CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

[aqib]

Well, they are building MLS stadium next to Citi Field, which probably will host some events and concerts.

Yeah how many events has Red Bull Arena had outside of soccer?

The point remains that any metro area has a limit on the number of arenas it can support. If you think NY can host another major league arena fine. Then that makes 5. I think it's 4. Either way it's not 6 or 10.

Chicago has 2 + 1 minor one. LA (if you include Orange County) has 3 + 2 minor ones with a 4th major on the way. Phoenix has 2 major one + 2 minor ones. Even the local media in advance of the Tempe vote cast doubt on the arena being able to support a 3rd major one.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Chicago has 2 + 1 minor one. LA (if you include Orange County) has 3 + 2 minor ones with a 4th major on the way. Phoenix has 2 major one + 2 minor ones. Even the local media in advance of the Tempe vote cast doubt on the arena being able to support a 3rd major one.

Thats why they should have teamed up with Arizona State basketball team for Tempe Arena project.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Serious question, why are people so concerned about another arena in AZ, when it's not being funded by taxpayer dollars?

 

[ponder719]

Serious question, why are people so concerned about another arena in AZ, when it's not being funded by taxpayer dollars?

It's probably because most people don't believe a word Meruelo says, and expects that it will, eventually, require public money to complete.

 

[Isles72]

it may be mentioned elsewhere but I missed it .

Is Utah tied to the Roadrunners (and Mereullo owning them) as part of the sale conditions ?

 

[Fatass]

it may be mentioned elsewhere but I missed it .

Is Utah tied to the Roadrunners (and Mereullo owning them) as part of the sale conditions ?

Is that the AHL club? There was talk earlier in the thread about the AHL club playing in the college rink in place of the Coyotes.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

it may be mentioned elsewhere but I missed it .

Is Utah tied to the Roadrunners (and Mereullo owning them) as part of the sale conditions ?

yes, otherwise Tucson disappears per AHL BYLAWS.... which explicitly state any AHL Team must have an NHL PDC... which Tucson did w/Arizona since 2016 when the deal was brokered, they were not part of the transfer to SEG... JUST Arizona's hockey ops were transferred.... as of now all 32 teams are active and affiliated once Carolina reestablished their PDC w/ Chicago.... Tucson will retain the affiliation w/ Utah.... the only question outside of that is will SEG sign an affiliation contract w/ an ECHL Team (existing or expansion since Bloomington and Tahoe are here and start play in 2024/2025.... AZ/UT has not had an affiliate in the E since Atlanta (Gwinnett) in 2022 but it is not a requirement, but a suggested working agreement subject to the roster limits the ECHL has decreed... which is at least 1G/F/D under a 2 way contract.... there is also no veteran rule in the E as you hear referenced in the A.... It is expected AM will operate Tucson just as he has since 2016... the only thing that's on the immediate horizon is an arena lease extension at TCC which expires or needs to be extended by 2026/2027....

 

[TheLegend]

it may be mentioned elsewhere but I missed it .

Is Utah tied to the Roadrunners (and Mereullo owning them) as part of the sale conditions ?

Yes.

Tucson is still the affiliate and Meruelo retained ownership.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

It's probably because most people don't believe a word Meruelo says, and expects that it will, eventually, require public money to complete.

I think that's the biggest issue facing the NHL and the Coyotes. I get that the NHL were faced with an issue and they essentially had to keep him on but I have no idea how they expect anyone local to seriously get into business with this guy. His reputation is completely in the toilet.

 

[awfulwaffle]

It's probably because most people don't believe a word Meruelo says, and expects that it will, eventually, require public money to complete.

Look at the facts and the agreements......

 

[KevFu]

If that was the case MSG, OVG, or ASM would build one on St Johns campus or next to Citi Field.

They literally just built TWO new arenas in eight years, in better accessible places than Meadowlands and Nassau...

