Cycling

[smcgreg]

I will definitely look into the CP test, if nothing else for the data. Unfortunately, I don't see it as one of the tests on trainerroad. I'll find a way to do it though.

Ahh.. you're just getting your info from trainerroad. Got it. Well, if you're really interested in some deeper info, I'd suggest Allen and Coggan Training and Racing with a Power Meter. It provides the context for where FTP comes from and will give you a deeper understanding of the relationships between your different power/durations. It's a very good read if you''re into this stuff and does a nice job of blending the "scientific" with the more practical side of things. They also talk about CP in there. It's (CP) not terribly complicated, but again, the book will give you some context.

Ex-hockey player at this point. I don't have the time or patience for the 10 or 11pm beer league games anymore. I also much prefer to MTB at this point in my life.

Ahh.. well, for me, with a wife and two kids, plus a professional career and all the other associated "stuff", the only time available to work out is after 10 pm or at 6 am, so, might as well play hockey. Group rides aren't an option and after 20 yr, the trainer got a bit stale.

Well, I wasn't a naturally good athlete growing up. Did martial arts for several years and developed an okay athletic base. When I started powerlifting I could barely squat 225 to parallel (and I had done weight training for several years before that), but after a couple years of box squats and speed work I ended up around 485 @ 181 bodyweight. Currently weigh 164 and my FTP/kg is 3.45. My power curve is a little lopsided though as I can hold 1200 watts for 5 seconds and 800 for 20.

Hmm.. ok. Hard to say without "seeing" the details, but I'll take your word for it. Granted, on the other hand, science would say otherwise The interesting thing about hockey is (well actually a couple things), there is a place for a lot of different physiologies. It's "anaerobic", but you can't play well, or a lot, without some aerobic capacity. So, it lends itself to those who are a mix of both. One might expect the anaerobic capacity to be off the charts for high level hockey players, but in actuality, it's not, and good ones have better aerobic capacity than most expect. Also, since most can't just play anytime, like basketball, for example, focused training can make up for athletic deficiencies to a great extent. I don't know how many people I've heard say "I wasn't a great athlete, but I was "good" at hockey (good being relative). My point is, it sounds like you''re the typical hockey player, not gifted anaerobically, but ok, with some aerobic "talent" that is now translating to MTB.

Ironically, there are a lot of high level hockey players who have taken up triathlon and cycling and do quite well. Dougie Gilmore comes to mind as one who was into triathlon near the end of his career. I know there were other NHLers around the time that were into it as well.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Ahh.. you're just getting your info from trainerroad. Got it. Well, if you're really interested in some deeper info, I'd suggest Allen and Coggan Training and Racing with a Power Meter. It provides the context for where FTP comes from and will give you a deeper understanding of the relationships between your different power/durations. It's a very good read if you''re into this stuff and does a nice job of blending the "scientific" with the more practical side of things. They also talk about CP in there. It's (CP) not terribly complicated, but again, the book will give you some context.

Yeah, virtual power for now. I plan on getting a power meter in the future when those new generation ones at the $500 price point hit the consumer level. Appreciate the recommendations.

Hmm.. ok. Hard to say without "seeing" the details, but I'll take your word for it. Granted, on the other hand, science would say otherwise The interesting thing about hockey is (well actually a couple things), there is a place for a lot of different physiologies. It's "anaerobic", but you can't play well, or a lot, without some aerobic capacity. So, it lends itself to those who are a mix of both. One might expect the anaerobic capacity to be off the charts for high level hockey players, but in actuality, it's not, and good ones have better aerobic capacity than most expect. Also, since most can't just play anytime, like basketball, for example, focused training can make up for athletic deficiencies to a great extent. I don't know how many people I've heard say "I wasn't a great athlete, but I was "good" at hockey (good being relative). My point is, it sounds like you''re the typical hockey player, not gifted anaerobically, but ok, with some aerobic "talent" that is now translating to MTB.

