CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

[GKJ]

I think the slate will all get cleaned out on June 27th @ 11:00AM when the land auction starts and Meruelo is nowhere to be seen. ( JMO, but I don't think he even shows up ) . As well, the NHL should be talking to Meruelo right now and tell him to "read the room". No one in Arizona wants you as an owner.

At that point the NHL can start the process of trying to have a franchise in Arizona with proper ownership. Not going to make a prediction on this happening, but if Meruelo walks away, the NHL doesn't have to wait 5 years. They can start on this right away.

I think he will show up to the auction, as long as he thinks he can win it. Just how much does it take to win though?

 

[takimaki]

Strong disagree on that concept. You want the brand because it has 28 years behind it. That's a generation of fans. It takes a loooooong time to have generations of fans who grew up with the team. Go look at the Atlanta thread, they want the THRASHERS back, not a new brand.

For the next iteration of the NHL in Phoenix, you need every single Coyotes fan back, and then add more. And with an actual NHL arena and being a "normal team" with a legit arena accessible to the entire market, you can probably have people who didn't pay attention who hear the Coyotes are doing well in the playoffs and are like "oh, I guess they didn't leave? There were always rumors about it, I thought they left."

I can see your side of the argument, but it remains to be seen how the currently tarnished brand image rebounds after resting for a while. I’d like to think that in 2-3 years that will be enough, and then they can safely relaunch…but Valley area residents (hardcore Yotes fans aside) can be a fickle bunch. Do you blame them after this circus?

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I still remember all the folks who claimed the Thrashers moved because "there was no one local willing to buy" the team. Good times, but verifiably false. Apparently, the only thing the league required of prospective Coyotes owners back then was a pulse and an ability to sign ones own name.



One of my favorite lines from Bojack Horseman is "when you're wearing rose-tinted glasses, all the red flags just look like flags." Like I said, hindsight is 20/20.

Yup. There were local buyers but none willing to agree to ASG's deliberately outrageous (to the point of outright sabotage) lease terms. They wanted the team gone and they controlled the only NHL arena in the area. Not much anyone could do.

 

[cbcwpg]

I think he will show up to the auction, as long as he thinks he can win it. Just how much does it take to win though?

Minimum bid is $68.5 million IIRC.

I saw a tweet though ( can't remember from whom ) that said now that the Coyotes are moving , the auction may have more people bidding because initially people didn't want to be seen as outbidding Meruelo, and being the reason the team left. Interesting potential.

 

[GKJ]

Minimum bid is $68.5 million IIRC.

Yeah, the minimum.

If Meruelo is only showing up with a $65.8m check, he’ll be back in his car before the auction even ends

 

[TheLegend]

100% this.

The past decade, Coyotes fans have been left to stump for charlatans because those charlatans were the only people preventing (although as it turns out, it was merely prolonging) relocation. You know the period of time when the league was running the team? That could have been the whole 28 years and there's no way it would have come out worse. It's crazy to realize that the only non-COVID time the team won a playoff round was when the league owned it!

Had I been a NHL owner in the 2010s, I would never have voted to approve IceArizona. Even above not believing in any of them (especially Anthony Leblanc who sounded like the perjorative term of a used car salesman the moment he opened his mouth), I would have just stood up and said "these guys don't have the money and won't have the money any time remotely soon for this to be an acceptable situation" and left it at that.

I think Reinsdorf was their best shot...and even typing that makes me go "woof" a little...

Reinsdorf wintered in Glendale and the White Sox spring training was there. He was going to turn the Coyotes over to his son, who at that time owned a minor league team in Stockton, CA that did fairly well.

Their best years after the Glendale move was when the NHL owned the team.

Don Maloney was the GM and the NHL said "Here's your budget. Spend it as you wish". Maloney wore all the hats.

