Cyberpunk 2077 - New RPG by CD PROJEKT RED

[aleshemsky83]

It shouldn't be normal, and I'd love to see these quotes. 80-100 work weeks are exceedingly unhealthy, and inhumane, no matter the industry, no matter the compensation, point blank period.

How Fortnite’s success led to months of intense crunch at Epic Games

“It is a hard, grindy, crunchy life,” said one source. “Everyone understands. You are being paid more money than most people will ever make in their careers anywhere else. Your time is bought and accounted for; shut up, keep your head down, and do the work.

“Most employees don’t mind crunching if you are giving them three times their salary in bonuses. A lot of people leave. They come in, think to themselves ‘I am gonna stick it out for four bonus checks, and then I am out’

100 hours is pretty unlikely, I wouldnt doubt 60-70 hours, that's pretty normal for season work. I'd agree the 100 hour range is where it would get pretty difficult for a lot of people.

Again, this is seasonal, I think CD project actually officially announced through a statement to Schrier when the crunch was beginning, it might have only been a few months ago I'd have to dig up the date.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I mean I did weeks on weeks of 12-13 hour shifts 6-7 days a week for months at a time in Northern Alberta. People do a lot of things for money. I was paid well enough that it was worth it to me, hopefully these people are paid accordingly for the personal sacrifices they are making and that is the problem if they aren't and not the hours themselves.

If people WANT to work 12-13 hours a day every day, I'm not one to stop them. It's objectively unhealthy, but their choice. Involuntary crunch, however, whether it's to meet or deadline or survive, is inhumane, and if you have to work 80+ hours to make ends meet (idk if it was voluntary or not on your part, just saying in general), well, that's part of a much bigger philosophical issue than specifically game developers enforcing mandatory crunch.​

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

How Fortnite’s success led to months of intense crunch at Epic Games

“It is a hard, grindy, crunchy life,” said one source. “Everyone understands. You are being paid more money than most people will ever make in their careers anywhere else. Your time is bought and accounted for; shut up, keep your head down, and do the work.

“Most employees don’t mind crunching if you are giving them three times their salary in bonuses. A lot of people leave. They come in, think to themselves ‘I am gonna stick it out for four bonus checks, and then I am out’

100 hours is pretty unlikely, I wouldnt doubt 60-70 hours, that's pretty normal for season work. I'd agree the 100 hour range is where it would get pretty difficult for a lot of people.

Again, this is seasonal, I think CD project actually officially announced through a statement to Schrier when the crunch was beginning, it might have only been a few months ago I'd have to dig up the date.

"Put your head down and accept it" doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement to me.

 

[aleshemsky83]

Cyberpunk 2077 dev breaks promise, will force employees to work six days a week

So the crunch started in late September. 2-3 months (it should have been 2 months which I think you can blame on management for sure) of overtime is not the end of the world.

"Put your head down and accept it" doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement to me.

at the very least, it's an endorsement of the pay and that many people can consider it worth it. Especially for low job security roles like QA.

Also let me clarify, I'm not saying it's right, but this is not a human rights abuse, lol, let's keep it in proportion

 

[TheBeastCoast]

If people WANT to work 12-13 hours a day every day, I'm not one to stop them. It's objectively unhealthy, but their choice. Involuntary crunch, however, whether it's to meet or deadline or survive, is inhumane, and if you have to work 80+ hours to make ends meet (idk if it was voluntary or not on your part, just saying in general), well, that's part of a much bigger philosophical issue than specifically game developers enforcing mandatory crunch.​

I just made a personal decision. Work like an absolute dog for 3 months and then get 3 months fully and completely off and then repeat. These people being asked to crunch at release isnt the issue. In my opinion anyways. Long hours is the reality in many many professions. The actual problem is employers that dont compensate people for that extra time properly.

 

[Bjorn Le]

The game got delayed after it went gold?? This is just screaming a huge red flag and a disaster at release...definitely will NOT be a first day buy for me anymore. I'll watch and see how it does when it's released but i'm pretty sure it will not be good.

What a horrible take.

All this means is they have a bug(s) that they don’t feel like comfortable shipping before it’s fixed for a Day 1 patch. If it was a really bad problem the game would have been delayed more than three weeks.

 

[Osprey]

What a horrible take.

