CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[Voight]

Call him what you want. He’s still a self-made billionaire.

Then ask yourself if he’s that bad, why did the NHL allow him in.

They also nearly let John Spanos in FWIW

 

[GreenHornet]

They also nearly let John Spanos in FWIW

I hate to sound like a broken record, but they DID let the Atlanta $pirit Septocluster™ in.

 

[TheLegend]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but they DID let the Atlanta $pirit Septocluster™ in.

Did they have much choice, though??

Not familiar with how ASG acquired everything but wondering had the NHL not approved them as owners of the Thrashers could it have left them arenaless back then.

 

[dj4aces]

Did they have much choice, though??

Not familiar with how ASG acquired everything but wondering had the NHL not approved them as owners of the Thrashers could it have left them arenaless back then.

Atlanta Spirit acquired everything because Turner Broadcasting, after agreeing to sell to David McDavid, sold the three properties to the group Ted Turner's son was a part of. McDavid followed this up by suing Turner Broadcasting for breach of contract (McDavid vs. Turner Broadcasting)

As for the question of what would've happened had the transfer of ownership not been approved? That's certainly an interesting one. I think that would render the franchise dormant until an approved owner could be found. With Philips being the only arena in town capable of housing a NHL team, this could've seen the Thrashers demise come much sooner. But I really don't know for sure how this would've worked... I'm just trying to approach this logically.

 

[hangman005]

They also nearly let John Spanos in FWIW

I've always wondered how Spano wasn't part of the Coyotes saga, it somehow feels even more wrong.

 

[StreetHawk]

Phoenix as a market is too big to just simply ignore forever. It won't be anytime soon but they'll get another crack at it I think. Hopefully this time it will be someone who actually is worth a damn.

Really up to the NBA owner at this point to want an NHL club. I mean, otherwise, you are going to have to figure out how to get an NHL arena in that region and make it work financially. Going to have to be something like ATL now if that's going to be the case.

 

[KevFu]

Really up to the NBA owner at this point to want an NHL club. I mean, otherwise, you are going to have to figure out how to get an NHL arena in that region and make it work financially. Going to have to be something like ATL now if that's going to be the case.

To me, it really hinges more on the Diamondbacks than the Suns.

The DBacks are in the market for a new stadium, since Chase hits the 30-year mark after the 2027 season. And Chase was just designed and built too close to the previous era, where capacity came first and like "fan amenities, walking around" came second. The other major problem they have with it is the roof, where opening it to get the sun on the grass is problematic.

Anyhow, the point is... Chase is on a very prime piece of real estate. And already has the infrastructure necessary because it was built for 55,000 fans.

If the DBacks vacate Chase, you could build a legit NHL arena and plaza under the roof of Chase very easily (and do most your construction in the air conditioning!)

 

[Shwan]

If the DBacks vacate Chase, you could build a legit NHL arena and plaza under the roof of Chase very easily (and do most your construction in the air conditioning!)

Chase Field is barely 800 feet away from Footprint center. Putting a 18,000 arena next to another 18,000 arena that close would certainly be a bold strategy.

Though we are the home to Dutch Brothers, Starbucks and Blackrock Coffee Bar all fighting each other on the same intersection so who knows

 

[KevFu]

Chase Field is barely 800 feet away from Footprint center. Putting a 18,000 arena next to another 18,000 arena that close would certainly be a bold strategy.

Though we are the home to Dutch Brothers, Starbucks and Blackrock Coffee Bar all fighting each other on the same intersection so who knows

I mean, I hear you... but Chase has been 800 feet from Footprint Center for the last 26 years, so really you're just taking out 33,000 unsold seats!

 

[TheLegend]

To me, it really hinges more on the Diamondbacks than the Suns.

The DBacks are in the market for a new stadium, since Chase hits the 30-year mark after the 2027 season. And Chase was just designed and built too close to the previous era, where capacity came first and like "fan amenities, walking around" came second. The other major problem they have with it is the roof, where opening it to get the sun on the grass is problematic.

Anyhow, the point is... Chase is on a very prime piece of real estate. And already has the infrastructure necessary because it was built for 55,000 fans.

If the DBacks vacate Chase, you could build a legit NHL arena and plaza under the roof of Chase very easily (and do most your construction in the air conditioning!)

