The hockey side was actually pretty solid. As far not speaking in public being a reason to discredit him, its more of a case of that making him not being up to the task of building an NHL franchise in Phoenix.
CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor
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BKIslandersFan
F*** off
I don’t think demand will be an issue if it is built within 5 boroughs. But like I said, real estate is the issue there. Nobody wants to go to Coliseum or Meadowlands because it’s hard to get there.
awfulwaffle
Registered User
Yes, I know, you want every owner to be out and on the front page of every paper, every billboard. It just doesn't always work that way(and doesn't have to). If he had someone(like I mentioned) to run the team and be the public speaker( obviously the last crew wasn't able to do so), people would probably have a different message.
Shoot, the NHL should have stepped in and offered help/support/guidance if they really were that concerned about their public image. I think because this is a message board where "hardcore" fans might gravitate to, it's a bigger issue than people are making it out to be with the way some of the things were. We don't really know exactly what was going on with the hotel rooms, etc. If the NHL partnered with certain hotels, you don't think they would step in with the AZ situation and say something to not lose those relationships? Cmon now.....
For those that want more info on sports teams "losses", here you go. The LA Clippers have lost $700MM in recent years according to their taxes.
www.propublica.org
When ppl say the Yotes lost $X don't take it at face value
Sports Team Owners Face New Scrutiny From IRS Over Tax Avoidance
A new campaign by the tax agency comes after ProPublica revealed how billionaires generate what can be hundreds of millions in tax savings by purchasing professional sports teams.
www.propublica.org
When ppl say the Yotes lost $X don't take it at face value
cbcwpg
Registered User
What each owner of a franchise needs to do is first figure out his market and what it is they want from ownership.
Some markets like Toronto, no one really cares who the ownership is. I know for my team, in the last 10 years people have only heard from the owner maybe once a year, and I don't remember anyone ever seeing him walking around at a game. But that works here.
Maybe Phoenix is a market where the owner has to be in the public, talking to people at games, shaking hands, listening what people have to say, etc. And if the owner isn't comfortable doing the public interaction, then find someone who can be the "face" of the franchise, someone the people can interact with.
Not every owner. Daryl Katz in Edmonton can hide all he wants. Craig Leipold can stay under the radar all day. However, you're talking about a situation where he bought into a chaotic situation and the team needed to build trust.
Now at first that may not have been so bad, except when you had a flurry of stories coming out that the team wasn't paying its bills and he was being portrayed as a deadbeat while he was asking Tempe to let him build a $2.1 billion development. Letting a guy who comes off like a mafia hitman doing the talking for you is a bad move. The comments coming out of Tempe that they didn't trust him and even PHNX Coyotes apologists are saying his lack of connection with the fans and general public was a problem.
awfulwaffle
Registered User
He had that, in Shane Doan. Owner could never be heard from again if you have someone like Shane out there talking to the fanbase. That was the easiest fix ever imaginable.
TheLegend
Hangman's booking agent... he'll do anything.
awfulwaffle
Registered User
XG was just fine. He was constantly speaking with the public, through the broadcasts. Honestly, they should have kept Ahron Cohen on board, he was amazing at connecting with the community. I think the issues run much deeper than just your wish of having an outspoken owner.
KevFu
Registered User
My point is that the limit on the number of arenas that does exist (we agree on that), is not a formula that anyone can actually use objective data for because that data simply does not exist.
YOU are making the determination that New York's limit is 4 major league arenas, because you're only really looking at "major league arenas" based on "who has a sports team in them."
The amount of events that people go to aren't limited to sports venues. We just only have the data for the sports venues, so that's what we count.
We have no data on how many events AREN'T happening in those venues when they're already booked and the arena manager had to tell a promoter "Sorry, we can't do that." All of which would be possible to put on if there was another arena.
It's also disingenuous to use an arena designed in the 1960s, that serves a small part of the market, as evidence of the limit of demand for venues in the NYC metro area. Is the Coliseum's usage falling off because of "lack of demand for arena usage" or because it's approaching 60 years old and has pretty much sucked since it opened? If Nassau opened a brand new one in it's place (maybe their own Sphere?) what would happen to the numbers?
The number of college basketball games played at the Islanders home arena rose drastically when they left the Coliseum (both times). Because it was a GOOD arena, not a bad arena. Notre Dame, Oklahoma State, St. Bonaventure and Auburn did a tournament in UBS. Those guys ain't played at NVMC since at least the 80s if ever.
awfulwaffle
Registered User
I think about events like Concerts. Sure, plenty are held in arenas. But you also have outdoor venues. Phoenix has cricket pavilion, relentless beats puts on festivals at the race track, Maya day and nightclub, Orpheum theatre, the list can go in with how many things happen in phoenix and where they take place. Not sure why the focus is so narrow on arenas(and what billionaires are willing to spend on them).
ponder719
Abols to Abols, Dust to Dust
That said, having seen his performance at the final presser, are we really sure that more Meruelo would have helped the situation?
The flaw in the communications plan wasn't in hiring someone to do his talking for him; it was in choosing someone who also wasn't good enough at it to win the day.
KevFu
Registered User
Right, I agree. My point on "they don't need that many arenas" is that we have no idea how many events AREN'T HAPPENING because there isn't enough availability.