All this means is they have a bug(s) that they don’t feel like comfortable shipping before it’s fixed for a Day 1 patch. If it was a really bad problem the game would have been delayed more than three weeks.

I see nothing wrong with what he said. Buying Day 1 is always a gamble, but it's even more so in this case because we know for a fact that the game currently has a problem big enough to warrant a delay. Now, they may fix it completely in those three weeks... but they may not. You may have confidence that they will, but that doesn't mean that everyone should have the same confidence. To those who are already cautious and unwilling to "beta test" the game for CDPR, this news could be taken as a warning that they might want to wait to see if the launch is smooth before buying the game.

 

[Bjorn Le]

I see nothing wrong with what he said. Buying Day 1 is always a gamble, but it's even more so in this case because we know for a fact that the game currently has a problem big enough to warrant a delay. Now, they may fix it completely in those three weeks... but they may not. You may have confidence that they'll completely fix it by Day 1, but that doesn't mean that everyone should have the same confidence. To those who are already cautious and unwilling to "beta test" the game for CDPR, this news is a warning that they might want to wait to see if the launch is smooth before buying the game.

He said “I’m pretty sure it will not be good.”

That’s full stop, no exceptions, a horrible take.

Nothing we have been shown about the game suggests this to be true (and we’ve been shown a lot). Nothing in CDPR’s track record suggests this to be true. The fact that they are delaying the game means they are committing to fixing the bugs, which are guaranteed to be the issue here.

Perhaps the game will not be the masterpiece many expect it to be. But to assume it won’t be good at all because of delays? A horrible take and one that should not be taken seriously.

 

[Osprey]

He said “I’m pretty sure it will not be good.”

That’s full stop, no exceptions, a horrible take.

Nothing we have been shown about the game suggests this to be true (and we’ve been shown a lot). Nothing in CDPR’s track record suggests this to be true. The fact that they are delaying the game means they are committing to fixing the bugs, which are guaranteed to be the issue here.

Perhaps the game will not be the masterpiece many expect it to be. But to assume it won’t be good at all because of delays? A horrible take and one that should not be taken seriously.

I'm pretty sure that he meant that the launch won't be good, not that the game won't be. He talked about it potentially being a disaster at release and implied that he'll still buy it if it turns out to not be one. I think that you're focusing on and misinterpreting his last few words (which could've been a bit clearer).

 

[aleshemsky83]

I'm pretty sure that he meant that the launch won't be good, not that the game won't be. He talked about it potentially being a disaster at release and implied that he'll still buy it if it turns out to not be one. I think that you're focusing on and misinterpreting his last few words (which could've been a bit clearer).

It sounds like this delay is related to an issue with current gen consoles not being able to handle the game, so if that poster is getting the new Xbox or ps, it's a moot point

 

[The Crypto Guy]

I'm pretty sure that he meant that the launch won't be good, not that the game won't be. He talked about it potentially being a disaster at release and implied that he'll still buy it if it turns out to not be one. I think that you're focusing on and misinterpreting his last few words (which could've been a bit clearer).

I did indeed mean at release/launch.

 

[Osprey]

It sounds like this delay is related to an issue with current gen consoles not being able to handle the game, so if that poster is getting the new Xbox or ps, it's a moot point

That's why it's probably safer to assume that he's not getting it for a next-gen console. It's more likely that he's worried for good reason than for no reason.

 

[syz]

Well, I called this delay the last time they delayed it. Hurray for me, I guess. Canceled my preorder a while ago, though; game has looked less interesting every time they've shown it.

 

[RandV]

I just made a personal decision. Work like an absolute dog for 3 months and then get 3 months fully and completely off and then repeat. These people being asked to crunch at release isnt the issue. In my opinion anyways. Long hours is the reality in many many professions. The actual problem is employers that dont compensate people for that extra time properly.

As someone who's done small amounts of both types of "crunch" you're talking about here, it isn't anywhere near the same thing.

Working in the natural resource industry you're doing long hours of physical labour, but get a good nights rest at the end of the day and depending on the camp they'll feed you like kings. The hours are set the way there because you're up in the middle of nowhere so it's not like there's anything else you can do, and they make up for it by giving you as much time off as you are on. Like you said for yourself, 3 months on, 3 months off. It is also about the only line of work where with little training or education you can make a whole lot of money. If your fit and can handle the physical aspect of the job, then the only real challenge is the mind numbing boredom of it all.

