CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

[aqib]

It's not exactly an unfounded place to direct at least some of the blame. Meruelo was clearly out of his depth.

Hindsight, as always, is 20/20.

There was no one within their depth willing to buy this team. Its changed hands seven times since its been in the desert (not including Burke buying out Gluckstern) and its always been some undercapitalized dude who is in over his head. When the Senators went up for sale you had several legit dudes making bids.

Also, everyone on this board except the Yotes fans were saying this guy would flop.

 

[eojsmada]

I think it’s him failing as soon as possible. Then you can get to work on finding the next owner instead of waiting 5 years.

Yeah...if he loses the auction, or doesn't even bid, I'm assuming his 5-year window is revoked.

One thing folks who are "in the know" will have to be careful about in publishing their stories about Meruelo, is that they could get sued out of existence for defamation. Meruelo has controlling rights and any legally perceived damage to his reputation that isn't already explicitly known or able to proved to be 100% to, could get Meruelo's lawyers in a tizzy and start going not only after the individuals but the NHL. But once Meruelo's agreement falls through (assuming that it does), he's fair game. Until then, he could easily win a defamation suit against anyone showing damage against his ability to fulfill his 5-year "mandate" to prepare the area for the team's return.

 

[aqib]

Of all of them…. only two groups had leaders with experience in pro sports.

Greg Jamison
Jerry Reinsdorf

The NHL turned one away and the other one walked away because someone outside kept meddling with negotiations.

To be fair most guys who buy sports teams don't have experience owning/working in sports. Most of the guys buying teams lately are Wall Street guys.

 

[dj4aces]

There was no one within their depth willing to buy this team.

I still remember all the folks who claimed the Thrashers moved because "there was no one local willing to buy" the team. Good times, but verifiably false. Apparently, the only thing the league required of prospective Coyotes owners back then was a pulse and an ability to sign ones own name.

Also, everyone on this board except the Yotes fans were saying this guy would flop.

One of my favorite lines from Bojack Horseman is "when you're wearing rose-tinted glasses, all the red flags just look like flags." Like I said, hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Chanting “Salt Lake sucks” in Mullett

So that's what that chant was...

I thought it was "Refs you suck" but hadn't seen any reason why they'd be chanting it.

Childish? Perhaps. BUt frankly I'd have expected a lot worse.

Finally it's over, folks. It lasted so many years and posts afters posts. The greatest most epic story of the HF Boards.

Yet I feel like t going to SLC came really freaking fast!

It's like the old line about bankruptcy - that it happens very slowly, then all at once.

We all could see the warning signs for years (including a literal bankruptcy!), but that doesn't mean the relocation was going to happen at any particular time.

 

[aqib]

Sorry for the "I told you sos" but I had got a lot of backlash for saying Muerelo had a PR problem and he had to be more public and build a relationship with the fans. I was told I didn't understand, I didn't know what I was talking about, how could I know from 3000 miles away. Well at the 15 minute mark here are people who cover the Coyotes saying the same thing:

 

[Yukon Joe]

It's crazy that after 168 mega-threads this is either close to the last one, or the last one. I mean there might be a few days of recriminations and finger-pointing, but the story of the Arizona Coyotes will be over.

Or do we keep the mega-thread numbering alive to follow how AM is doing in trying to build his rink? It's been so long following this story I don't think I can leave it completely behind.

 

[aqib]

One of my favorite lines from Bojack Horseman is "when you're wearing rose-tinted glasses, all the red flags just look like flags." Like I said, hindsight is 20/20.

Is it hindsight if someone was saying it all along? The other day I saw that Boston Market is about to shut down for good (its been dying for years) back in 1997 I was just out of school working as a credit analyst and we had some exposure to Boston Market and my boss's boss's boss doubted the company's future. My boss and boss's boss were both big supporters. Years later its clear who was right. I sent the article to my old boss with a note saying "it turns out Al was right"

 

[KevFu]

The thing that stands out to me is that we've seen the reports of the Coyotes name, logos, etc being retained and the "reactivation" potential contingent on the the land bid/arena deal within a timeframe. Obviously, we don't have any of those specifics...

