CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

[Spydey629]

My memory on Minnesota is that they held the name the team contest and the top vote getter was “Northern Lights” but the NHL vetoed it over an objection from the Stars. The second place vote getter was “Blue Ox” but the Columbus expansion team had already settled on Blue Jackets. So they went with Wild, which came third.

It’s a really bad name and it is made worse by the fact that the team itself actively tried to be relatively staid and boring both on and off the ice. Their entire brand is old-fashioned Midwestern hockey and yet they have a name that sounds like an arena football team owned by the members of Motley Crue.

Even Motley Crue went safe... the team they owned was the Las Vegas Outlaws.

The LA Kiss on the other hand...


Count me in the 'please have an S' column. Five singular teams in this league is enough.

 

[Brodie]

I liked the howling head myself. Only Yotes jersey I have. But I also like the Kachina.

I think the weird thing about them is that they were very clearly designed to imitate the Red Wings jerseys down to the head having sort of a similar shape, which is a bad look. Especially once the Wings stopped being one of the prestige franchises in the sport

 

[rojac]

Who cares what the owners think?

Why can't the Senators acknowledge the Silver Sevens and Original Senators?

Why can't Vancouver acknowledge the Millionaires?

It doesn't impact your life. Stop complaining about other people being happy.

When did I say they couldn't acknowledge earlier teams. I was just saying those earlier teams would not be included in the current team's official NHL records. Teams can acknowledge whatever they like. Like the Canadiens who acknowledge the Montreal Expos and their retired numbers or Ottawa hangs the Stanley Cup banners of the Original Senators even though that team's records do not belong to the current Senators,

 

[rojac]

Even Motley Crue went safe... the team they owned was the Las Vegas Outlaws.

The LA Kiss on the other hand...


Count me in the 'please have an S' column. Five singular teams in this league is enough.

Aren't there only four (Avalanche, Lightning, Wild, and Kraken)?

 

[LadyStanley]

Louisiana Ice Gators and Kentucky Thoroblades are way up there too.

Kentucky Thoroughblades 1996-2001.

Interesting fact: When the NHL San Jose franchise polled fans for nicknames, Blades was the highest ranking. But they didn't go with that due to the gang/violence connotations. (So, when they purchased their AHL franchise in 1995, they included it in there.)

 

[Major4Boarding]

Every single developer in existence is looking for tax breaks, abatements, or incentives in general. So I take it you are against any and all developments perood?

Do those developers come out and say “it's privately funded, we're buying the land, we're paying for all of the building," and “I want to be very clear so people understand. (We’re) putting up the money to do this. We’re on the hook for it, and that is not the case with any other building in the state of Arizona. That somehow gets misconstrued... We were paying for it all”.

I mean, developers pretty much pay for it all anyway - I can’t remember a developer anywhere that just came out and openly said anything like the above though, before each project.

 

[Voight]

Who cares what the owners think?

Why can't the Senators acknowledge the Silver Sevens and Original Senators?

Why can't Vancouver acknowledge the Millionaires?

It doesn't impact your life. Stop complaining about other people being happy.

In those two cases, because there was such a large gap between NHL franchises I dont think the current teams should absorb the old teams history.

But for the Jets, they should.

 

[aqib]

Dan Gilbert likely had a lot to do w/ that... it's why he wanted a team in 2006... that was his solely not another ownership like SVSE (SJSE/Sharks Sports) and why he was awarded the I/AHL Grizzlies then, it wasn't until 2016 that the Cleveland name was attached

I was in Cleveland when the Gunds moved their minor league team out. I don't recall Gilbert wanting the Sharks affiliate out. Gilbert got control of the arena when he bought the Cavs. It didn't make sense for the AHL team to be a tennant especially since they weren't drawing well. It also didn't make sense for the Cavs to promote a team they didn't own. So it made sense for them to leave.

 

[Voight]

Kentucky Thoroughblades 1996-2001.

Interesting fact: When the NHL San Jose franchise polled fans for nicknames, Blades was the highest ranking. But they didn't go with that due to the gang/violence connotations. (So, when they purchased their AHL franchise in 1995, they included it in there.)

Spent a lot of time in Louisville in those years. Loved going to Thoroughblades games, especially because Nashville didn't exist at the beginning so that was the closest I could get to live NHL hockey without travelling far.

 

[SunDancer]

I'm 62 and have no issues at all with names that are not plurals which is what I am sure you meant to say since words can be plural without ending in S, like Moose. And words can end in S without being plural, like one of my favorite suggestions for SLC, the Utah Express.

