CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

[Tawnos]

The new government came in and added stipulations that crushed the deal, I believe. I mean if you can't even get a new arena built in Alberta..

It'll be interesting to see how the Ottawa situation shakes out.

From what I understand, the cost went from $550m to $634m and the Flames balked at that. Again, the city was willing to pay.

 

[MNNumbers]

LOL. Dude, they aren't building their own arena, do you actually believe in this fantasy?

Just because a local government built an arena at some point shouldn't mean they are married to the franchise forever. Leases will be ending etc.



I dunno about mafia, but that's how lockouts work.



The new government came in and added stipulations that crushed the deal, I believe. I mean if you can't even get a new arena built in Alberta..

It'll be interesting to see how the Ottawa situation shakes out.

I'm afraid you are going to be unhappy. That's my guess. It's going to be a private/public partnership, with the arena built on the LeBreton Flats, and the team won't be paying every penny.

 

[MNNumbers]

If the team owns the stadium, then yes they should be required to pay for their own upgrades. But not a lot of teams own the arenas they play in(even in the NFL). This is about to change in Tempe, but you are still against them building their own arena. I just think you don't like sports and want nothing fun in life at this point.

LOL. Dude, they aren't building their own arena, do you actually believe in this fantasy?

Um, Ernie, they are too building their own arena. The part that might or might not be the contribution of Tempe has nothing at all to do with the actual building. We've covered this. You objected to infrastucture and land remediation. Call that what you want, but that's not part of the 'building'. You objected to the GPLET. That comes after the arena is built.

The city is NOT doing anything associated with the actual building, and after 30 years, the lease is going to disappear, and so is the GPLET, and Bluebird is going to be owning the arena.

 

[TheLegend]

Um, Ernie, they are too building their own arena. The part that might or might not be the contribution of Tempe has nothing at all to do with the actual building. We've covered this. You objected to infrastucture and land remediation. Call that what you want, but that's not part of the 'building'. You objected to the GPLET. That comes after the arena is built.

The city is NOT doing anything associated with the actual building, and after 30 years, the lease is going to disappear, and so is the GPLET, and Bluebird is going to be owning the arena.

Tempe's "part" is purely the infrastructure required for servicing the entire project.

Which is the responsibility of any city.

Remember the Tohono's casino Glendale fought to stop? In the end they paid for all the infrastructure to supply the project which they have no control over since it's part of the reservation. They will also receive no taxes from it, forever. The only thing they get is an annual set amount of money for 20 years to cover their potential expenses around the site ($26 million total).

 

[TheLegend]

So you are looking at a mafia like "squeeze" going on? Hmm. I wouldn't have guessed it, but you never know what these guys might try

Subsequent posts tell me you were thinking "insurance policy" here.

In some respects I agree with you that the NHL put one over on Glendale with that, but that was when the league owned the franchise. However they don't own it any more.

Yet somehow Alex Meruelo appears to be forced to carry that baggage around. Not that he hasn't made a few gaffes himself but even in that case we've only heard one side of that story, and it's come from entities who are heavily motivated to see only their side is heard.

 

[MNNumbers]

Subsequent posts tell me you were thinking "insurance policy" here.

In some respects I agree with you that the NHL put one over on Glendale with that, but that was when the league owned the franchise. However they don't own it any more.

Yet somehow Alex Meruelo appears to be forced to carry that baggage around. Not that he hasn't made a few gaffes himself but even in that case we've only heard one side of that story, and it's come from entities who are heavily motivated to see only their side is heard.

Hey Legend,
Please don't confuse my disregard for Bettman, IA, Barroway, etc.....with my feelings about Meruelo. One thing you have to credit the guy for, he's put his money into getting the proposal to a referendum. He's willing to let the voters decide his fate, and he has some $$ that could be simply a loss if it doesn't go.

Tempe is pretty well indemnified here, and I think that is the main feature that the city wanted. There are nocost overruns which they are responsible for, no hidden fees, it's explicit the caps at what they have to pay at various stages. It's nicely done on their part, and the only part that they had to give in one is a 30 instead of 8 year GPLET.

My 'squeeze' comment was directed toward Ernie's idea that the owners might squeeze the players to pay for the next round of arenas. I guess I wouldn't put that past them, but that would be a very heated CBA negotiation.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Ernie won't like this report regarding upgrades to AT&T Stadium.