Diamondbacks are currently working on an extension to the lease at Chase.

Hall: Diamondbacks in talks to extend lease at Chase Field

The D-backs are in discussions to extend their lease at Chase Field with Maricopa County before a funding a deal to upgrade the facility.

arizonasports.com

 

[aqib]

To me, it really hinges more on the Diamondbacks than the Suns.

The DBacks are in the market for a new stadium, since Chase hits the 30-year mark after the 2027 season. And Chase was just designed and built too close to the previous era, where capacity came first and like "fan amenities, walking around" came second. The other major problem they have with it is the roof, where opening it to get the sun on the grass is problematic.

Anyhow, the point is... Chase is on a very prime piece of real estate. And already has the infrastructure necessary because it was built for 55,000 fans.

If the DBacks vacate Chase, you could build a legit NHL arena and plaza under the roof of Chase very easily (and do most your construction in the air conditioning!)

So you build the arena inside the stadium and then tear down the stadium around it?

 

[BMN]

For example, the Atlanta Braves won titles in other cities before Atlanta but the Braves organization LOVES to highlight the other teams. There are TONS of Milwaukee and Boston imagery and callbacks in Truist Park. And it doesn't have to be the Braves name either - we claim the histories of the....*checks notes* Boston Bees, Boston Rustlers, Boston Doves, Boston Beaneaters, Boston Red Caps, and Boston Red Stockings. The Braves play no less than twice annually in Boston and Milwaukee uniforms.

Know why....? Themed nights and Merchandise! Have some AVCO trophy nights and give away mini-replicas. You can do it 3 times in one year - COLLECT THEM ALL! If it's part of the deal, or you get first rights, the cost would be minimal to the ROI.

Another draw for the Braves is their (accurate) boast of being the oldest continually operating professional sports franchise in North America. They're not the flat out oldest (that'd be the Cubs) or the oldest with the same name/city the whole time (that'd be the Toronto Argonauts). But they are the oldest to field a team every year of their existence, so to play up that fact, you have to defacto play up the other history.

I can't remember if they have something similar at Truist but I do remember that at the northwest entrance of Turner Field, they had a prominent display playing up the "oldest continously operating" point.

The sad converse point, though?: in the Big 4 Sports, focusing solely on the actual final championships (not division titles, etc.), Atlanta hangs less banners for titles won in its own city (1995, 2021) than it does for titles won elsewhere (one each for the Boston Braves, Milwaukee Braves and St. Louis Hawks).

 

[KevFu]

Diamondbacks are currently working on an extension to the lease at Chase.

Hall: Diamondbacks in talks to extend lease at Chase Field

The D-backs are in discussions to extend their lease at Chase Field with Maricopa County before a funding a deal to upgrade the facility.

arizonasports.com

That's good. It has good bones.

So you build the arena inside the stadium and then tear down the stadium around it?

In the hypothetical that the DBacks leave (which new info doesn't point me towards)...

Why tear down the stadium around it? Just make the excess space an indoor plaza. Everyone is going for "mixed use development" projects, you can have shops and bars and restaurants to lure people to the area... but keep that INSIDE the big air conditioned box of the old baseball stadium. You'd get more people going and hanging out year-round that way.

 

[Headshot77]

Building the NHL arena inside Chase and the tearing down chase is the most ridiculous thing I've heard on this site.

The Diamondbacks should live at Chase forever, and they should negotiate a massive renovation to modernize it a bit. Baseball stadiums are too specialized to justify entire teardowns and rebuilds unless you're the Oakland A's

 

[aqib]

That's good. It has good bones.



In the hypothetical that the DBacks leave (which new info doesn't point me towards)...

Why tear down the stadium around it? Just make the excess space an indoor plaza. Everyone is going for "mixed use development" projects, you can have shops and bars and restaurants to lure people to the area... but keep that INSIDE the big air conditioned box of the old baseball stadium. You'd get more people going and hanging out year-round that way.

So you're thinking big entertainment district with a retractable roof and major league arena under it?

 

[Ciao]

Building the NHL arena inside Chase and the tearing down chase is the most ridiculous thing I've heard on this site.

That covers a lot of ground.

 

[Shwan]

So you're thinking big entertainment district with a retractable roof and major league arena under it?

Kinder Joy Arena

 

[Whileee]

Those drive times you show from Google do not take into consideration what rush hour is like around Phoenix Metro.