As for the nonsense about teams with non-plural names taking on plural names. Aren't those just nicknames like many teams have, such as Buds and Habs. Or do you feel that all nicknames of that sort are a result of a flawed team name?

And even then, I think a lot of those short nicknames are the product of newspaper editors wanting to save space in headlines, especially in the print era.

Also, while the Avalanche and Lightning do have short plural nicknames, as far as I know, the Kraken and the Wild do not. And does anyone who is a more familiar with the NBA know if there are short plural nicknames for the Jazz, Heat, Thunder, or Magic?

Nicknames and diminutives are like terms of endearment. They let the fans express an attachment and affection for their team. The good folks in Utah should look for a name that easily lends itself to that kind of connection. In my opinion static names like the Wild or Kraken are sterile and can't do that.

 

[SunDancer]

Hey..... I'm on board. Now where's the owner who's ready to step up with the money?

Oh wait.....

I just wanted to point out how ridiculous that comment is. I mean everyone has known forever how much Bettman loves Arizona but I mean, come on. You would never hear him say anything like that about any other location, let alone somewhere in Canada.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Yeah and clearly that was a stupid move. Again if you want to be a private person don't go out and buy controlling interest in a major league sports team, especially one that has as big of an image problem as the Coyotes do.

There are plenty of owners that are private people, and you don't hear from them. Yes, the Coyotes might be a different beast, but that's why you can hire people to be the spokesperson, in charge of that particular side of the overall business. XG might not have been the right choice to head the hockey team, but he's been his right hand man for a long time, so it made sense as to why he did it.

 

[Tawnos]

At the risk of sounding like an anti-Coyotes fanatic......I'm in favor of this petition. "We're going to finance this ourselves" sure doesn't look like financing it themselves, when they are looking to take advantage of the theme park district designation.

I do think some of that is how you interpret the idea of a use tax like this in the first place. For the consumer, is there a difference between:

(1) paying a 9% tax
or
(2) paying 9% more in retail prices

There isn't a real difference to the consumer there (though, in reality, the 9% tax is cheaper for the consumer than the 9% upcharge because regular sales taxes are still in play). Even if the developer was going to pay for the arena entirely out of pocket without any kind of government involvement at all, they're still going to be looking to recoup those costs somewhere. As I understand the theme park district element of all of this, it's essentially a financing method. The developer incurs whatever debts paying for construction and the tax helps them pay it off. There's no sales tax opportunities that's lost in there, because this tax would be on top of normal sales taxes and wouldn't otherwise be collected.

When a developer says "we're financing this on our own" it really just means that no funds are being given to the developer from any level of government. There might be help with arranging financing, as in the case of the theme park district tax that essentially ensures creditors will be paid. There might even be incentives given in the form of tax breaks, which would be the case here if the arena is truly exempt from income and property taxes (which I believe is unconfirmed), though I agree that then starts to fall into "distinction without a difference" territory. But the city/county/state is not paying for any of the construction directly.

One of the Coyotes biggest problems both with TED and with this plan has been that they don't explain any of this well at all and expect "we're going to finance this ourselves" to be the end of the conversation, with people just believing it to be true.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Do those developers come out and say “it's privately funded, we're buying the land, we're paying for all of the building," and “I want to be very clear so people understand. (We’re) putting up the money to do this. We’re on the hook for it, and that is not the case with any other building in the state of Arizona. That somehow gets misconstrued... We were paying for it all”.

I mean, developers pretty much pay for it all anyway - I can’t remember a developer anywhere that just came out and openly said anything like the above though, before each project.

No, but at the same time, public funding and any kind of break for sports owners has gone under much more scrutiny than it previously has. Would you rather he just sit back and say nothing? All he's doing is trying to get the public support for it. Not sure what the issue is here.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Spent a lot of time in Louisville in those years. Loved going to Thoroughblades games, especially because Nashville didn't exist at the beginning so that was the closest I could get to live NHL hockey without travelling far.

Louisville and Florida likely would've had a better standing now if there hadn't been a corrupt ownership that didn't pay the Panther prospects which is why Florida pulled the affiliation.... but the rivalry does exist between Lexington and Louisville.... it's also why Elmira and Port Huron got caught in that deceit... and why Robbie Nichols keeps trying to keep a team in Elmira in various leagues including the FPHL.....

 

[TheLegend]

I just wanted to point out how ridiculous that comment is. I mean everyone has known forever how much Bettman loves Arizona but I mean, come on. You would never hear him say anything like that about any other location, let alone somewhere in Canada.

What’s rediculous about it?

Bettman has said dozens of times when asked about Arizona that they are there because someone was willing to step up to keep the team there.