Yeah how many events has Red Bull Arena had outside of soccer? The point remains that any metro area has a limit on the number of arenas it can support.


If you think NY can host another major league arena fine. Then that makes 5. I think it's 4. Either way it's not 6 or 10. Chicago has 2 + 1 minor one. LA (if you include Orange County) has 3 + 2 minor ones with a 4th major on the way. Phoenix has 2 major one + 2 minor ones. Even the local media in advance of the Tempe vote cast doubt on the arena being able to support a 3rd major one.

I divided your post in half, because no one is disputing the first part.

The dispute here is over how you determine the line. Those of us who sound like we're arguing with you are saying there's so many variables, that it would be impossible to know where the line is without some kind of complex math formula based on objective data that really only some kind of an event management expert could estimate. Versus "just counting sports venues" which is closer to what you're doing.

It's not even a one-for-one. "Events" is too broad.

Venues are all different, built for different purposes and configurations. And those things can take some kinds of events completely off the table. Whether it be "We need an oval shape, our show doesn't work in a boxy arena" or "the roof prevents those seats from seeing our video board show" or "we don't mess with arenas that don't have permanent ice plants" or "it's too tight to get our equipment to that downtown arena, so we just don't play there."

We have no idea how many events AREN'T taking place that could be taking place.

Because an arena isn't opening for an event if it won't make money off that event, it stands to reason that because of the cost of arenas, we don't have any way to test an upper limit at all. It's easy to point to Vegas and NYC as "Well, they have the need because NYC has 20m people and Vegas gets 40m visitors a year." But when you math out events to population, there's really no correlation of "it's one arena per 5 million people" or anything like that.

It's a person/relationship business. If the arena is waiting for calls to rent out the building, that's one number of events; if you have people in either arena or city roles who are actively trying to bring stuff to the arena and city, it's a totally different number.

 

[aqib]

Serious question, why are people so concerned about another arena in AZ, when it's not being funded by taxpayer dollars?

We're discussing the viability of the project and the odds of it getting done. Muruelo is not Steve Ballmer. He can't just cut a check for $3 billion because he feels like it. So he has to convince investors this is a good idea.

I am not concerned as much as I am entertained. I don't wake up in the middle in a cold sweat gong "how is this arena deal going to work"

Once the Hamilton move got squashed and the Thrashers wound up in Winnipeg it's just been pure entertainment for me. Especially Bettman have to twist himself into a pretzel trying to justify everything.

 

[aqib]

They literally just built TWO new arenas in eight years, in better accessible places than Meadowlands and Nassau...

I divided your post in half, because no one is disputing the first part.

The dispute here is over how you determine the line. Those of us who sound like we're arguing with you are saying there's so many variables, that it would be impossible to know where the line is without some kind of complex math formula based on objective data that really only some kind of an event management expert could estimate. Versus "just counting sports venues" which is closer to what you're doing.

It's not even a one-for-one. "Events" is too broad.

Venues are all different, built for different purposes and configurations. And those things can take some kinds of events completely off the table. Whether it be "We need an oval shape, our show doesn't work in a boxy arena" or "the roof prevents those seats from seeing our video board show" or "we don't mess with arenas that don't have permanent ice plants" or "it's too tight to get our equipment to that downtown arena, so we just don't play there."

We have no idea how many events AREN'T taking place that could be taking place.

Because an arena isn't opening for an event if it won't make money off that event, it stands to reason that because of the cost of arenas, we don't have any way to test an upper limit at all. It's easy to point to Vegas and NYC as "Well, they have the need because NYC has 20m people and Vegas gets 40m visitors a year." But when you math out events to population, there's really no correlation of "it's one arena per 5 million people" or anything like that.

It's a person/relationship business. If the arena is waiting for calls to rent out the building, that's one number of events; if you have people in either arena or city roles who are actively trying to bring stuff to the arena and city, it's a totally different number.

They built 2 and then closed 2 others that's the point. UBS basically killed off Nassau being viable for even minor events.