Even the players would say it took them at least 90 minutes to get from their homes in the Scottsdale area out to Glendale on game days. And that’s before the heaviest part of rush hour hits.

I mean it’s great that you drive 2.5 hours in subzero weather to watch the Jets. If 15,000 more of your fellow Jets fans all said the same thing then I’d definitely be impressed. But somehow I doubt that’s going to happen as we all saw how Jets attendance was running earlier this past season.

The glassiest of glass houses there, TL.

Jets went for a dozen years with complete sellouts at high ticket prices and the lowest corporate ticket base in Canada by a very long way. The Covid related economic shock hit the Jets' market hard, mainly because the vast majority of ticket sales were to regular fans.

A big challenge for Arizona is going to be the very high cost for an expansion franchise or franchise purchase. The Yotes (like the Jets) had low purchase prices, but a new owner will need to pay out up to 10-fold more than the owners that tried to make it work. They'll need a very lucrative business proposition to justify that level of investment.

 

[TheLegend]

The glassiest of glass houses there, TL.

Jets went for a dozen years with complete sellouts at high ticket prices and the lowest corporate ticket base in Canada by a very long way. The Covid related economic shock hit the Jets' market hard, mainly because the vast majority of ticket sales were to regular fans.

A big challenge for Arizona is going to be the very high cost for an expansion franchise or franchise purchase. The Yotes (like the Jets) had low purchase prices, but a new owner will need to pay out up to 10-fold more than the owners that tried to make it work. They'll need a very lucrative business proposition to justify that level of investment.

You know I’m a fan of TNSE right???

Big difference in having an group spending 10 years working towards getting a hockey team (after losing one) to play in an arena built purposely for hockey…… and a team that was dropped into a market on short notice to an arena that had ice making capabilities primarily for Ice Capades and Disney On Ice.

That said…. I agree the cost is going to get a team back in Arizona is going to be high.

Not only that…. The climate for building a third arena is going to be hostile… even if you find a group willing to foot the entire bill.

 

[Whileee]

You know I’m a fan of TNSE right???

Big difference in having an group spending 10 years working towards getting a hockey team (after losing one) to play in an arena built purposely for hockey…… and a team that was dropped into a market on short notice to an arena that had ice making capabilities primarily for Ice Capades and Disney On Ice.

That said…. I agree the cost is going to get a team back in Arizona is going to be high.

Not only that…. The climate for building a third arena is going to be hostile… even if you find a group willing to foot the entire bill.

I think the NHL will remain highly motivated to return an NHL franchise to Arizona, but one of the reasons they fought so long and hard to sustain the existing franchise was because the challenge and cost of starting afresh will be substantial.

As you note, it will not only take an owner willing to make a major investment for the purchase or expansion fee (probably $1 billion or more), but also an ideal venue and business plan to make the investment worthwhile.

It must be highly frustrating for fans and also for the NHL that all of the putative and short-term owners turned out to be so unserious and/or insubstantial. Now, they will need a bona fide owner with deep pockets and a rock-solid arena plan to pull it off.

One hope for a discounted price might be that another franchise falters at some point in the future, with Arizona as the best landing place. But for Arizona to be at the front of the line they will need to have a solid local group that has an arena solution and has developed a relationship with the NHL. That was how TNSE brought the Jets back to Winnipeg (didn't hurt that they had one of N America's wealthiest persons to help bankroll it).

 

[aqib]

You know I’m a fan of TNSE right???

Big difference in having an group spending 10 years working towards getting a hockey team (after losing one) to play in an arena built purposely for hockey…… and a team that was dropped into a market on short notice to an arena that had ice making capabilities primarily for Ice Capades and Disney On Ice.

That said…. I agree the cost is going to get a team back in Arizona is going to be high.

Not only that…. The climate for building a third arena is going to be hostile… even if you find a group willing to foot the entire bill.

You realize they had an AHL team in the arena at the time. I think the ice plant was more for the 36 AHL regular season games than Disney on Ice.

As you mentioned the arena issue is way to huge of a hurdle. The arena cost $133.5 million to built in 2003 (about $100 million USD at the time) Adjusted for inflation that's roughly $230CAD/$200MUSD. That was also the only arena capable of hosting major events in the city not the 3rd.