 

[KevFu]

idk about this, it depends on how strong the brand is. You're going to win back all the existing Yotes fans regardless, most of them are not there for the name (I'm sure there's a contingent who are there for the logo but most of those types have grown into a more mature fandom).

I think some brands are bad and some can be tarnished.

That's an extremely external point of view. It's tarnished to you, but didn't stop thousands of people from proudly wearing the brand last night.

The best way to make this make sense is baseball stadiums. When my team (Mets) opened a new baseball stadium, 99% of fans said "It's not 'Mets enough.'". (WTF does that mean? What was Mets about the old place?). The common thing said was "Shea was a dump, but it was OUR DUMP."

What makes Ivy "Cubs" or a big green wall "Red Sox." ? It's the fact that the Cubs and Red Sox have played "my entire life" in front of the Ivy and Green Monster. The Mets new stadium feels like HOME now that the Mets had World Series games, a no-hitter, the farewell to David Wright, jersey retirements, and 15 seasons in it. New Yankee Stadium felt a lot more like home to Yankee fans on day one because it looked just like the old home than CitiField felt like home to the Mets.

And that's the point on the Coyotes brand.

YOUR perception of the Coyotes brand is "ownership/arena dumpster fire." But that's only a piece of the brand to the Coyotes fans, and the least important to the feelings of those fans for the brand.

What the Coyotes brand means to their fans is "My NHL team." And that's why you want the revival of an NHL team in Phoenix to be the Coyotes. And why Atlanta wants the Thrashers, and why Winnipeg wanted the Jets.

 

[TheLegend]

Minimum bid is $68.5 million IIRC.

I saw a tweet though ( can't remember from whom ) that said now that the Coyotes are moving , the auction may have more people bidding because initially people didn't want to be seen as outbidding Meruelo, and being the reason the team left. Interesting potential.

They can't sit on it though.

There are conditions baked in including where you have to have an infrastructure plan in place to be completed within 36 months of sale. Estimates were roughly in the $100 million range on top of the purchase of the land.

So whomever is going to go after it better have deep pockets.

EDIT: Correcting the above.... Was scanning through the auction notice again and I'm not sure now what's actually set in stone.....

Notice link: https://land.az.gov/sites/default/files/2024-04/53-124365 notice.pdf

 

[TheGreenTBer]

That's an extremely external point of view. It's tarnished to you, but didn't stop thousands of people from proudly wearing the brand last night.

The best way to make this make sense is baseball stadiums. When my team (Mets) opened a new baseball stadium, 99% of fans said "It's not 'Mets enough.'". (WTF does that mean? What was Mets about the old place?). The common thing said was "Shea was a dump, but it was OUR DUMP."

What makes Ivy "Cubs" or a big green wall "Red Sox." ? It's the fact that the Cubs and Red Sox have played "my entire life" in front of the Ivy and Green Monster.


YOUR perception of the Coyotes brand is "ownership/arena dumpster fire." But that's only a piece of the brand to the Coyotes fans, and the least important to the feelings of those fans for the brand.

What the Coyotes brand means to their fans is "My NHL team." And that's why you want the revival of an NHL team in Phoenix to be the Coyotes. And why Atlanta wants the Thrashers, and why Winnipeg wanted the Jets.

I'm not sure i agree, but I am not a Coyotes fan.

I kind of feel that right now the Coyotes brand, at least the one that is tied to Mr-I-Don't-Pay-My-Freaking-Bills, is kind of toxic except to the diehard fans. If I were controlling this situation years from now and I had an arena plan, it would be a complete rebrand. It would be Arizona's team, and I'd keep the "Arizona" part of the name but I'd cut ties with Coyotes.

But maybe I don't know shit.

 

[TheLegend]

It's crazy that after 168 mega-threads this is either close to the last one, or the last one. I mean there might be a few days of recriminations and finger-pointing, but the story of the Arizona Coyotes will be over.

Or do we keep the mega-thread numbering alive to follow how AM is doing in trying to build his rink? It's been so long following this story I don't think I can leave it completely behind.