Coyotes would have gone in 2019 had Alex Meruelo not come in and dumped tens of millions of his own money trying to make it work.

You think Salt Lake City would have a team now had Ryan Smith not stepped up to the plate with $1.2 billion. Then there are two groups right now wanting a team back in Atlanta and one is close to getting it done.

So where is Quebec City?? Where are the the groups wanting a second GTA team??

Sending a provential finance minister off to Net York for meet and greets with Gary Bettman doesn’t get you an NHL franchise.

Money talks.

 

[aqib]

There are plenty of owners that are private people, and you don't hear from them. Yes, the Coyotes might be a different beast, but that's why you can hire people to be the spokesperson, in charge of that particular side of the overall business. XG might not have been the right choice to head the hockey team, but he's been his right hand man for a long time, so it made sense as to why he did it.

Yeah I don't know of anyone else who is that anonymous. Its especially stupid why your reputation is terrible and you are taking over a team whose image is even worse. You can buy a minority stake if all you want to do is be around pro sports but don't want to be out front. Or buy a team that's already rock solid and doesn't anything other than a guy to cut checks and stay out of the way.

 

[aqib]

What’s rediculous about it?

Bettman has said dozens of times when asked about Arizona that they are there because someone was willing to step up to keep the team there.

Coyotes would have gone in 2019 had Alex Meruelo not come in and dumped tens of millions of his own money trying to make it work.

You think Salt Lake City would have a team now had Ryan Smith not stepped up to the plate with $1.2 billion. Then there are two groups right now wanting a team back in Atlanta and one is close to getting it done.

So where is Quebec City?? Where are the the groups wanting a second GTA team??

Sending a provential finance minister off to Net York for meet and greets with Gary Bettman doesn’t get you an NHL franchise.

Money talks.

The league owned the team for 3 years before they basically bankrolled the purchase by the IceArizona clowns.

As far as a second GTA team goes, there have been lots of inquiries by deep-pocketed owners over the years. Everyone has been told no. Daly and Bettman have repeatedly thrown cold water on the idea over the years. Remington Group was planning the Markham Arena and had partnered with Ryan Reynolds to bid on the Senators, so they would be interested but the league has sent a clear message that isn't happening. If the NHL had told Ryan Smith when they first met "we're not interested in Utah" he wouldn't have been doing all the work he's been doing in the last 2 years.

 

[RoyalAir]

So, here's my question for those who think that history should belong to the city, what if the owners of a new team don't want the history of other teams that played in the city? Is there any evidence that Ted Turner wanted the Thrashers to be seen as a continuation of the Atlanta Flames?

Turner was the exact opposite with the Thrashers. He never acknowledged the Flames, their fans, or any of the alumni- including those that still lived in Atlanta.

It was to his *massive* detriment. There was a proud tradition in Atlanta that pertained to both the Flames and the IHL's Knights. Turner ignored every bit of it, for years, even when guys like Tim Ecclestone (who owned a sports bar in the area) wanted to help market and sell for the new club.

While Calgary owned all Atlanta Flames iconography (including the epic Flaming A), there was never any attempt or desire to even *try* to reacquire it. There were some fan-created logos that had those elements floating around for a while, too.

 

[SunDancer]

What’s rediculous about it?

Bettman has said dozens of times when asked about Arizona that they are there because someone was willing to step up to keep the team there.

Coyotes would have gone in 2019 had Alex Meruelo not come in and dumped tens of millions of his own money trying to make it work.

You think Salt Lake City would have a team now had Ryan Smith not stepped up to the plate with $1.2 billion. Then there are two groups right now wanting a team back in Atlanta and one is close to getting it done.

So where is Quebec City?? Where are the the groups wanting a second GTA team??

Sending a provential finance minister off to Net York for meet and greets with Gary Bettman doesn’t get you an NHL franchise.

Money talks.

Coming from the commissioner of a major league, the comment is absurd.

If Bettman really said, "It's my dream to have a franchise in Arizona" as Mereulo claims, then he is 100% the Coyotes fanboy we've always suspected.

Rational considerations like ownership and arena location don't carry the same weight with someone who's pursuing their "dream."

 

[awfulwaffle]

Yeah I don't know of anyone else who is that anonymous. Its especially stupid why your reputation is terrible and you are taking over a team whose image is even worse. You can buy a minority stake if all you want to do is be around pro sports but don't want to be out front. Or buy a team that's already rock solid and doesn't anything other than a guy to cut checks and stay out of the way.

Dude just give it a rest, he's a billionaire that wanted a new toy. It's clear he needed to do a better job of hiring the right people in those positions.

