CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

[TheLegend]

I love it.

"Gary told me when I first bought the team that this is his dream."

Has anyone ever heard Gary say that about bringing back the Nordiques ... or bringing the NHL to southern Ontario?

Dream big, Gary! Dream big!

Hey..... I'm on board. Now where's the owner who's ready to step up with the money?

Oh wait.....

 

[TheLegend]

The game I went to at AWA, it wasn’t full, but you could tell fans were into it. The rabid base had been built. All the howling.

The game I went to in Glendale, just six years later. They already ditched the kachina for the next logo… which seemed like a problem to me. Plus that was against Detroit, the arena was maybe 2/3rds full, and it was 45% Wings fans (not a new phenomenon… and in talking to people in Vegas, we know things are different when an O6 team shows up).

I’m not privy to why the kachinas were ditched; perhaps there was a good reason. It seems to me that the Coyote branding was distinct enough and worked… it wasn’t the problem in and of itself. All the decisions made in leaving downtown seemed to lack certain details of vision and the organization never really recovered.

It was Wayne Gretzky's decision to ditch the Kachina.

 

[rojac]

I know we’ve been over this many times before but you’re missing the actual reason which is that fans largely don’t give a shit about the legal realities of the franchise system and view teams more as civic institutions than businesses. The connection people feel is to the names and logos of teams, not the piece of paper the owner has in his office from the league authorizing them to own it. Players and coaches and execs and owners come and go many, many times over the course of your fandom, you are cheering for the laundry and the city.

Nobody in Washington cares about Dennis Martinez’s perfect game. Like seriously, not a single Nats fan cares that their team “owns” this event that happened over a decade before they got the team. I’m guessing most former Expos feel zero connection to a team in a city they never played in with a name they never played under and a logo they never wore.

Nobody in Utah cares about Shane Doan. Most fans of this team will not know who the f*** that is beyond being one of their player's dads… and some day even that connection will be gone. You know who loves Shane Doan? Hockey fans in Arizona who loved a team called the Coyotes. You know what Shane Doan cares about? The city he played 20+ years in and lives in to this day. When a new team comes, he’ll be rinkside at those games, not in SLC following that certificate from 1979. The idea that these team records belong to that paper not to the only individuals in the world who care about them, the people who actually watched those games, is a goofy legal fiction.

You’re asking people to conceptualize this like a Vulcan in Star Trek, through the frame of logic and legality. But there’s nothing really logical about sports fandom, it’s right there in the name. Most posters on this website studiously avoid this board because, however much we know better, the idea of the business of hockey is an oxymoron to them. Hockey is Auston a passing to Mitch Marner for a go ahead goal, not guys in suits writing and cashing checks

Well, I think the whole civic institution thing is a fan delusion because they don't want to accept that, for example, the Toronto Maple Leafs probably more accurately represent Bell, Rogers, and Tanenbaum than they do the city of Toronto.

Anyway, in this case, I was talking about reuse of team names rather than the continuation of a record book or history. While I used to favor continuing the history/record book when a team moved. That is no longer my position. I think when a ream folds or moves, their history should be considered complete and never reopened, so for example, all of the following would have their own histories and record books, some of which would now be closed:

Winnipeg Jets 1.0 (1979-1996)
Arizona Coyotes (1996-2024)
Atlanta Thrashers (1999-2011)
Winnipeg Jets 2.0 (2011- )

Montreal Expos (1969-2004)
Washington Nationals (2004- )

What I was talking about in the post you replied to was things like the decision to reuse the Jets name in Winnipeg rather than acknowledging that it was a different team. The new Winnipeg Whatevers could still honour Winnipeg hockey history, hey just wouldn't be considered a continuation of the Jets.

So, here's my question for those who think that history should belong to the city, what if the owners of a new team don't want the history of other teams that played in the city? Is there any evidence that Ted Turner wanted the Thrashers to be seen as a continuation of the Atlanta Flames? If Meruelo fails to reactivate the Coyotes, would an eventual owner of an expansion team want the Coyotes history on their book? In such a case, should a team be forced to accept the history of ther teams that played in the city? For example, should the Blues be forced to claim that they played in the NHL in 1934-35 under the name of the St. Louis Eagles?

 

[BMN]

I think I'm the only person on planet earth (besides Wayne Gretzky, I guess) who always thought the Kachina was butt ugly and the "cleaner" jerseys were an improvement.

But then again, I'd like to think if I was a sports executive I would market to the fans and not to myself...

 

[rsteen]

Well, I think the whole civic institution thing is a fan delusion because they don't want to accept that, for example, the Toronto Maple Leafs probably more accurately represent Bell, Rogers, and Tanenbaum than they do the city of Toronto.

