CXLV - Tempe Entertainment District citizen referendum vote upcoming May 16th

[TheLegend]

Siedman Research report is now technically available to the public.,

The four former Tempe mayors who are endorsing the project wrote an op-ed that appears in the Arizona Republic this morning and a link to the report is in it.

Siedman Research study on the Tempe Entertainment District:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6182be9a8605f704a9188219/t/6443002d4eed675e0b907089/1682112558443/FINAL+REPORT+0416.pdf

The op-ed is here:

Arizona Coyotes have offered Tempe the best sports deal in state history. Here's why

Tempe has a $500 million landfill problem. The Arizona Coyotes have the solution. It's a win-win for all of Tempe.

www.azcentral.com

 

[Llama19]

This is the TV ad...airing in the Tempe/Ahwatukee market...

 

[Tawnos]

This is where people that don't go to games and/or use the project writ large (shops, etc.) have no one to blame but themselves if it goes through but they said nothing. But often times people wanting a vision like this either a--- actually count on the idea that the majority of the town *will* use it or b--- the ones that won't use it are too apathetic to actually *vote* on the matter.

I recall when my school voted to raise student fees to add football to the Athletics program. I voted for it (for a myriad of selfish reasons, some of which turned out to be misguided in hindsight) and it passed. But lo and behold, attendance---and *especially* student attendance--- has been an issue from the start and remains so. Whenever someone would say to me "but the students voted for this, why wouldn't they go?!?," I'd reply "the students that cared enough to vote at all voted for it, the vast majority didn't want it but also didn't hate the idea enough to vote against it (AKA vote at all)."

TL;DR: If you like this plan for your district as a selfish hockey fan, and it ends up leading to a building that's half-empty & the sales tax isn't covering it, that doesn't mean you voted wrong, it means a lot of other people should have raises their voice about the situation.

Yeah, turnout has a huge influence on any vote in general, but that's especially true for any special elections/referendum. I think the anti-TED vote has a more difficult job than the pro-TED vote, because people who want the hockey team are already going to be for this. Pro-TED has to gain more community support than just that, but they're starting from a higher baseline.

 

[PredsHead]

Siedman Research report is now technically available to the public.,

The four former Tempe mayors who are endorsing the project wrote an op-ed that appears in the Arizona Republic this morning and a link to the report is in it.

Siedman Research study on the Tempe Entertainment District:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6182be9a8605f704a9188219/t/6443002d4eed675e0b907089/1682112558443/FINAL+REPORT+0416.pdf

The op-ed is here:

Arizona Coyotes have offered Tempe the best sports deal in state history. Here's why

Tempe has a $500 million landfill problem. The Arizona Coyotes have the solution. It's a win-win for all of Tempe.

www.azcentral.com

Where does the $500M problem number come from? Isn't the estimate for remediation like $80M and perhaps another $10M to move the facilities?

 

[bleedblue94]

will there be any weekly update to the vote count or will they just reveal the results on the final day? it is my understanding that this is a multiweek mail in vote, correct?

 

[Llama19]

will there be any weekly update to the vote count or will they just reveal the results on the final day? it is my understanding that this is a multiweek mail in vote, correct?

A final count...will be published...sometime after...the mail-in only...deadline of May 16...and likely will be posted on the Tempe election page...

www.tempe.gov/government/city-clerk-s-office/election-information/may-16-2023-special-election

 

[Tawnos]

Where does the $500M problem number come from? Isn't the estimate for remediation like $80M and perhaps another $10M to move the facilities?

It's probably the total for redeveloping the land. $80m just for the remediation, but then you have to do something with it. Even turning it into green space costs a lot.

 

[TheLegend]

Where does the $500M problem number come from? Isn't the estimate for remediation like $80M and perhaps another $10M to move the facilities?

Yeah.... I saw that and did a Mr. Spock eyebrow raise on that one.

However... the longer Tempe waits to remediate that landfill the cost will rise. I'm seeing estimates of $90 million now.... just for remediation. But once you dig all that trash out, then you have to shore up the river bank where you just dug up what will be a 40 foot deep by a few hundred foot long hole.

 

[PredsHead]

It's probably the total for redeveloping the land. $80m just for the remediation, but then you have to do something with it. Even turning it into green space costs a lot.