Now I wish Killian was still around because he had a background in this.

As far as testing the upper limits goes, I am sure that the companies that build and operate venues have this figured out. There is a reason why there are people looking at San Diego with no NBA or NHL team coming there. Similarly there is a reason why the old Cavs arena was torn down even though it was structurally fine. There was never going to be enough business for 2 big arenas in that market. You have Glendale with no permanent tenant so it's basically free 365 days a year. Footprint is free more than 300 days a year. So you basically have 665 arena nights that promoters can pick from. You're telling me that's not enough capacity for a market the size of Phoenix? What comparable size market has more than 2 arenas?

 

[TheLegend]

We're discussing the viability of the project and the odds of it getting done. Muruelo is not Steve Ballmer. He can't just cut a check for $3 billion because he feels like it. So he has to convince investors this is a good idea.

I am not concerned as much as I am entertained. I don't wake up in the middle in a cold sweat gong "how is this arena deal going to work"

Once the Hamilton move got squashed and the Thrashers wound up in Winnipeg it's just been pure entertainment for me. Especially Bettman have to twist himself into a pretzel trying to justify everything.

He just got a $1 billion check for his hockey-ops department and 50 player contracts.

 

[LPHabsFan]

He just got a $1 billion check for his hockey-ops department and 50 player contracts.

Minus all the debt associated with the team......

Also, what we're seeing right now is the most Megathread of Megathrediness. The team has actually moved, and there are still conversations happening that have very little to do with the actual team/situation.

 

[Stumbledore]

Look at the facts and the agreements......

I really love your new avatar. It's heartbreaking, but very sweet.

 

[awfulwaffle]

We're discussing the viability of the project and the odds of it getting done. Muruelo is not Steve Ballmer. He can't just cut a check for $3 billion because he feels like it. So he has to convince investors this is a good idea.

I am not concerned as much as I am entertained. I don't wake up in the middle in a cold sweat gong "how is this arena deal going to work"

Once the Hamilton move got squashed and the Thrashers wound up in Winnipeg it's just been pure entertainment for me. Especially Bettman have to twist himself into a pretzel trying to justify everything.

You do realize this project is more than just an arena, right? Even if there isn't an event, people will still be living there, businesses will still be doing business.

 

[Llama19]

Everything You Need to Know About the Coyotes’ Second Chance at NHL Life

To quote:

"Months after graduating from USC, Alex Meruelo Jr. was slotted in to the Coyotes’ front office when his father bought the team in 2019. Alex Jr. has been the Coyotes’ chief brand officer since ’21, and he had access to the team’s official X account, two sources with knowledge of the situation tell FOS.

That’s relevant because, those sources say, it was Alex Jr. who was behind a now deleted X post April 10 that read, “Committed to keeping Coyotes Hockey in the desert & building an arena in Phoenix.” That post, which included a sizzle reel of hockey action and derided “the detractors,” drew broad criticism from fans who knew they were watching their hockey team slip away. The team’s relocation became official seven days later.

Alex Meruelo Jr. was a more constant presence around the team office than his father in recent years, including last year’s failed referendums in Tempe.

“That guy was a [expletive] disaster,” a source who worked on the referendum campaign tells FOS.

Another source says Alex Meruelo Jr. didn’t “grow into the job,” and there were questions among team employees about what he actually did. "

Source: frontofficesports.com/everything-to-know-about-the-coyotes-second-chance-at-nhl-life/

 

[aqib]

You do realize this project is more than just an arena, right? Even if there isn't an event, people will still be living there, businesses will still be doing business.

The arena is probably about $1 billion by itself. If he just wanted to do a $2 billion development that wouldn't be a hockey story or even remotely interesting to anyone here outside of Phoenix.

 

[mouser]

The accountants for pro sports teams are listing PLAYERS as depreciating assets.

The Clippers have Russell Westbrook, James Harden and Kawhi Leonard on their roster. It’s a who’s who list of depreciating assets.