Ironically, there are a lot of high level hockey players who have taken up triathlon and cycling and do quite well. Dougie Gilmore comes to mind as one who was into triathlon near the end of his career. I know there were other NHLers around the time that were into it as well.

I should have noted that I was a goaltender. Some games were a great workout; others not so much. Anyway, I was always a pretty good athlete, I just wasn't naturally that athletic (speed, strength, stamina, etc.) before I started serious strength and conditioning programs. I made up for it in work ethic for the most part to find my place. The leg strength and flexibility that I built up my whole life certainly made the transition to cycling easier.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Got out onto the trails today for a snow ride. We had to make our own tracks for the most part, so it ended up taking us 3 hours to go 8 miles. I swear though that we did the work of a 15-20 mile ride.

 

[Nunymare]

Well, I've been riding in freezing temperatures on snow and ice for a few months now so I think I'm ready for spring/summer. Unfortunately it looks like it'll be another few months.

 

[RayP]

Well, I've been riding in freezing temperatures on snow and ice for a few months now so I think I'm ready for spring/summer. Unfortunately it looks like it'll be another few months.

Yeah, it's either been cold, windy as ****, or rainy here. Ready for some decent weather conditions here for sure.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Got my ass handed to me in this morning's workout. Did the Sufferfest Revolver workout, which I did successfully about 10 days ago, but had a worse result. I increased the difficulty by 1%, which I try to do every week to make continual progress, but I just kind of hit the wall today. I'm exaggerating to some degree since in actuality I only did about 2% worse than my previous effort, but I took some extra rest during the rest intervals and just felt very crushed pretty much the whole time. I'm sure some of it is just the cumulative effect of the workouts earlier in the week, but ouch!

 

[Nunymare]

Yeah, it's either been cold, windy as ****, or rainy here. Ready for some decent weather conditions here for sure.

Those shouldn't be any excuses.

Roads here are really slushy and makes for a long cleanup session after every ride. Not a fan. Almost got hit the other day by someone who thought they could make a left turn from a side street onto the road I was coming down too...

I need to get some more mileage in... was just looking at last year's mileage at this time and I was putting way more in. Maybe that's why I've gained weight. Maybe a long weekend ride is in order... haven't done one of those in a while.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Those shouldn't be any excuses.

Roads here are really slushy and makes for a long cleanup session after every ride. Not a fan. Almost got hit the other day by someone who thought they could make a left turn from a side street onto the road I was coming down too...

I need to get some more mileage in... was just looking at last year's mileage at this time and I was putting way more in. Maybe that's why I've gained weight. Maybe a long weekend ride is in order... haven't done one of those in a while.

Do you use lights during the day? I'm a firm believer that bright, flashing lights (front & back) are absolutely essential to make sure that other motorists see you on the road. Don't forget, you're competing against the scenery, cellphones, and other distractions for their attention. Put the odds back in your favor with a good day lighting system. The cheapest insurance you'll ever buy.

 

[Nunymare]

Do you use lights during the day? I'm a firm believer that bright, flashing lights (front & back) are absolutely essential to make sure that other motorists see you on the road. Don't forget, you're competing against the scenery, cellphones, and other distractions for their attention. Put the odds back in your favor with a good day lighting system. The cheapest insurance you'll ever buy.

Not usually, but that's on my list. In this case however the driver clearly saw me waving at him not to go as he cut in front though. I'm used to it however... can't count the many times it's happened. Pretty sure most times it's a misjudgement of my speed/impatience.

 

[The Imp]

Made a rookie mistake today... Had a spinning class, was in class, all warmed up and good to go, and my feet began feeling wobbly. I went to click out my shoes - took a lot of effort.

I recently changed cleats (?) on the shoes, and I hadn't tightened them after first use. They almost came off in class.

Long story short, remember to re-tighten the cleats after the first time you use them.

 

[RayP]

Those shouldn't be any excuses.

Roads here are really slushy and makes for a long cleanup session after every ride. Not a fan. Almost got hit the other day by someone who thought they could make a left turn from a side street onto the road I was coming down too...