Realistically, anyone could have bought the Coyotes and just cut checks(which is what AM was basically doing), as long as you had the right people in place. He's now sitting at the big boy table with all the other owners, the "elite" as they might call themselves. There are other people that wish they were there, aspire to be there, etc.

 

[SunDancer]

To me, I liken the situation of a city reusing an old team name to the following scenario. The Smiths have a child called Johnny who go f to Hollywood and changes his name to Billy Brown. The Smiths miss Johnny, so they give birth to anther kid and name him Johnny or the adopt a kid and rename him Johnny. Seems a little creepy to me.

Every time my aunt's dog died she would get a new puppy (same breed) and give it the same name. She's on her 4th Bella.

 

[Llama19]

Do those developers come out and say “it's privately funded, we're buying the land, we're paying for all of the building," and “I want to be very clear so people understand. (We’re) putting up the money to do this. We’re on the hook for it, and that is not the case with any other building in the state of Arizona. That somehow gets misconstrued... We were paying for it all”.

I mean, developers pretty much pay for it all anyway - I can’t remember a developer anywhere that just came out and openly said anything like the above though, before each project.

The key...is the passing of HB2274...by the Arizona State Senate...who has not even taken up the bill...

The session ends on 05/10/24...so THAT is the current critical date...it has to pass...in order for Meruelo to even consider going forward with the auction...otherwise...he will have to resort to another 'pile of dirt'...

However...this is tomorrow's event at the State Capitol...

For those that are not aware...the Unite Here (Local 11)...represents 2,000 workers in hotels, restaurants, airport concessions, and in-flight catering. Their members include many of the cooks, dishwashers, restaurant and banquet servers, bell staff, and room cleaners...

Nothing to see here...

 

[aqib]

I do think some of that is how you interpret the idea of a use tax like this in the first place. For the consumer, is there a difference between:

(1) paying a 9% tax
or
(2) paying 9% more in retail prices

There isn't a real difference to the consumer there (though, in reality, the 9% tax is cheaper for the consumer than the 9% upcharge because regular sales taxes are still in play). Even if the developer was going to pay for the arena entirely out of pocket without any kind of government involvement at all, they're still going to be looking to recoup those costs somewhere. As I understand the theme park district element of all of this, it's essentially a financing method. The developer incurs whatever debts paying for construction and the tax helps them pay it off. There's no sales tax opportunities that's lost in there, because this tax would be on top of normal sales taxes and wouldn't otherwise be collected.

When a developer says "we're financing this on our own" it really just means that no funds are being given to the developer from any level of government. There might be help with arranging financing, as in the case of the theme park district tax that essentially ensures creditors will be paid. There might even be incentives given in the form of tax breaks, which would be the case here if the arena is truly exempt from income and property taxes (which I believe is unconfirmed), though I agree that then starts to fall into "distinction without a difference" territory. But the city/county/state is not paying for any of the construction directly.

One of the Coyotes biggest problems both with TED and with this plan has been that they don't explain any of this well at all and expect "we're going to finance this ourselves" to be the end of the conversation, with people just believing it to be true.

The problem is no one trusts the Coyotes for a number of reasons:

1) How does this project pencil out? If the arena itself is $1 billion give or take, how does this make any financial sense to spend $1 billion for a THIRD major league arena in the valley for a team that hasn't shown it can draw. Who wants a potential white elephant.

2) How are they supposed to finance $2-3 billion when there are reports of the team not paying even small bills?

3) While Mureulo has had other businesses. He hasn't done major real estate developments.

Add to that the housing is expected to be high-end and you have a housing affordability crisis throughout North America that's not going to be something people are going to get behind. Then you have the NIMBY thing.

 

[Tawnos]

The problem is no one trusts the Coyotes for a number of reasons:

1) How does this project pencil out? If the arena itself is $1 billion give or take, how does this make any financial sense to spend $1 billion for a THIRD major league arena in the valley for a team that hasn't shown it can draw. Who wants a potential white elephant.

2) How are they supposed to finance $2-3 billion when there are reports of the team not paying even small bills?

3) While Mureulo has had other businesses. He hasn't done major real estate developments.

Add to that the housing is expected to be high-end and you have a housing affordability crisis throughout North America that's not going to be something people are going to get behind. Then you have the NIMBY thing.

Those are more fundamental questions than what I was addressing in my post and honestly, they’ve been more than hashed to death. But specifically on #2… there’s a pretty high profile example of someone who operates or at least operated exactly the same way (not paying small vendor bills while getting financing for big real estate projects). Let’s just steer away from national politics though. Suffice it to say that Meruelo would not be the first to get major financing in his circumstances.