MSN

The Dallas Cowboys will reportedly be looking to get some assistance with paying for the multimillion-dollar renovation project, Dallas Innovates reports. The Cowboys will be inquiring with the league, asking the NFL if it will allow the franchise to withhold its usual contributions to shared gate revenue.

According to Dallas Innovates, to be able to pay for the work, the Cowboys will also be requesting a waiver to the $600 million team debt limit that the league imposes on all 32 NFL franchises.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Hey,
Some of us, you, me, Legend, even Llama, have been up and down this river many times. I would feel bad for the fans losing their team. I really would. I don't think you would doubt me on that.

Bettman: The way he dealt with Glendale was as close to criminal as possible without crossing the line. His ability to tell you absolutely nothing and couch in a tone that says, "Don't question me. I'm the authority here." really bothers me. You can say it's a little weird. I disagree. I think that dishonest people should eventually have to face up to their dishonesty. I know that's a value judgment, but it's how I feel.

One of my favorite shots is of his looking at his blackberry when the news broke that Atlanta had sold to Winnipeg. It was a contortion, and I'm sure it was mostly because he wasn't in control any more.

That's what I want to see more of.

I do agree with him about the playoffs though. No expansion needed.

ehhh the reason Bettman was shaking his head at the phone was that the deal actually wasn't done at that point.

And he was pretty much in control of that from the beginning. If you read the tea leaves, Bettman basically cultivated Winnipeg as a back-up plan as soon as plans to build the MTS Centre were drawn up. Maybe he was annoyed at having to use his back-up plan, but I don't think it was a loss of control.

I heard a story that Mark Chipman was on a call with Bettman, who was saying how bad it was, and Chipman said "you think you've got it bad, listen to this," and stuck his phone out the window as he was passing by portage and main, lol.

 

[awfulwaffle]

LOL. Dude, they aren't building their own arena, do you actually believe in this fantasy?

Just because a local government built an arena at some point shouldn't mean they are married to the franchise forever. Leases will be ending etc.

Ok I'm done with you, you just have no clue what this deal is about.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Also, from the way you answered this question, I must ask another question: What is the optimal size of the NHL in your world?

I'd say 36 teams imo. Add Houston, Hamilton, QC, and SLC/ Portland.

 

[TheLegend]

Hey Legend,
Please don't confuse my disregard for Bettman, IA, Barroway, etc.....with my feelings about Meruelo. One thing you have to credit the guy for, he's put his money into getting the proposal to a referendum. He's willing to let the voters decide his fate, and he has some $$ that could be simply a loss if it doesn't go.

Tempe is pretty well indemnified here, and I think that is the main feature that the city wanted. There are nocost overruns which they are responsible for, no hidden fees, it's explicit the caps at what they have to pay at various stages. It's nicely done on their part, and the only part that they had to give in one is a 30 instead of 8 year GPLET.

My 'squeeze' comment was directed toward Ernie's idea that the owners might squeeze the players to pay for the next round of arenas. I guess I wouldn't put that past them, but that would be a very heated CBA negotiation.

No… I didn’t. I knew you were being critical of Bettman primarily. Getting Glendale to fork up the two $25 million payments and then backing out of the sale to Jamison (Hulsizer was a poser) which cost them that second payment was not a real nice thing to do given how much the city put into sticking with them all that time.

 

[MNNumbers]

No… I didn’t. I knew you were being critical of Bettman primarily. Getting Glendale to fork up the two $25 million payments and then backing out of the sale to Jamison (Hulsizer was a poser) which cost them that second payment was not a real nice thing to do given how much the city put into sticking with them all that time.

That's right. He took advantage of them. They were ignorant of the real world, and to Bettman, they were an easy mark, and he used them.

That's why I was happy when they canceled the 15M/yr AMF lease.

 

[AZDesertKnight]

It's so wild to me that people have the time to write essays about something, taking a steadfast position in something that has absolutely NOTHING to do with them.

Nobody crying about The Flames wanting 50% up front for their rink, from the City or the province but because it's AZ..

 

[TheLegend]

You can't resist the nasty little snipes, can you?

It was an analytical observation. Rather than spend a couple of paragraphs explaining it I kept it short and to the point.