Software on the other hand, if you have 3 month crunch then you don't get 3 months off after it. Unless you can take your annual vacation time it's right back to the regular 9:00-5:00 schedule. The work is extreme levels of being both mentally strenuous and physically unhealthy. Now keep in mind these are highly skilled professionals that could be making a lot of money in with their skills in other industries, and any software industry could have "crunch", but it remains particularly brutal in the video game industry because the studios can snatch up kids who are already passionate 'gamers' straight out of university and exploit the hell out of them. Burn them out and use them up and you have plenty of new grads ready to replace them.

The key point is only one of these above is unhealthy and legitimate exploitation. A human can adapt to the long physical labour and it becomes a really good gig. Look at the same line of work 100 years ago and you'll see it's become very worker friendly. Persistent software crunch on the other hand will just destroy a person. My deceased grandpa used to say 'back in my day you'd go down into the mine and they worked you until you either quit or went crazy'. Work camps today are thankfully long past that, but in the much younger video game industry that's where some of it is stuck at.

 

[aleshemsky83]

As someone who's done small amounts of both types of "crunch" you're talking about here, it isn't anywhere near the same thing.

Working in the natural resource industry you're doing long hours of physical labour, but get a good nights rest at the end of the day and depending on the camp they'll feed you like kings. The hours are set the way there because you're up in the middle of nowhere so it's not like there's anything else you can do, and they make up for it by giving you as much time off as you are on. Like you said for yourself, 3 months on, 3 months off. It is also about the only line of work where with little training or education you can make a whole lot of money. If your fit and can handle the physical aspect of the job, then the only real challenge is the mind numbing boredom of it all.

Software on the other hand, if you have 3 month crunch then you don't get 3 months off after it. Unless you can take your annual vacation time it's right back to the regular 9:00-5:00 schedule. The work is extreme levels of being both mentally strenuous and physically unhealthy. Now keep in mind these are highly skilled professionals that could be making a lot of money in with their skills in other industries, and any software industry could have "crunch", but it remains particularly brutal in the video game industry because the studios can snatch up kids who are already passionate 'gamers' straight out of university and exploit the hell out of them. Burn them out and use them up and you have plenty of new grads ready to replace them.

The key point is only one of these above is unhealthy and legitimate exploitation. A human can adapt to the long physical labour and it becomes a really good gig. Look at the same line of work 100 years ago and you'll see it's become very worker friendly. Persistent software crunch on the other hand will just destroy a person. My deceased grandpa used to say 'back in my day you'd go down into the mine and they worked you until you either quit or went crazy'. Work camps today are thankfully long past that, but in the much younger video game industry that's where some of it is stuck at.

No offense, but these arguments dont make a lot of sense lol. Working out (or even indoors near a bay door) in a northern alberta winter doing physical work is a cushy job while sitting in front of a computer, probably with a podcast going in one year is a meat grinder? Huh? What does the qualifications of a job have to do with the physical and mental demands? Not really that relevant. I also don't see how being bored in a camp bed is fine while being bored in a bed in your own home is some hellish nightmare. What's the difference. Who says you can't have 3 months off in software? You can quit, I dont think its against the law. If these people are so high skill they can find another job whenever they like. The truth is a lot of people in game development are actually low skill, whether its QA people or some devs who took a one year course at a technical college, there are low skill jobs in game dev. Its definitely a sought after job that allows a lot of young people to be exploited, I agree with that.

Not defending forced crunch to the reported 100 hours Schreier is reporting, just dont see where you're coming from on this one.

 

[Commander Clueless]

You know what helps with crunch?

Death threats.


Good times.


(That was sarcasm, in case you were wondering)


For reference: Cyberpunk 2077 devs are getting death threats over the delay | PC Gamer

 

[NyQuil]

A couple of points:

1. If you're concerned about the quality/playable state of a game, you should NEVER buy a game at launch. Why would you? It's a gamble because you're essentially purchasing something with no relevant information in terms of user reviews.

If you decide that you want to be part of that initial group of players who gets to experience everything without any real advance notice (and I'm not talking about demos/trailers), then you're gambling.