... but the Coyotes broadcast last night, which I watched every second of, pre and post, made ZERO reference to The Coyotes coming back. It made casual reference to the NHL possibly coming back in the future ("but there are no guarantees")

There was waaaaay more Final Coyotes Game Ever, or Last Time than any "hope this is just a pause of the franchise."

Maybe that's simply because those details haven't been announced, but the general concept of "Utah will have a team next year and you won't" is public. But still alarming to me.

My hope is this is typical bungled PR by the NHL, and I see a Coyotes broadcast open with "it's been a long five/six years, but the Coyotes are back..."

 

[KevFu]

Is it hindsight if someone was saying it all along? The other day I saw that Boston Market is about to shut down for good (its been dying for years) back in 1997 I was just out of school working as a credit analyst and we had some exposure to Boston Market and my boss's boss's boss doubted the company's future. My boss and boss's boss were both big supporters. Years later its clear who was right. I sent the article to my old boss with a note saying "it turns out Al was right"

Similar in sports, I heard my boss say "we want to position ourselves so when the Big East splits in a few years, we get invited with the basketball schools" in the late 90s and "eventually big time football will split off from the NCAA" has been out there since the mid-80s.

Or how "the Oakland A's would leave town if they don't get a new stadium soon" has been going on since the mid-90s.

Which is part of the reason I chuckle at "it's finally over" comments in this thread. The Arizona Coyotes will be back in the NHL someday. It might take 5-7 years, it might take 40. There's no way a market that big (with no territorial rights concerns) is ignored forever.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The thing that stands out to me is that we've seen the reports of the Coyotes name, logos, etc being retained and the "reactivation" potential contingent on the the land bid/arena deal within a timeframe. Obviously, we don't have any of those specifics...

... but the Coyotes broadcast last night, which I watched every second of, pre and post, made ZERO reference to The Coyotes coming back. It made casual reference to the NHL possibly coming back in the future ("but there are no guarantees")

There was waaaaay more Final Coyotes Game Ever, or Last Time than any "hope this is just a pause of the franchise."

Maybe that's simply because those details haven't been announced, but the general concept of "Utah will have a team next year and you won't" is public. But still alarming to me.

My hope is this is typical bungled PR by the NHL, and I see a Coyotes broadcast open with "it's been a long five/six years, but the Coyotes are back..."

OK, so I had to watch the Oilers broadcast last night as I'm in the Oilers zone, so couldn't watch the Yotes broadcast. (Oilers didn't talk as much about relocation but did bring it up, including having Shane Doan stop by).

But consider this - the Yotes broadcasters have just lost their jobs. They have no incentive to keep pumping the tires for ownership. They're not going to go out guns-a-blazing (they still want to work in the league), but no reason to bring up.

I did see a screenshot on Twitter that supposedly the Arizona Coyotes did tweet out a "See you on June 27th" tweet last night (day of the land auction) but if they did they deleted it.

 

[dj4aces]

Is it hindsight if someone was saying it all along?

That's in the eye of the beholder. To those on these boards pointing out Meruelo was no savior, was ill-equipped, that he'd fail, it's not hindsight, it's vindication. To those who believed that maybe Meruelo would be the one to save the franchise, to give them the stable ownership in Arizona they never had, it's hindsight.

 

[aqib]

Similar in sports, I heard my boss say "we want to position ourselves so when the Big East splits in a few years, we get invited with the basketball schools" in the late 90s and "eventually big time football will split off from the NCAA" has been out there since the mid-80s.

Or how "the Oakland A's would leave town if they don't get a new stadium soon" has been going on since the mid-90s.

Which is part of the reason I chuckle at "it's finally over" comments in this thread. The Arizona Coyotes will be back in the NHL someday. It might take 5-7 years, it might take 40. There's no way a market that big (with no territorial rights concerns) is ignored forever.

I do wonder about keeping the name for a new team. With the Browns it was obvious why it was important. They were trying to tap into the older history of the Browns when the team was great not the last few years before the move. Also, the team was so deeply imbedded in the DNA of the city. While Coyotes is a great name if you were starting from scratch, there is so much negativity associated with it wouldn't you want to start with a clean slate?

 

[KevFu]

But consider this - the Yotes broadcasters have just lost their jobs. They have no incentive to keep pumping the tires for ownership. They're not going to go out guns-a-blazing (they still want to work in the league), but no reason to bring up.