It wouldn't cost $400M to make a park, maybe $40M at the most. Even with that in theory your remediation costs would be less since you wouldn't be digging as deep.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

For the non-locals who are desperate for "anything but the coyotes! please no not that!" that want to turn the area into a park, please be aware that there is already a large park area, steps away, that isn't going anywhere, on the south side of the river. Tempe Beach/Rio Salado/Neil Giuliano parks, plus the grounds of the new arts center.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

the area already does things like host triathlons, music festivals (e.g. the Innings Festival), what-have-you

 

[PredsHead]

Yeah.... I saw that and did a Mr. Spock eyebrow raise on that one.

However... the longer Tempe waits to remediate that landfill the cost will rise. I'm seeing estimates of $90 million now.... just for remediation. But once you dig all that trash out, then you have to shore up the river bank where you just dug up what will be a 40 foot deep by a few hundred foot long hole.

Wouldn't that depend greatly on how far down you end up digging? Also how much of the river reshoring was in case the lake is ever extended? Would it all be necessary if say just a retail and office space is there?

 

[PredsHead]

For the non-locals who are desperate for "anything but the coyotes! please no not that!" that want to turn the area into a park, please be aware that there is already a large park area, steps away, that isn't going anywhere, on the south side of the river. Tempe Beach/Rio Salado/Neil Giuliano parks, plus the grounds of the new arts center.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

the area already does things like host triathlons, music festivals (e.g. the Innings Festival), what-have-you

I don't think anyone here was actually suggesting it should be park just that a park or greenspace would likely be the cheapest alternative that still redevelops the land. We were trying to justify the $500M figure the mayors used in there op-ed.

 

[TheLegend]

Wouldn't that depend greatly on how far down you end up digging? Also how much of the river reshoring was in case the lake is ever extended? Would it all be necessary if say just a retail and office space is there?

They’ve already done core sample boring on the site. They have to go 40’ down to get under everything. The trash… the contaminated soil underneath, etc.

Once that’s done you have to support the exposed river bank somehow. You might be able to backfill but we’re talking 1.5 million cubic yards of clean fill you’d have to truck in from somewhere. Re-compact it to the same density to avoid shifting. And you still couldn’t guarantee it would remain stable if you put something there on it.

California built a major freeway over a landfill in San Diego in the mid 80’s. This article is from 2020 but to shows that some 35-40 years later, they’re still trying to tackle the problem of the roadbed sinking in various locations.

Caltrans tries again to tame the roller coaster ride that is San Diego’s Route 52

In Southern California, where the car has long been king, completion of a new section of freeway can be cause for celebration.So it was on two summer days in 1987 and 1988, when officials held four…

www.sandiegouniontribune.com

 

[PredsHead]

They’ve already done core sample boring on the site. They have to go 40’ down to get under everything. The trash… the contaminated soil underneath, etc.

Once that’s done you have to support the exposed river bank somehow. You might be able to backfill but we’re talking 1.5 million cubic yards of clean fill you’d have to truck in from somewhere. Re-compact it to the same density to avoid shifting. And you still couldn’t guarantee it would remain stable if you put something there on it.

California built a major freeway over a landfill in San Diego in the mid 80’s. This article is from 2020 but to shows that some 35-40 years later, they’re still trying to tackle the problem of the roadbed sinking in various locations.

Caltrans tries again to tame the roller coaster ride that is San Diego’s Route 52

In Southern California, where the car has long been king, completion of a new section of freeway can be cause for celebration.So it was on two summer days in 1987 and 1988, when officials held four…

www.sandiegouniontribune.com

How deep do they have to go for the arena itself? Unless I am missing it, the reshoring part is not in Tempe's original RFP. The remediation is in there, but I would have thought if the reshoring would be required it would be in there as well. Also if the remediation costs are fixed no mater the structure above, that does nothing to explain the $500M number mentioned in the op-ed.

 

[TheLegend]

How deep do they have to go for the arena itself? Unless I am missing it, the reshoring part is not in Tempe's original RFP. The remediation is in there, but I would have thought if the reshoring would be required it would be in there as well. Also if the remediation costs are fixed no mater the structure above, that does nothing to explain the $500M number mentioned in the op-ed.