So now are you making the argument that they're a different franchise than when they were owned by the Ontario teachers's pensions?

Again, the fans don't care about any of this. Remember what these businesses are in the business of selling? It's fandom. If the fans want the Jets "back" instead of the Moose, why not?

 

[StreetHawk]

Unless the fans demand it like they did in Winnipeg it might be better to use a different name. If another group could secure roadrunners, that would be a good option.

As for the jets, could have gone Moose with the goodwill the A club developed over the years in the city. But the fans wanted the jets.
When Houston returned to the nfl they passed on reviving the Oilers (though I think the titans franchise owned it).

Personally, in today’s sports world ideal to not use the same name as another franchise in the big 4 and MLS.

 

[Voight]

The more AM talks the more you realize he is a bit of a social idiot. He might be great at business structure and making money but speaking and the personable stuff is not his strong point. You have to wonder if that is part of why the league put a gag order on him through this process.

That's why I find it hard to believe he went and allegedly knock on peoples doors for the Tempe vote.

Mind you, he also said he spent 7 million on the Tempe vote, which turned out to be wrong.

 

[TheLegend]

I think I'm the only person on planet earth (besides Wayne Gretzky, I guess) who always thought the Kachina was butt ugly and the "cleaner" jerseys were an improvement.

But then again, I'd like to think if I was a sports executive I would market to the fans and not to myself...

I liked the howling head myself. Only Yotes jersey I have. But I also like the Kachina.

 

[TheLegend]

That's why I find it hard to believe he went and allegedly knock on peoples doors for the Tempe vote.

Mind you, he also said he spent 7 million on the Tempe vote, which turned out to be wrong.

Personally I think the 7 million represented what he spent on everything regarding TED. Which included all the prep work on the bid etc. plus the referendum.

Definitely did not spend that much just on the referendum itself.

 

[Legion34]

I wonder if they go with the wolves.

Homage to coyotes. And wolves were just brought back to utah

 

[rojac]

So now are you making the argument that they're a different franchise than when they were owned by the Ontario teachers's pensions?

Again, the fans don't care about any of this. Remember what these businesses are in the business of selling? It's fandom. If the fans want the Jets "back" instead of the Moose, why not?

I was just trying to make the point that there is probably more connection to ownership than to the city. But I might just be too cynical about it.

Personally, I always think owners should give as little power to fans as possible, especially after reading HFBoards. The owner should pick a game and use that. Or if they want to throw a bone to the fans, hold a poll and just tell them that the owner's choice won.

 

[rojac]

Personally I think the 7 million represented what he spent on everything regarding TED. Which included all the prep work on the bid etc. plus the referendum.

Definitely did not spend that much just on the referendum itself.

That's certainly my assumption.

 

[Voight]

Craig Morgan has clarified details of the deal

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

Arena must be 50% completed before the request to reactivate. Craig says that if it’s close enough, he will likely get wiggle room. They said if he doesn’t have a shovel in the ground in 3 years, he won’t make it.

If AM fails at the auction, that does NOT kill the this dead. AM can pivot to other pieces of land he has letters of intent on (such as Mesa). He must have land within a year though.

AM must own the team for 5 years after reactivating.

They dissect the press conference, which they obviously felt was a clown show.

And Craig got an interview with Bettman. He found out this morning that the one with AM wasn’t happening.

Was it clarified if that 5 years after the puck is dropped int heir firsts Eason? I imagine it is?

 

[GKJ]

Was it clarified if that 5 years after the puck is dropped int heir firsts Eason? I imagine it is?

5 full seasons

 

[Voight]

Damn that Meruelo press conference was awful. Does he not have a PR team?

• "I hate the media"
• "Can you let me breath?"
• "I spent 7 million on the tempe vote" - Public docs say 1 million

Gary probably left that thinking "Can't wait until year 3 when this guy is still searching for land and we can pull the carpet out from him." He had to take the mic away from him a few times and answer on his behalf.

Maybe he did, but they stopped working for him after he stopped paying them

 

[rojac]

I wonder if they go with the wolves.

Homage to coyotes. And wolves were just brought back to utah

Seems kind of boring to me.

 

[mouser]

Minnesota's is the absolute worst, I swear. "Wild" is so horrible it makes my face hurt.

Best ones are the Orlando Solar Bears, Wheeling Nailers and Macon Whoopee, fight me otherwise.

Lake Erie Monsters all the way. Never should have changed their name to the Cleveland Monsters.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Lake Erie Monsters all the way. Never should have changed their name to the Cleveland Monsters.

Cleveland Monsters is stupid sounding. Lake Erie Monsters sounds way cooler and I'm not sure why.