I'm waiting for two things.

- The list of "milestones" Meruelo has to meet.

- June 27th.

Not really interested in anything else.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

It's crazy that after 168 mega-threads this is either close to the last one, or the last one. I mean there might be a few days of recriminations and finger-pointing, but the story of the Arizona Coyotes will be over.

Or do we keep the mega-thread numbering alive to follow how AM is doing in trying to build his rink? It's been so long following this story I don't think I can leave it completely behind.

It's not my decision to make and i don't care much one way or the other if it continues, but I would think that if Meruelo loses the auction somehow (which he absolutely shouldn't) then the megathread should be brought to an end. That would almost certainly break the conditions of his return to the NHL, and we'd all be waiting for the next buyer. If his agreement with the NHL is severed, he would lose any rights to Coyotes assets and the Coyotes brand in effect would be history unless a future owner wants to keep the brand and buy it from the NHL rather than starting fresh.

It's when, not if, the NHL returns to Arizona. It's just a matter of the who, what, where and when.

 

[TheLegend]

It's not my decision to make and i don't care much one way or the other if it continues, but I would think that if Meruelo loses the auction somehow (which he absolutely shouldn't) then the megathread should be brought to an end. That would almost certainly break the conditions of his return to the NHL, and we'd all be waiting for the next buyer. If his agreement with the NHL is severed, he would lose any rights to Coyotes assets and the Coyotes brand in effect would be history unless a future owner wants to keep the brand and buy it from the NHL rather than starting fresh.

It's when, not if, the NHL returns to Arizona. It's just a matter of the who, what, where and when.

End the megathread??

 

[TheGreenTBer]

End the megathread??

YOU JUST GOT THIS SONG IN MY HEAD I HATE YOU AND YOUR FACE SO HARD RIGHT NOW

 

[TheLegend]

YOU JUST GOT THIS SONG IN MY HEAD I HATE YOU AND YOUR FACE SO HARD RIGHT NOW

You could have had the Lamp Chop version.....

 

[KevFu]

I'm not sure i agree, but I am not a Coyotes fan.

I kind of feel that right now the Coyotes brand, at least the one that is tied to Mr-I-Don't-Pay-My-Freaking-Bills, is kind of toxic except to the diehard fans. If I were controlling this situation years from now and I had an arena plan, it would be a complete rebrand. It would be Arizona's team, and I'd keep the "Arizona" part of the name but I'd cut ties with Coyotes.

But maybe I don't know shit.

I appreciate the last line! I wouldn't say that, but I do think you're viewing it "backward."

The argument for a rebrand is this: the NON-diehards the market/franchise would need to win over in order to be successful will just assume the franchise is a disaster because they're named the Coyotes, and the last Coyotes were a dumpster fire. So a rebrand/fresh start should be preferred.

Sounds logic. But it's "bad math" compared to the "keep the Coyotes" equation. A new brand has to win over EVERYONE. The people who were Coyotes die-hards are going to be the easiest, but why give them a reason to not be fully invested as before? Just give them what they want.

The number of people who in YOUR VIEW think the Coyotes brand is tainted/toxic, just as easily equate "The NHL HERE is a disaster" and don't differentiate between the BRAND and just "Hockey."


If the Coyotes return and have a new arena that's good and they're just another franchise and not a dumpster fire, then it's winning that's going to bring people on board, just like anywhere else.

You'd rather have "The Coyotes are still here?" vs "Who the hell are the _____?"

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I appreciate the last line! I wouldn't say that, but I do think you're viewing it "backward."

The argument for a rebrand is this: the NON-diehards the market/franchise would need to win over in order to be successful will just assume the franchise is a disaster because they're named the Coyotes, and the last Coyotes were a dumpster fire. So a rebrand/fresh start should be preferred.