I spent the better part of a week digging up information for everyone (regardless of the good, bad and/or ugly of it) and if someone continues to ignore that and continue to espouse the same talking points from months ago all the while evading challenges to show exactly how that information fits what they're rambling on about then yes... calling it like it is seems to be warranted.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

It's so wild to me that people have the time to write essays about something, taking a steadfast position in something that has absolutely NOTHING to do with them.

Nobody crying about The Flames wanting 50% up front for their rink, from the City or the province but because it's AZ..

Ernie has been very consistent on Calgary arena boondoggle too.

 

[gstommylee]

Ernie has been very consistent on Calgary arena boondoggle too.

Erine basically wants everything to be all private EVERYTHING. Not a single penny from the city to the team. Not for infrastructure, not for utilities, and in tempe's case cleaning up the land that they own. Not a single penny.

What he wants is out right impossible and doesn't understand how local city government works.

Every private business project no matter how its funded or what its intent is for has the private side and the public side. Its impossible to get rid of the public side of it since that's not how government works. The city still has its responsibility to fund the public side of private projects whether Erine likes it or not.

Regarding the TED project, the Tempe isn't putting a darn penny to the buildings which is the private side of the project. What they are doing is putting money which will get paid back over time to the public side of things which again Erine doesn't like and wants the yotes to pay for that too.

 

[AZDesertKnight]

Ernie has been very consistent on Calgary arena boondoggle too.

I wasn't naming names but hey, that's cool.. also see his burrows avatar so that's no surprise he'd be anti Calgary too

 

[TheLegend]

AFA Calgary goes I took the city’s side when the Flames backed out of the deal. City was already putting a hefty chunk of change into it and for the Flames to balk at covering a potential overrun of roughly 1-2% to the cost of the whole project was a bit ludicrous.

If Meruelo manages the get TED built I think it’s going to have a lot of current NHL cities looking at how they crafted the deal in/when negotiating any future deals.

 

[AZDesertKnight]

AFA Calgary goes I took the city’s side when the Flames backed out of the deal. City was already putting a hefty chunk of change into it and for the Flames to balk at covering a potential overrun of roughly 1-2% to the cost of the whole project was a bit ludicrous.

If Meruelo manages the get TED built I think it’s going to have a lot of current NHL cities looking at how they crafted the deal in/when negotiating any future deals.

Exactly.. All of these deals will include some level of government involvement but they can and should also leave it up to the voters.. not city council body's

 

[JimAnchower]

Erine basically wants everything to be all private EVERYTHING. Not a single penny from the city to the team. Not for infrastructure, not for utilities, and in tempe's case cleaning up the land that they own. Not a single penny.

What he wants is out right impossible and doesn't understand how local city government works.

Every private business project no matter how its funded or what its intent is for has the private side and the public side. Its impossible to get rid of the public side of it since that's not how government works. The city still has its responsibility to fund the public side of private projects whether Erine likes it or not.

Regarding the TED project, the Tempe isn't putting a darn penny to the buildings which is the private side of the project. What they are doing is putting money which will get paid back over time to the public side of things which again Erine doesn't like and wants the yotes to pay for that too.

As an aside, there is a hotel/restaurant development by my house that opened a couple years ago. A ramen noodle place wants to go in where a Subway used to be. The ramen noodle shop will receive upwards of $50,000 in municipal grants just by moving into that development/location.

 

[awfulwaffle]

As an aside, there is a hotel/restaurant development by my house that opened a couple years ago. A ramen noodle place wants to go in where a Subway used to be. The ramen noodle shop will receive upwards of $50,000 in municipal grants just by moving into that development/location.

Pretty much every single business gets some kind of tax break or incentive to open a location. It's asinine to believe otherwise.

 

[aqib]

Pretty much every single business gets some kind of tax break or incentive to open a location. It's asinine to believe otherwise.

I have long argued that sports gets a bad rap when compared to the total amount of incentives given out to private businesses.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

So we're putting much just waiting for the public to vote on the Tempe project next spring, right? There really is nothing else of relevance regarding the fate of the Coyotes until then, correct?

 

[AZDesertKnight]

So we're putting much just waiting for the public to vote on the Tempe project next spring, right? There really is nothing else of relevance regarding the fate of the Coyotes until then, correct?

Pretty much

 

[gstommylee]

So we're putting much just waiting for the public to vote on the Tempe project next spring, right? There really is nothing else of relevance regarding the fate of the Coyotes until then, correct?

The team isn't going anywhere for 3-4 years and its been mentioned there is a plan b.