 

[JimAnchower]

Yeah how many events has Red Bull Arena had outside of soccer?

The point remains that any metro area has a limit on the number of arenas it can support. If you think NY can host another major league arena fine. Then that makes 5. I think it's 4. Either way it's not 6 or 10.

Chicago has 2 + 1 minor one. LA (if you include Orange County) has 3 + 2 minor ones with a 4th major on the way. Phoenix has 2 major one + 2 minor ones. Even the local media in advance of the Tempe vote cast doubt on the arena being able to support a 3rd major one.

How are you defining major and minor arena? For Chicago, you have the United Center and Allstate Arena. I'm guessing you're defining these are "major". You also have Wintrust Arena (Sky and DePaul), Welsh-Ryan (Northwestern), Credit Union 1 Center (UIC), Gentile Center (Loyola), Jones Convocation Center (Chicago State), and Now Arena (Windy City Bulls). These all have capacities over 5,000. Wintrust, Now, and Credit Union 1 are over 10,000 for most events. Wintrust and Credit Union 1 are more than just college arenas, they host other events. Wintrust isn't even that close to DePaul's campus.

 

[awfulwaffle]

The arena is probably about $1 billion by itself. If he just wanted to do a $2 billion development that wouldn't be a hockey story or even remotely interesting to anyone here outside of Phoenix.

I don't think you understand, at all. AM even brought this up previously. The reason why they want a district is because the district will help cover the costs of the arena and team. If he was to simply build an arena, the team would be losing money, plain and simple. I don't think he's entirely worried about some empty nights in his shiny new toy. Again, it's his money, so his choice if he wants to spend it on an arena or not.

 

[aqib]

How are you defining major and minor arena? For Chicago, you have the United Center and Allstate Arena. I'm guessing you're defining these are "major". You also have Wintrust Arena (Sky and DePaul), Welsh-Ryan (Northwestern), Credit Union 1 Center (UIC), Gentile Center (Loyola), Jones Convocation Center (Chicago State), and Now Arena (Windy City Bulls). These all have capacities over 5,000. Wintrust, Now, and Credit Union 1 are over 10,000 for most events. Wintrust and Credit Union 1 are more than just college arenas, they host other events. Wintrust isn't even that close to DePaul's campus.

I define major as one that has the capacity for a major league (NHL/NBA) team and the bigger non-stadium concerts. I define minor as ones the smaller ones that host colleges bigger college programs (so Wintrust that hosts DePaul) and are around 10K. I forgot about Credit Union One and Now Arena.

Smaller than 10K you aren't getting many notable events.

 

[aqib]

I don't think you understand, at all. AM even brought this up previously. The reason why they want a district is because the district will help cover the costs of the arena and team. If he was to simply build an arena, the team would be losing money, plain and simple. I don't think he's entirely worried about some empty nights in his shiny new toy. Again, it's his money, so his choice if he wants to spend it on an arena or not.

Well its his and his investors money. Once you get investors it ceases to be a toy. Ballmer is worth over $100B so for him a $2B arena is a toy. For Muruelo its not. That's why this is so interesting to me

 

[sh724]

Eh, that's a little different because it was by design. Ballmer was able to spread the cost of the franchise purchase across the Clippers budget for many years, thereby allowing him to show losses which then allows him to LEGALLY avoid paying taxes on actual profits (the Clippers are certainly making money and have been for decades). He can even use these losses to offset other, personal tax liabilities.

Ballmer isn't the only pro-sports team owner to do this. Khan did it with Jacksonville years ago.

The Coyotes were almost certainly losing money, especially towards the end, and it had nothing to do with creative use of current tax laws.

All sports owners take advantage of the tax laws. I never said that the Yotes didn't lose money. My point is when "sources" say the Yotes have lost massive amounts of money every year and that they have seen the proof (without providing any actual evidence) that it shouldn't be taken at face value.