Sounds logic. But it's "bad math" compared to the "keep the Coyotes" equation. A new brand has to win over EVERYONE. The people who were Coyotes die-hards are going to be the easiest, but why give them a reason to not be fully invested as before? Just give them what they want.

The number of people who in YOUR VIEW think the Coyotes brand is tainted/toxic, just as easily equate "The NHL HERE is a disaster" and don't differentiate between the BRAND and just "Hockey."


If the Coyotes return and have a new arena that's good and they're just another franchise and not a dumpster fire, then it's winning that's going to bring people on board, just like anywhere else.

You'd rather have "The Coyotes are still here?" vs "Who the hell are the _____?"

Thanks for the response.

I'm definitely not one of those that has dumped on Arizona as a NHL target, and I think others will back me up on that. NHL will come back and I am hoping it's not with that grifting bastard because it will fail again, not because of the area or fans but because of him. That said, if I were running things and the fans and area wanted Coyotes I'd give them what they want.

Honestly I thought the Coyotes name and jerseys were fire, fwiw.

 

[aqib]

Strong disagree on that concept. You want the brand because it has 28 years behind it. That's a generation of fans. It takes a loooooong time to have generations of fans who grew up with the team. Go look at the Atlanta thread, they want the THRASHERS back, not a new brand.

For the next iteration of the NHL in Phoenix, you need every single Coyotes fan back, and then add more. And with an actual NHL arena and being a "normal team" with a legit arena accessible to the entire market, you can probably have people who didn't pay attention who hear the Coyotes are doing well in the playoffs and are like "oh, I guess they didn't leave? There were always rumors about it, I thought they left."

1) If they had enough fans who cared they wouldn't be moving. I am listening to the PHNX podcast from last nights game and they are like "you people who say they aren't any fans did you see last nights game..." Well that's one game in a 5K arena.

2) New Yorkers embraced the Mets, Baltimoreans embraced the Ravens, St Louis fans embraced the Rams, DC embraced the Nationals, Milwaukee embraced the Brewers, KC embraced the Athletics, etc.

3) The people who aren't fans now would only associate the Coyotes name with failure.

4) The only times names have been revived are the Browns, Winnipeg Jets, Washington Senators, Charlotte Hornets, Baltimore Orioles (the Yankees were the Baltimore Orioles for a year), and Milwaukee Brewers (the St Louis Browns were the Brewers for one year). So its more common for new teams to have new names

 

[Melrose Munch]

does anyone have a stream link?

 

[Max Milk]

1) If they had enough fans who cared they wouldn't be moving. I am listening to the PHNX podcast from last nights game and they are like "you people who say they aren't any fans did you see last nights game..." Well that's one game in a 5K arena.

2) New Yorkers embraced the Mets, Baltimoreans embraced the Ravens, St Louis fans embraced the Rams, DC embraced the Nationals, Milwaukee embraced the Brewers, KC embraced the Athletics, etc.

3) The people who aren't fans now would only associate the Coyotes name with failure.

4) The only times names have been revived are the Browns, Winnipeg Jets, Washington Senators, Charlotte Hornets, Baltimore Orioles (the Yankees were the Baltimore Orioles for a year), and Milwaukee Brewers (the St Louis Browns were the Brewers for one year). So its more common for new teams to have new names

4) ... as well as the Ottawa Senators (twice) & Montreal Alouettes (if you count the CFL).

 

[Tawnos]

IMO any tarnish attached to the Coyotes name will fade over time. Possibly as soon as the heightened emotions surrounding it all right now fade.

 

[RoyalAir]

4) The only times names have been revived are the Browns, Winnipeg Jets, Washington Senators, Charlotte Hornets, Baltimore Orioles (the Yankees were the Baltimore Orioles for a year), and Milwaukee Brewers (the St Louis Browns were the Brewers for one year). So its more common for new teams to have new names

But this is a little disingenuous, because many times those names left when the team left. Baltimore couldn't use the Colts again, because they were in Indianapolis. Houston would have *much* preferred to have the Oilers back instead of the Texans, but the Adams family owned the logos and rights. The NFL couldn't force them to give those back.