I need to get some more mileage in... was just looking at last year's mileage at this time and I was putting way more in. Maybe that's why I've gained weight. Maybe a long weekend ride is in order... haven't done one of those in a while.

Shouldn't be, no... Although I will say I had been going really, really hard and working out almost 10 times a week. So a little rest was earned, especially since I'm running in a 15K a week from today, and need to get a few runs in this week before that since I have ran like 2-3 times basically since November 1st. Well, I do some running in these group fitness classes I take, but that's all on the treadmill.

After this race I'm going to find a triathlon to sign up for in the spring to train for. When I don't have a race to train for, I'm just so lost and don't know what to do.

 

[Nunymare]

Shouldn't be, no... Although I will say I had been going really, really hard and working out almost 10 times a week. So a little rest was earned, especially since I'm running in a 15K a week from today, and need to get a few runs in this week before that since I have ran like 2-3 times basically since November 1st. Well, I do some running in these group fitness classes I take, but that's all on the treadmill.

After this race I'm going to find a triathlon to sign up for in the spring to train for. When I don't have a race to train for, I'm just so lost and don't know what to do.

When's the race? I've also been thinking about a triathlon at some point in the future. Gotta brush up on the swimming though.

As for the biking, I've actually been able to get in some regular road rides recently, which is really nice. Unfortunately it's only a matter of time until our next snowstorm, as history dictates.

 

[RayP]

When's the race? I've also been thinking about a triathlon at some point in the future. Gotta brush up on the swimming though.

As for the biking, I've actually been able to get in some regular road rides recently, which is really nice. Unfortunately it's only a matter of time until our next snowstorm, as history dictates.

I have a 15K this Sunday, and am trying to sign up for one of two 1/2 Ironmans in the beginning of April, and then I'm already signed up for one in September as well.

I've also got to get back into the pool, but dumped my gym membership that had a pool (was too pricey, and I never went) but haven't signed up for a cheaper one with a pool yet.

And nice, it's been nearly 2 weeks since I've been on the bike at this point, but I'm back to exercising. After the 15K I'll get back on the bike, I just needed to get some runs in before the race. Ran a 10K yesterday and did so at a bit better of a pace than I expected - about 8:10 per mile. I think my only goal for the 15K will just to have fun, and finish under 8:30... but it's a really big race, so the first few miles might be so slow that it might not even be up to me... And if that is the case, then I'm not even going to pay attention to pace and just have fun with it.

 

[RayP]

Back on the bike yesterday for the first time in over a week. Weather was miserable, but it just nice to be back on the bike.

 

[UnrealMachine]

I'm still on the trainer regularly, but it's XC skiing season here (more accurately 1-hr east of here) so that's my (weekend) outdoor activity for now.

 

[RayP]

I really really need to figure out a way to improve my speeds on the bike. Today's pace was really disappointing, considering it was decent weather and legs were about as fresh as I can ever expect them to be.

 

[The Imp]

Interval training, Ray. Mix intervals with long rides.

 

[RayP]

Yeah, I started that about 2-3 weeks ago. I've also been taking more recovery time between rides. Just pissed and annoyed I not only have not seen an improvement, but have been regressing slightly.

I've been doing lots and lots of sprints, on a treadmill with and without incline. Have seen noticeable differences there. Have also been adding a lot of explosive squats.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Yeah, I started that about 2-3 weeks ago. I've also been taking more recovery time between rides. Just pissed and annoyed I not only have not seen an improvement, but have been regressing slightly.

I've been doing lots and lots of sprints, on a treadmill with and without incline. Have seen noticeable differences there. Have also been adding a lot of explosive squats.