I wasn’t addressing the $500 million. We both agree that was puzzling.

What I was explaining is no matter what you might build on the site, it’s not going to be that much different cost wise . The entire site would still have to be cleaned up regardless. Because it isn’t lined and the possibility that any toxins could leech themselves into the water table is extremely high.

And to be honest…. If it hadn’t been for the public link to the Seidman Reseach study I wouldn’t have posted it. But I like to be thorough when I do post these things.

 

[Snarky Coyote]

Just think in a week I can maybe finally post one way or another this will be over in


wait for it


2 weeks

 

[Boris Zubov]

Just think in a week I can maybe finally post one way or another this will be over in


wait for it


2 weeks

I have a hard time believing this saga will ever end. Even if the arena is approved or the team relocates, I'm never going to accept either as a conclusion.

 

[Tawnos]

I have a hard time believing this saga will ever end. Even if the arena is approved or the team relocates, I'm never going to accept either as a conclusion.

Meruelo sells Coyotes to Fertitta for $800m.

In two years, Meruelo finally gets TED approved… NHL awards him expansion team. Megathread resurrection.

 

[PredsHead]

Looks like a Arizona legislator is wanting an investigation into the Tempe special election. He is saying that he believes that Tempe violated state law by both requiring Bluebird to get a referendum passed in order to proceed with TED and in requiring Bluebird to pay for the referendum. You can read the entire letter written to the state Attorney General asking for an investigation. Arizona lawmaker wants investigation into Tempe's election for Coyotes arena

 

[TheLegend]

Looks like an Arizona legislator is wanting an investigation into the Tempe special election. He is saying that he believes that Tempe violated state law by both requiring Bluebird to get a referendum passed in order to proceed with TED and in requiring Bluebird to pay for the referendum. You can read the entire letter written to the state Attorney General asking for an investigation. Arizona lawmaker wants investigation into Tempe's election for Coyotes arena

He’s from district 29 which represents the northwest corner of Maricopa County and includes portion of…. Ta dahhh…. Glendale.

 

[PredsHead]

He’s from district 29 which represents the northwest corner of Maricopa County and includes portion of…. Ta dahhh…. Glendale.

How diabolical....

 

[TheLegend]

How diabolical....

No… just typical Arizona politics. The Mayor of Glendale is a former state legislator who knows his way around things.

When IceArizona was working on the joint project with ASU the state rep from Glendale at the time was running interference for the city.

 

[PredsHead]

No… just typical Arizona politics. The Mayor of Glendale is a former state legislator who knows his way around things.

When IceArizona was working on the joint project with ASU the state rep from Glendale at the time was running interference for the city.

Correct me if I am wrong but the mayor of Glendale and this legislator are both Republicans and the three Senators who wrote the op-ed opposing this are Democrats, right? I only point this out to show that there appears some b-partisanship in their opposition to this, not to try and assign one side or the other to this or any other issue.

 

[TheLegend]

Correct me if I am wrong but the mayor of Glendale and this legislator are both Republicans and the three Senators who wrote the op-ed opposing this are Democrats, right? I only point this out to show that there appears some b-partisanship in their opposition to this, not to try and assign one side or the other to this or any other issue.

And the four mayors of Tempe supporting it are split down party lines.

I told you at the outset this would be an economic turf fight and that’s exactly how it’s shaping up.

Everything else has just been foreplay.

 

[sh724]

Correct me if I am wrong but the mayor of Glendale and this legislator are both Republicans and the three Senators who wrote the op-ed opposing this are Democrats, right? I only point this out to show that there appears some b-partisanship in their opposition to this, not to try and assign one side or the other to this or any other issue.

Just because two opposing groups are supporting the same thing doesnt mean they are on the same page or want the same thing. I wont get into the politics but both groups have very different reasons for opposing the project. The dems being against it is a typical dems position across the country. The party affiliation of the mayor and the legislature has nothing to do with why they are against TED.

I have a hard time believing this saga will ever end. Even if the arena is approved or the team relocates, I'm never going to accept either as a conclusion.

If the referrendum passes we still have the lawsuits that need sorted out. Assuming all that gets sorted there is still a mariad of other things that could pop up before the arena opens