Sometimes that nostalgia is so strong, the leagues organize a rebranding/swapping. The Bobcats weren't called the Hornets because New Orleans had that name. But the NBA stepped in (at Michael Jordan's behest) and rebranded both the New Orleans team *and* the Charlotte team, giving the Hornets back to Charlotte.


As an Atlanta hockey fan, I'd rather the Thrashers have been called the Flames in 1999, but that wasn't available. As it is, since Flames is taken (still), and Knights is off the table, Thrashers (or Phoenix) is the best available for Atl 3.0.

The Coyotes branding is so strong that they brought back their original look, even when the brick red Mike Smith unis were absolutely gorgeous. The Kachina, and the name, will be back when the NHL returns to PHX.

 

[KevFu]

1) If they had enough fans who cared they wouldn't be moving. I am listening to the PHNX podcast from last nights game and they are like "you people who say they aren't any fans did you see last nights game..." Well that's one game in a 5K arena.

2) New Yorkers embraced the Mets, Baltimoreans embraced the Ravens, St Louis fans embraced the Rams, DC embraced the Nationals, Milwaukee embraced the Brewers, KC embraced the Athletics, etc.

3) The people who aren't fans now would only associate the Coyotes name with failure.

4) The only times names have been revived are the Browns, Winnipeg Jets, Washington Senators, Charlotte Hornets, Baltimore Orioles (the Yankees were the Baltimore Orioles for a year), and Milwaukee Brewers (the St Louis Browns were the Brewers for one year). So its more common for new teams to have new names

Your view of #1 and #3 are both obtuse. It's people who think that way who aren't going to be a fan either way, just like the people who believe #1 and #3 are going to argue that a team shouldn't come back to Phoenix.

The Coyotes fans embraced the Coyotes. Again, go look at the ATL thread, They want the Thrashers back, they are Thrashers fans. It's literally no different than the Jets or Nordiques.

And #4 is just insanity. If you're only counting "had a major team named this, had another major team named the same thing," sure. But "The city has had multiple teams in their history named that" is ridiculously common.

It's not the first San Diego Padres, Miami Marlins, Colorado Rockies, Washington Nationals, New York Mets, LA Angels, Texas Rangers, Buffalo Bills, Cincinnati Bengals, New York Giants, Pittsburgh Steelers, Baltimore or Washington Bullets, Denver Nuggets, etc, etc. And that's off the top of the my head.

 

[MMC]

 

[GKJ]

 

[Brodie]

That's an extremely external point of view. It's tarnished to you, but didn't stop thousands of people from proudly wearing the brand last night.

The best way to make this make sense is baseball stadiums. When my team (Mets) opened a new baseball stadium, 99% of fans said "It's not 'Mets enough.'". (WTF does that mean? What was Mets about the old place?). The common thing said was "Shea was a dump, but it was OUR DUMP."

What makes Ivy "Cubs" or a big green wall "Red Sox." ? It's the fact that the Cubs and Red Sox have played "my entire life" in front of the Ivy and Green Monster.


YOUR perception of the Coyotes brand is "ownership/arena dumpster fire." But that's only a piece of the brand to the Coyotes fans, and the least important to the feelings of those fans for the brand.

What the Coyotes brand means to their fans is "My NHL team." And that's why you want the revival of an NHL team in Phoenix to be the Coyotes. And why Atlanta wants the Thrashers, and why Winnipeg wanted the Jets.

I mean at the end of the day, there were only 5000 people there last night. Most of the relocation news hasn't made it above the fold in the Arizona Republic.

"My NHL team" is going to be the team that represents you in the NHL. If they're the Arizona Coyotes or if they're the Phoenix Saguaros, they're the NHL team for those fans.