It takes some time to see improvement, but there is also a fine line to walk that could lead to overtraining and thus regression. What kind of speed are you looking for? It sounds like you are "just" trying to increase your overall pace, in which you would need a more specific training program. Sprint intervals and VO2 max work will help, but you need at least some structure to it. Just off the top of my head, something like:

Mon: 15-30 second sprints (with a rest interval of 3-4 times the length of the sprint)
Wed: 5 minute intervals (equal or slightly longer rest intervals)
Fri: 10-20 minute intervals
Sat: Recovery/technique work

That's not even a real program, but something like that over 6-8 weeks would definitely improve your FTP, and thus your pace. If you just try to ride at a faster pace every ride you will eventually hit a wall or, in general, just not progress very much. You need to practice intervals at well above your normal pace/threshold.

To get an idea, scroll down to the workout details in one of the Sufferfest videos that emphasizes VO2 max work: http://www.thesufferfest.com/training-video/nine-hammers-dec-18/. "Threshold" refers to the wattage that you could theoretically hold for 60 minutes (your FTP).

 

[RayP]

It takes some time to see improvement, but there is also a fine line to walk that could lead to overtraining and thus regression. What kind of speed are you looking for? It sounds like you are "just" trying to increase your overall pace, in which you would need a more specific training program. Sprint intervals and VO2 max work will help, but you need at least some structure to it. Just off the top of my head, something like:

Mon: 15-30 second sprints (with a rest interval of 3-4 times the length of the sprint)
Wed: 5 minute intervals (equal or slightly longer rest intervals)
Fri: 10-20 minute intervals
Sat: Recovery/technique work

That's not even a real program, but something like that over 6-8 weeks would definitely improve your FTP, and thus your pace. If you just try to ride at a faster pace every ride you will eventually hit a wall or, in general, just not progress very much. You need to practice intervals at well above your normal pace/threshold.

To get an idea, scroll down to the workout details in one of the Sufferfest videos that emphasizes VO2 max work: http://www.thesufferfest.com/training-video/nine-hammers-dec-18/. "Threshold" refers to the wattage that you could theoretically hold for 60 minutes (your FTP).

Yeah, I want to get my pace consistently in the 19mph range, for a 30-60 mile ride. Yesterday I was at 17.5, although I had quite a few stops along the way that counted against my time and pace.

I really need to do better at making myself do sprints on the bike itself.

Now I thought I recall you saying you do those videos at home, right? I see they have a licensed studio of theirs in Atlanta, that I have always been curious about as they market towards triathletes.. but have never actually done it. I might have to get off my ass and finally head their way.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Yeah, I want to get my pace consistently in the 19mph range, for a 30-60 mile ride. Yesterday I was at 17.5, although I had quite a few stops along the way that counted against my time and pace.

I really need to do better at making myself do sprints on the bike itself.

Now I thought I recall you saying you do those videos at home, right? I see they have a licensed studio of theirs in Atlanta, that I have always been curious about as they market towards triathletes.. but have never actually done it. I might have to get off my ass and finally head their way.

Yeah, you're essentially going to have to do intervals at a pace greater than 19 mph if sustaining 19 mph is your short-term goal. Climbing would help you there too (find some climbs that take 5-10 minutes and attack them).

Yes, I do the workouts at home on my trainer. I think doing them in a group setting would be awesome though. One of the reasons I took my indoor training to the next level this fall was because of a spin class my gf and I went to. The instructor was very motivating and I ended up getting a very intense workout. I was surprised because it was the end of MTB season and I was in pretty good shape, but I was raking my brain to remember the last time I had a 60 minute session as intense as that. Then I found Sufferfest & Trainerroad and it opened a whole new world of structured training for me. The real test will be around March/April when regular MTB starts up again and I compare my climbs to last year's best results.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Just wanted to add, if you were thinking of going to that training studio soon, I would NOT recommend going this Saturday. The Tour of Sufferlandria is this week and on Saturday they are running the Dame Alissa Memorial Stage (Revolver + Violator + Half is Easy). Any individual workout of those three is enough to induce vomiting, so you'd have to be bat**** crazy to try all three in a row on your first go. http://www.thesufferfest.com/tour-sufferlandria-2015/

 

[RayP]

Yeah, you're essentially going to have to do intervals at a pace greater than 19 mph if sustaining 19 mph is your short-term goal. Climbing would help you there too (find some climbs that take 5-10 minutes and attack them).