Personally, I can't remember the last time I bought a game at launch. Even with this game, that I'm eagerly anticipating, I might wait a week. Thank you Master of Orion 3.

2. No one will care about the launch date if the game is a classic.

You're always better off pissing people off by delaying than pissing them off with a terrible initial product.

Mass Effect: Andromeda ended up as a fine AAA experience but only once they fixed all of the egregious errors that were there at release. By then it was too late - its reputation was permanently sullied. I played it for free/cheap with my Origin subscription like a year later and I was pleasantly surprised.

Now, with some studios and developers, you have to think that financial revenues have to play a factor eventually. You can't keep burning money indefinitely. But in general, I don't really care about release delays.

 

[Knave]

I mean... three delays of an actual release date doesn't inspire confidence. Sure, internally delays happen all the time and even release dates can get pushed but when it comes to release dates, it's usually just once. Look at 343 industries and Halo. It was one delay, no new release date given just "2021" and Microsoft went in and started cleaning house of people they feel were responsible for this mismanagement.

 

[NyQuil]

I mean... three delays of an actual release date doesn't inspire confidence. Sure, internally delays happen all the time and even release dates can get pushed but when it comes to release dates, it's usually just once. Look at 343 industries and Halo. It was one delay, no new release date given just "2021" and Microsoft went in and started cleaning house of people they feel were responsible for this mismanagement.

People make the same arguments about "re-shoots" of films.

Guardians of the Galaxy and Avengers: Endgame both had reshoots that caused strokes in people who thought it automatically meant that the quality of the film was in question.

 

[Beau Knows]

Apparently this info is from a conference call:

"This situation is different" compared to previous changes to the deadline - the game for PC is ready and plays well on next-gen consoles and the company is finalizing the process concerning current gen consoles.

Not surprising that the difficulty seems to be with getting the game running well enough on the old systems.

One thing I see a lot of people bringing up is that we've never actually seen the game running on the Xbox One or PS4. It will be interesting to see how it runs and looks there, both the patched and unpatched version.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

A lot of these cross gen games are probably not going to run well on XB1 and PS4. I’m waiting until next gen to play a lot of them. Not surprising that a massive game like Cyberpunk might be having issues. It should be a next gen only game but you can’t ignore that install base.

 

[Commander Clueless]

A lot of these cross gen games are probably not going to run well on XB1 and PS4. I’m waiting until next gen to play a lot of them. Not surprising that a massive game like Cyberpunk might be having issues. It should be a next gen only game but you can’t ignore that install base.

Especially considering the next gen stock issues.

 

[CartographerNo611]

I mean... three delays of an actual release date doesn't inspire confidence. Sure, internally delays happen all the time and even release dates can get pushed but when it comes to release dates, it's usually just once. Look at 343 industries and Halo. It was one delay, no new release date given just "2021" and Microsoft went in and started cleaning house of people they feel were responsible for this mismanagement.

The game is done for PC. Porting a next Gen game to original Xbox One and PS4 is the cause for delay. The only internal thing that is problematic is Crunch time which happened under Witcher 3, Last of US 2, Rwd Dead 2, and etc. Hardly a 343 situation, relax lol. CDR had issues getting the Witcher 2 ported to Xbox 360 as well. They are a pc first developer.



Highly unlikely it gets delayed into 2021 since they have Polish government funding stipulations involved that mandated a 2021 release. They maybe able to get approval for a January 2022 release date for the PR spin.

 

[Static]

Cyberpunk 2077 dev breaks promise, will force employees to work six days a week

So the crunch started in late September. 2-3 months (it should have been 2 months which I think you can blame on management for sure) of overtime is not the end of the world.at the very least, it's an endorsement of the pay and that many people can consider it worth it. Especially for low job security roles like QA.

Also let me clarify, I'm not saying it's right, but this is not a human rights abuse, lol, let's keep it in proportion

Child labor used to be pretty normal as well. They also got paid. Same with 16 hour work days.

People cannot work 100 hour weeks and stay in good health. That is, in fact, a human rights issue.

 

[NyQuil]

I always liked this article on the development of a game by the BG 2 folks, Bioware, back when they were an industry standard and the two Canadian doctors were at the helm:

Gamasutra - Baldur's Gate II: The Anatomy of a Sequel