take what we got over what Letang (&Sid&Geno&MAF) have given their fans.

 

[Raspewtin]

Lol replace Girardi with Letang and we have at least 1 Stanley cup.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Lol replace Girardi with Letang and we have at least 1 Stanley cup.

Chart to prove it, please. Thanks in advance.

 

[bigbuffalo313]

Replace Girardi w Letang and there aren't those 3 long playoff runs.
I believe that 100%.

Wow, you couldn't be more wrong.

With Letang, we could of had the extra offence to put us over the top against LA

I'll take what we got over what Letang (&Sid&Geno&MAF) have given their fans.

You take no Cup over a Cup?

 

[K Fleur]

Replace Girardi w Letang and there aren't those 3 long playoff runs.
I believe that 100%.
I'll take what we got over what Letang (&Sid&Geno&MAF) have given their fans.

What exactly is that? The presidents trophy

 

[silverfish]

Lol replace Girardi with Letang and we have at least 1 Stanley cup.

Easy to say, hard to prove.

 

[sbjnyc]

Well that's the discourse between the two sides. Is good defense not allowing as many shots? Is good defense not allowing goals? Is good defense just based on what people saw? Theres not a single answer to that question. Personally I believe that if you are on the ice and are consistently giving up fewer shots, while taking context into account, then I could care less how it looks, you are doing a good job.

As far as quantifying value to a team as opposed to value, I dont get how the two are separate.

There are a number of ways to differentiate the 2. For example, are there any players who would provide more value to a different team than the one they're on? Hayes for example probably wasn't going to be particularly valuable to the hawks but he was certainly valuable to the Rangers. Talbot's value to a team depended largely on whether he would be the starter. Of course he wasn't going to sign an extension with a team to be a backup making it harder for the rangers to trade him.

 

[Raspewtin]

Chart to prove it, please. Thanks in advance.

Why should I waste my time using evidence when the Girardi fan club can't be bothered to do the same?

Easy to say, hard to prove.

The chances of us winning the cup in 2014 rise astronomically with Letang instead Girardi, then.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

Lol Letang wouldn't of helped us beat LA. We needed Scott Stevens.

 

[sbjnyc]

While I happen to like Girardi (even though I trade him all the time in NHL sims) he was awful in the SCF.

 

[Tawnos]

While I happen to like Girardi (even though I trade him all the time in NHL sims) he was awful in the SCF.

He wasn't as bad as people are making him out to be. He was also playing with a broken hand.

Ironically, given the conversation going on, injuries to Girardi have played a large role in the Rangers being eliminated in the last two playoffs.

 

[sbjnyc]

Turnover in OT game 1 leads to loss. Rangers defense in general just couldn't handle late pressure by the Kings. That to me is on the D. For whatever reason, the Rangers have been nearly unbeatable with leads in the regular season but not so much in the playoffs.

 

[Captain Lindy]

Easy to say, hard to prove.

Girardi had a horrible series vs the Kings in the Final. The Kings exploited it. I still have nightmares seeing him slide on his belly looking at the puck in our net. In all fairness to Girardi, though, he did improve for this past season's playoff run.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

While I happen to like Girardi (even though I trade him all the time in NHL sims) he was awful in the SCF.

The rangers D as a whole was awful in the SCF. The kings made our D their *****.

 

[Captain Lindy]

He wasn't as bad as people are making him out to be. He was also playing with a broken hand.

Ironically, given the conversation going on, injuries to Girardi have played a large role in the Rangers being eliminated in the last two playoffs.

He didn't have an injury during the Final in '14. I think he had an injury this year's playoffs. I remember everyone saying "WTF?" after hearing Girardi wasnt' injured based on his horrific play that year (13-14 season).

 

[Tawnos]

Turnover in OT game 1 leads to loss. Rangers defense in general just couldn't handle late pressure by the Kings. That to me is on the D. For whatever reason, the Rangers have been nearly unbeatable with leads in the regular season but not so much in the playoffs.

That turnover doesn't happen if Girardi is healthy. The puck clearly didn't go where he intended it to. That kind of play is super rare for him.

I don't think you can isolate the D for the blame. Forward support in the D zone basically evaporated and forward pressure in the O zone was non-existent. Some of that was coaching. Some of that is on the forwards.

 

[Captain Lindy]

That turnover doesn't happen if Girardi is healthy. The puck clearly didn't go where he intended it to. That kind of play is super rare for him.

I don't think you can isolate the D for the blame. Forward support in the D zone basically evaporated and forward pressure in the O zone was non-existent. Some of that was coaching. Some of that is on the forwards.

Girardi WAS healthy during the Cup Final.

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

He wasn't as bad as people are making him out to be. He was also playing with a broken hand.

Ironically, given the conversation going on, injuries to Girardi have played a large role in the Rangers being eliminated in the last two playoffs.

Not in the 13-14 playoffs.

Girardi turning the puck over to LA and them scoring in OT of game one of the SCF also helped the Rangers get eliminated in one of the past two playoffs. McDonagh being injured(aka PLAYING ON A BROKEN FOOT ) and Zucc being out was a hell of a lot more big than worrying about Girardi.

 

[Tawnos]

He didn't have an injury during the Final in '14. I think he had an injury this year's playoffs. I remember everyone saying "WTF?" after hearing Girardi wasnt' injured based on his horrific play that year (13-14 season).

Sorry, we're both wrong, but you more than me. Girardi had a dislocated pinky, not a broken hand, during the 2014 playoffs. Injuries like that have a major effect on how you move the puck.

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

That turnover doesn't happen if Girardi is healthy. The puck clearly didn't go where he intended it to. That kind of play is super rare for him.

I don't think you can isolate the D for the blame. Forward support in the D zone basically evaporated and forward pressure in the O zone was non-existent. Some of that was coaching. Some of that is on the forwards.

Super rare because you don't want/have that guy handling the puck. He uses the puck like a school girl who is scared of a tennis ball.

 

[sbjnyc]

Sorry, we're both wrong, but you more than me. Girardi had a dislocated pinky, not a broken hand, during the 2014 playoffs. Injuries like that have a major effect on how you move the puck.

He either played well or he didn't. You want to say part of the reason he didn't play well is a pinky injury well OK that's your opinion. But if that's the case then why is he in the game? Coaching staff obviously thought it didn't have a major effect considering he got more ice time than everyone else aside from Hank and McD. And it's not like he botched every pass. I just don't think it's a valid excuse.

 

[Tawnos]

Super rare because you don't want/have that guy handling the puck. He uses the puck like a school girl who is scared of a tennis ball.

Do you really think a post like that is funny or you're being clever?

Anyway, Girardi has handled the puck successfully in that situation countless times. Injury or no, it's still an unforgettable mistake. These things happen. Game never should have been in OT in the first place. I don't blame Girardi alone for that loss. I blame the whole team.

 

[DanielBrassard]

The Girardi poll was locked. 73-1 in favor of Letang. Lol.

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

The Girardi poll was locked. 73-1 in favor of Letang. Lol.

Wait what? Where's the thread? lol.