Yes, I do the workouts at home on my trainer. I think doing them in a group setting would be awesome though. One of the reasons I took my indoor training to the next level this fall was because of a spin class my gf and I went to. The instructor was very motivating and I ended up getting a very intense workout. I was surprised because it was the end of MTB season and I was in pretty good shape, but I was raking my brain to remember the last time I had a 60 minute session as intense as that. Then I found Sufferfest & Trainerroad and it opened a whole new world of structured training for me. The real test will be around March/April when regular MTB starts up again and I compare my climbs to last year's best results.

I'll have to see what I can do about finding hills I can climb for 5-10 minutes at a time.

Structure is big with me. I need it, without it, my training in general just kind of turns into maintenance rather than improving.

Just wanted to add, if you were thinking of going to that training studio soon, I would NOT recommend going this Saturday. The Tour of Sufferlandria is this week and on Saturday they are running the Dame Alissa Memorial Stage (Revolver + Violator + Half is Easy). Any individual workout of those three is enough to induce vomiting, so you'd have to be bat**** crazy to try all three in a row on your first go. http://www.thesufferfest.com/tour-sufferlandria-2015/

That sounds like something stupid that I would do, but luckily enough for me I am busy tomorrow and won't be able to do it... But I think I'm going to stop in there and talk with them, and figure out when and how would be best to start going there maybe once a week or so.

I'm not doubting how tough these are, but man, you make them sound really really difficult. Excites me.

 

[UnrealMachine]

I'll have to see what I can do about finding hills I can climb for 5-10 minutes at a time.

No hard rule for the time, but something in that range would be good. Even a very tough 2:30 climb would be useful. Just keep repeating it

Structure is big with me. I need it, without it, my training in general just kind of turns into maintenance rather than improving.

I'd say that's true for most people. You don't even know it's happening until you see your results 2 months later and the needle has barely moved.

That sounds like something stupid that I would do, but luckily enough for me I am busy tomorrow and won't be able to do it... But I think I'm going to stop in there and talk with them, and figure out when and how would be best to start going there maybe once a week or so.

I'm not doubting how tough these are, but man, you make them sound really really difficult. Excites me.

Well, they *are* meant to be very difficult and the workouts are designed by a professional coach. Probably the best way to evaluate them is on their rated "intensity factor". Trainerroad defines that as: This is how intense a ride is. A ride with an Intensity Factor of 1.0 would equal an all out effort for an hour. If you did an hour at .8 IF that means it was about an 80% effort." To expand upon that, anything over a 0.8 is going to be a pretty hard session. The Sufferfest videos are mostly in the 0.9-1.05 range. Revolver, Violator and Half is Easy are rated 1.07, 1.06 and 0.9, respectively.

 

[RayP]

No hard rule for the time, but something in that range would be good. Even a very tough 2:30 climb would be useful. Just keep repeating it



I'd say that's true for most people. You don't even know it's happening until you see your results 2 months later and the needle has barely moved.



Well, they *are* meant to be very difficult and the workouts are designed by a professional coach. Probably the best way to evaluate them is on their rated "intensity factor". Trainerroad defines that as: This is how intense a ride is. A ride with an Intensity Factor of 1.0 would equal an all out effort for an hour. If you did an hour at .8 IF that means it was about an 80% effort." To expand upon that, anything over a 0.8 is going to be a pretty hard session. The Sufferfest videos are mostly in the 0.9-1.05 range. Revolver, Violator and Half is Easy are rated 1.07, 1.06 and 0.9, respectively.

Yeah, I'm going to try a new route tomorrow.

Wow, all out for an hour? That's insane. I was just looking at that studios classes, and I'm going to probably take a class next week. Drop in classes are $20, so that's not too bad. If I like it, I'll probably buy a 10 pack of classes or whatever. Just gotta figure out which class to take now.

I read something on their site that makes it look like they have bikes they provide, but that you can also bring your own... I'm assuming most people bring their own to something like this?