That's the thing though, if you had the chance to see the broadcast and hear the crew do the game, it's not about that at all. It's not ownership and business-politics.

It's about the hockey community in the city with an NHL team as the tip of the spear. Which they have every single reason to carry the water for, and they did.

Those guys have dealt with 3 arenas, 3 TV networks, seven owners, a million rumors and zero stability over the last 28 years. They only give a damn about having an NHL team who's sole topic of conversation is ON THE ICE. That's it. And Phoenix has NEVER had that.

 

[sneakytitz]

While Coyotes is a great name if you were starting from scratch, there is so much negativity associated with it wouldn't you want to start with a clean slate?

A large number of us in Atlanta are clamoring for the new team to use the Thrashers name again. Nostalgia is a powerful antiseptic.

 

[Brodie]

I think the Coyotes are a tarnished brand in the market, they spent more than half the time they existed in annual limbo and were never really able to grow beyond their diehard fanbase for a variety of reasons.

A smart new NHL team would look to a new brand, something akin to the historic Roadrunners, rather than trying to rally around a Jets like "return" campaign (which its worth noting TNSE were kind of forced into after spending a month trying to make Manitoba Moose happen)

 

[KevFu]

I do wonder about keeping the name for a new team. With the Browns it was obvious why it was important. They were trying to tap into the older history of the Browns when the team was great not the last few years before the move. Also, the team was so deeply imbedded in the DNA of the city. While Coyotes is a great name if you were starting from scratch, there is so much negativity associated with it wouldn't you want to start with a clean slate?

Strong disagree on that concept. You want the brand because it has 28 years behind it. That's a generation of fans. It takes a loooooong time to have generations of fans who grew up with the team. Go look at the Atlanta thread, they want the THRASHERS back, not a new brand.

For the next iteration of the NHL in Phoenix, you need every single Coyotes fan back, and then add more. And with an actual NHL arena and being a "normal team" with a legit arena accessible to the entire market, you can probably have people who didn't pay attention who hear the Coyotes are doing well in the playoffs and are like "oh, I guess they didn't leave? There were always rumors about it, I thought they left."

 

[BMN]

Similar in sports, I heard my boss say "we want to position ourselves so when the Big East splits in a few years, we get invited with the basketball schools" in the late 90s and "eventually big time football will split off from the NCAA" has been out there since the mid-80s.

Or how "the Oakland A's would leave town if they don't get a new stadium soon" has been going on since the mid-90s.

Which is part of the reason I chuckle at "it's finally over" comments in this thread. The Arizona Coyotes will be back in the NHL someday. It might take 5-7 years, it might take 40. There's no way a market that big (with no territorial rights concerns) is ignored forever.

It's hard sometimes to divide criticism of the market over criticism of the situation. Coyotes fans (no different from any other fans) are defensive of the market. And I think when you're the "going concern" in the league (and that's what the Coyotes have been this whole time) *everyone* suggesting relocation at worst or tepidly calling out flimsy ownership at best is an opponent to the cause. So it's only natural to engage with them all the same way.

Some (probably most, actually) of the people that are saying "told you so" this morning really didn't tell us anything. They were random Joe Blows and Jane Does who just refuse to accept the idea the NHL might succeed in the MARKET and probably don't understand sports business as good as they think they do. Whereas others were arguing ad nauseum that this wasn't a tenable SITUATION (of which admittedly the market is part, but only one part) and have been proven correct. But you can believe hockey can work in Arizona while also believing there's no way the team should have limped on like this as long as it did.

I think the league will be back in Arizona too but I'd be careful with the "no way" language. For the last 30 years I've been telling myself there's "no way" the NHL wouldn't eventually find itself in Houston and by God, that still hasn't happened...

 

[No Fun Shogun]

At the very least, it's good that the name is left open in case a team goes back even if Meruelo or, more likely, someone else wants to start fresh with a new brand.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I think the Coyotes are a tarnished brand in the market, they spent more than half the time they existed in annual limbo and were never really able to grow beyond their diehard fanbase for a variety of reasons.