Or how many non-sports venues with 8000 capacity easily sell out, and who's promoters could try a bigger venue if there was one.
I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that "three arenas is too many" for Phoenix, when there's 6 million people, and to fill an 18,000 seat arena you just need 0.003% of the population to be interested in the same thing and the same time.
It's probably not even the THING that couldn't get 18,000. It's probably more the publicity of the thing that doesn't get 18,000 people to show up. (You see some dude posted fliers all over NYC saying "come watch me eat an entire canister of cheese balls in the park on Saturday at 3 pm" and like 300 to 500 people came to watch and cheered him on? That's insane).
Spring in Fialta
A malign star kept him
I can't believe I'm still reading folks defending those snakes in Arizona. Unreal. How many times do you have to get burnt? How many times do you have to hear the entire planet tell you these guys are losers for it to stick?
awfulwaffle
Registered User
If you think about ASU hockey, they have their arena(Mullet), Desert Diamond Arena, and if Muerelo builds a new arena, that's 3 sheets of hockey with good seating for attendance. Who knows, maybe the frozen four could someday come to Arizona and be held in those 3 rinks(or just AM's new baby).
I don't know if ASU still does the desert classic, when they first started out it was 3 visiting teams, and they played a little tournament over the weekend. Why couldn't Arizona, with the great weather in October, host a bigger tournament with more locations and invite more teams? I think it opens up more opportunities, than restricts the opportunities.
AM is Phoenix's only hope to bring back professional hockey in a decent amount of time, whether people like it or not. I'm willing to bet, those fans that are saying "F AM! I don't want him anywhere close to being owner" will probably be singing a different tune if he is somehow able to fulfill all his responsibilities tied to bringing back the Coyotes to AZ. I find it hard to believe that people can't learn from their mistakes, which obviously AM has some that he needs to learn from. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if it means him bringing back Coyotes hockey within the next 5 years.
sneakytitz
Registered User
For those that want more info on sports teams "losses", here you go. The LA Clippers have lost $700MM in recent years according to their taxes.
Sports Team Owners Face New Scrutiny From IRS Over Tax Avoidance
A new campaign by the tax agency comes after ProPublica revealed how billionaires generate what can be hundreds of millions in tax savings by purchasing professional sports teams.
When ppl say the Yotes lost $X don't take it at face value
Eh, that's a little different because it was by design. Ballmer was able to spread the cost of the franchise purchase across the Clippers budget for many years, thereby allowing him to show losses which then allows him to LEGALLY avoid paying taxes on actual profits (the Clippers are certainly making money and have been for decades). He can even use these losses to offset other, personal tax liabilities.
Ballmer isn't the only pro-sports team owner to do this. Khan did it with Jacksonville years ago.
The Coyotes were almost certainly losing money, especially towards the end, and it had nothing to do with creative use of current tax laws.
TheLegend
Hangman's booking agent... he'll do anything.
Doesn’t seem like much of an ask does it???
Makes TED look like a real bargain.
Makes TED look like a real bargain.
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awfulwaffle
Registered User
I also love the comments on that tweet. He outlines that the tax is for the entire city of SLC, not just that area where all of that stuff, including the heliport(what) would be.
KevFu
Registered User
I think that "a decent amount of time" is extremely subjective. When we're talking about expansion and new franchises, we saw that the NHL was going to begin considering expansion and going to 32, and we discussed/debated and followed the tea leaves until Las Vegas and Seattle emerged. And that was 2012-2015. We knew Seattle was coming next, and it still took eight years.
I'd say the majority of franchises who aren't cornerstone franchises work this way.
The accountants for pro sports teams are listing PLAYERS as depreciating assets.
TheLegend
Hangman's booking agent... he'll do anything.
$54 million per year for 30 years comes to around $1.6 billion. And that’s for starters
Meruelo’s GPLET for the arena portion would have ran 30 years, couldn’t have even been half that amount if you go by the $700 million number opposition people were throwing around over the entire project. And we’re talking about land that could sit another 30 years without making a dime at all.
You have 2 major league sized arenas both of which have been updated recently one of which doesn't have a full-time tenant. Then you have 2 smaller old ones (ASU and Vets) which can host smaller events. With those number of venues and available dates I doubt there is any event/concert promoter going "damn I would love to book a stop in Phoenix but I can't find a place"
If that was the case MSG, OVG, or ASM would build one on St Johns campus or next to Citi Field.
BKIslandersFan
F*** off
Well, they are building MLS stadium next to Citi Field, which probably will host some events and concerts.
Ernie
Registered User
- Aug 3, 2004
- 13,566
- 3,635
Both are absolutely a waste of taxpayers money.
It was obvious that Smith had this locked up politically from the get go. The borders between business, religion, and government can be non-existent in Utah.
The NHL, of course, LOVES the precedent this sets. The government gravy train for pro sports continues.
Ernie
Registered User
- Aug 3, 2004
- 13,566
- 3,635
Some excerpts from an article from last week (I'm not sure if it was linked to here):
www.sltrib.com
What we know about the $1 billion plan to keep hockey — and the Utah Jazz — downtown
The plan calls for significant changes to the Salt Palace Convention Center and could impact both historic Japantown and Abravanel Hall, a beloved center of the arts downtown.
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