 

[mouser]

Cleveland Monsters is stupid sounding. Lake Erie Monsters sounds way cooler and I'm not sure why.

Loch Ness Monster association

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Lake Erie Monsters all the way. Never should have changed their name to the Cleveland Monsters.

Dan Gilbert likely had a lot to do w/ that... it's why he wanted a team in 2006... that was his solely not another ownership like SVSE (SJSE/Sharks Sports) and why he was awarded the I/AHL Grizzlies then, it wasn't until 2016 that the Cleveland name was attached

 

[Tawnos]

Personally I think the 7 million represented what he spent on everything regarding TED. Which included all the prep work on the bid etc. plus the referendum.

Definitely did not spend that much just on the referendum itself.

It annoyed me that no one in the media went “that’s a crazy number, what else is he including” and then FOLLOWED UP on it. I get that no one wants to allow him anything, and I don’t blame them at this point. But I feel like the “it was only $1.1m!” reactions are disingenuous because it’s obvious they’re not talking about the same exact thing.

 

[Voight]

I largely agree with you, but the context is important too.

The Arizona press conference was a post-mortem with a totally different vibe of a failure where a lot of tough questions were prefaced with a rehashing of things gone wrong. Compare that to the Utah press conference with a vibe of enthusiasm with everybody who is anybody in the city or state wanting to be part of the good news story.

The person common to these two press conferences was Bettman. In the first one he was defensive and short to be the point of near-rudeness to some of those asking questions. The very same person came across much more likeable in the second one after being was greeted with cheers (queue his joke about how he is usually received by hockey fans) and having to answer questions that allowed him to repeatedly pat himself on the back for his success in creatively bringing a new team to Utah.

If I was in the chairs of the outgoing and incoming owners I would have been ill-at-ease in the first press conference and enthusiastic in the second too. Having said that, “you reap what you sow” and Meruelo and Smith both put themselves into the situations they were facing the press about.

That didn't surprise me given how hes been hell bent on making the Coyotes work in Arizona. It was a waving the white flag moment.

(Not defending his conduct, but nobody likes to be wrong especially in this situation)

 

[Voight]

This is the first half decent name they have filed a trademark for

Still XFL-ish, but much better than all the other ones.

If I could go back and enforce one decision on the NHL that doesn't have to do with safety or sound business practices, it would be to force Norm Green to change the team name to "Lone Stars" when they moved to Dallas, and leave "North Stars" as available IP for a new Minnesota franchise.

Agree with you, but I don't think the NHL would want two teams with such a similar name.

Then again, MLB has two "Sox" teams so who knows.

My memory on Minnesota is that they held the name the team contest and the top vote getter was “Northern Lights” but the NHL vetoed it over an objection from the Stars. The second place vote getter was “Blue Ox” but the Columbus expansion team had already settled on Blue Jackets. So they went with Wild, which came third.

It’s a really bad name and it is made worse by the fact that the team itself actively tried to be relatively staid and boring both on and off the ice. Their entire brand is old-fashioned Midwestern hockey and yet they have a name that sounds like an arena football team owned by the members of Motley Crue.

Laughed out loud at this

 

[jigglysquishy]

So, here's my question for those who think that history should belong to the city, what if the owners of a new team don't want the history of other teams that played in the city? Is there any evidence that Ted Turner wanted the Thrashers to be seen as a continuation of the Atlanta Flames? If Meruelo fails to reactivate the Coyotes, would an eventual owner of an expansion team want the Coyotes history on their book? In such a case, should a team be forced to accept the history of ther teams that played in the city? For example, should the Blues be forced to claim that they played in the NHL in 1934-35 under the name of the St. Louis Eagles?

Who cares what the owners think?

Why can't the Senators acknowledge the Silver Sevens and Original Senators?

Why can't Vancouver acknowledge the Millionaires?

It doesn't impact your life. Stop complaining about other people being happy.

 

[Brodie]

Anyway, in this case, I was talking about reuse of team names rather than the continuation of a record book or history.

The names are the thing that fans care about, though.

Like at the end of the day, the only things the hockey team I started cheering for as a little kid and the team I cheer for in my 30s have in common is the city, name, and logo. The owner is dead, the players are long retired, we’ve been through half a dozen coaches, the arena has been demolished. The name’s what stays.

In the extremely unlikely event that the Red Wings ever left Detroit to be replaced by an expansion team, why on earth would I or anyone else want them to have any name other than the one I’ve already committed to 100%? What’s to be gained? The hockey fans of Detroit are Red Wings fans, why try and force us to buy into the Detroit Alternators or whatever just for shits and giggles?