A smart new NHL team would look to a new brand, something akin to the historic Roadrunners, rather than trying to rally around a Jets like "return" campaign

the only issue w/ that is Roadrunners already have had issues w/ that as it's been said, erroneously, that the existing team that AM retained as part of the transaction and it's doubtful Phoenix really wants that franchise rebranded for the 5th time

 

[Brodie]

Strong disagree on that concept. You want the brand because it has 28 years behind it. That's a generation of fans. It takes a loooooong time to have generations of fans who grew up with the team. Go look at the Atlanta thread, they want the THRASHERS back, not a new brand.

idk about this, it depends on how strong the brand is. You're going to win back all the existing Yotes fans regardless, most of them are not there for the name (I'm sure there's a contingent who are there for the logo but most of those types have grown into a more mature fandom).

I think some brands are bad and some can be tarnished. At the end of the day, nobody cared about almost 20 years of New Orleans Hornets basketball and their fans were happy enough to move on from it, for example

 

[aqib]

OK, so I had to watch the Oilers broadcast last night as I'm in the Oilers zone, so couldn't watch the Yotes broadcast. (Oilers didn't talk as much about relocation but did bring it up, including having Shane Doan stop by).

But consider this - the Yotes broadcasters have just lost their jobs. They have no incentive to keep pumping the tires for ownership. They're not going to go out guns-a-blazing (they still want to work in the league), but no reason to bring up.

I did see a screenshot on Twitter that supposedly the Arizona Coyotes did tweet out a "See you on June 27th" tweet last night (day of the land auction) but if they did they deleted it.

Have they? From the bits I've seen they are good at what they do, wouldn't they get reassigned to other beats or go with the team?

 

[cbcwpg]

I think it’s him failing as soon as possible. Then you can get to work on finding the next owner instead of waiting 5 years.

I think the slate will all get cleaned out on June 27th @ 11:00AM when the land auction starts and Meruelo is nowhere to be seen. ( JMO, but I don't think he even shows up ) . As well, the NHL should be talking to Meruelo right now and tell him to "read the room". No one in Arizona wants you as an owner.

At that point the NHL can start the process of trying to have a franchise in Arizona with proper ownership. Not going to make a prediction on this happening, but if Meruelo walks away, the NHL doesn't have to wait 5 years. They can start on this right away.

 

[KevFu]

It's hard sometimes to divide criticism of the market over criticism of the situation. Coyotes fans (no different from any other fans) are defensive of the market. And I think when you're the "going concern" in the league (and that's what the Coyotes have been this whole time) *everyone* suggesting relocation at worst or tepidly calling out flimsy ownership at best is an opponent to the cause. So it's only natural to engage with them all the same way.

But you can believe hockey can work in Arizona while also believing there's no way the team should have limped on like this as long as it did.

Well, as a long suffering Islanders fan who can relate to a drawn out, decades too long "arena/ownership/lease" drama that prevented the team from being "just another team" like anyone else, I've said it so often that it'll be on my HF tombstone: the concept of "good/bad market" doesn't exist.

The Rangers were #2 in revenue, the Devils were #15, the Islanders were #29, making the same market great, average and terrible at the same time. Or it's explained by the holy trinity of owner/arena/lease.

The point is: The Coyotes have diehard fans. If you're starting up an NHL team in Phoenix in the future, you want THEM on board. That's the whole reason the name/logo IP isn't being sold to Smith.

I think the league will be back in Arizona too but I'd be careful with the "no way" language. For the last 30 years I've been telling myself there's "no way" the NHL wouldn't eventually find itself in Houston and by God, that still hasn't happened...

The difference there is that the city of Houston gave the Rockets owner a 30-year no compete limiting the group of potential NHL Houston investors to one. The NHL has "never failed" in Houston, while you can't go six minutes in BOH without someone claiming the NHL has "failed twice" in Atlanta; and Atlanta's got two competing groups trying for a third go-round.

 

[Brodie]

Have they? From the bits I've seen they are good at what they do, wouldn't they get reassigned to other beats or go with the team?

up to the media rights partners the new team signs, I'd think... but even then, a lot of people aren't going to want to uproot their families. Probably also partly depends on if the AHL team shakes out.

For the PBP guys, they could probably get work in Arizona for another team if they wanted. Someone has to do ASU hockey or like Arizona football