CXLIII - UPDATED 6/3 - Coyotes arena deal takes next step after Tempe council votes to open negotiations
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awfulwaffle
Registered User
Pretty insightful stuff, this swayed my opinion.
Chet Manley
Registered User
Why are people talking about a 30 year lease on a property he is paying for? The city will still own the land or new arena? I know the city getting ownership of the arena is pretty common when they are chipping in funds, but I'm not familiar enough with this development.
awfulwaffle
Registered User
Pretty insightful stuff, this swayed my opinion.
It's not a lease, just a guarantee the team won't leave for 30 years. Muerelo will own the team and the building. Pretty straight forward stuff.
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
To be honest I’m not sure how that will work yet either.
Which is why the league is providing the 30-year no move clause. Meruelo can sell the team but it couldn’t be moved assuring Tempe that the arena wouldn’t be left without a tenant.
Then again…. (and this is me spitballing) word is ASU is interested in moving their men’s basketball team there. It’s close enough to the campus to where if it got down to it they could buy the arena themselves if it came to that
However there’s just too many pieces to this to figure out. Now that it’s come to the public stage hopefully we can learn more.
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
This was the item councilwoman Kuby put up during the final discussion period prior to the vote.
Note that their "analysis does not define" what the dataset was. Meruelo has owned the franchise barely two years and most of it was during a pandemic.
Should note at this point councilwoman Kuby was the person who received a letter from a Glendale councilman in February of 2021 with the original Katie Strang article on the Coyotes attached, from Glendale councilman Bart Turner.
https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2021/08/02/emails-show-coyotes-tempe-arena-discussions.html
Kuby is leaving the council in 30 days. But she's running for seat on the AZ Corporation Commission (which is a BIG step up in the AZ political ladder) with an "anti-corruption" platform and her little stunt last night could be interpreted as campaigning from office. Two other council members even called her out for "filibustering".
Dirty Old Man
Yotah Hockey Club
And what a glorious day that will be when they finally take their balls and go home from here.
Im not sure why she needed to take a shot at the fanbase - pretty unprofessional even by political standards. The mulch lady was more professional.
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
The first rep for the airport tried the same thing when he starts out saying he was a hockey fan, owned a Coyotes jersey but thought he should “dress better for the occasion.”
KevFu
Registered User
A "team owns the land and leases it to the building owner" is probably the most likely situation. That's usually how it works for publicly financed arenas, the land lease serves as "paying back" the public financing. In this case, it's more about the guarantee that it's not an "abandoned shopping mall" situation.
I was suggesting ASU MBB in the early days of the ASU agreement. It makes perfect sense that ASU MBB plays games there in an amount greater than zero; When they have a game with a demand for more than 14000 tickets; if they want to host a preseason tournament; if they want to renovate/replace their current arena -- which is coming up on 50 years old.
And if that was in fact a "campaigning from office while on the clock", she could be in volition of state law. Not that it matters since she's out of there in 30 days.
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
She was skirting it… but not enough.
Our state AG has been far worse and nothing will be done about it.
If Meruelo is so smart why where the coyotes almost got kicked out out there arena in the middle of the season because they could not pay there rent ?
Also why is the NHL. & some former coyotes players are so hell bent on keeping them in Arizona while no one cares if the stay or go after all the Coyotes are the most worthless team in just not the NHL. but in all of North American pro sports at just $250 million while the next closest worthless team the Miami Marlins at around $900 million which dose not sound so worthless after all so if Merlueo wants to go Bankrupt fine because that's what will happen if this goes through so if he is smart he take is money & move the coyotes to Houston where there is a nice new arena where he can actually make money instead thinking he could make money method in Arizona .
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
Meruelo wants to keep the team in Arizona. Doesn’t matter what you or anyone else thinks. As long as he has a path that has a chance the league will support it.
I’m not going to even bother with the rest of your post since those points have been shot down, debunked, or deflated umpteen times already. And not just by me.
KevFu
Registered User
There's a very large difference between "Could not" and "had not."
Have you heard any reports of Meruelo not paying bills until AFTER Glendale terminated the lease with the Coyotes?
Because the Coyotes made payment on June 30 the previous years. And once the report came out the Coyotes were late, and in danger of being evicted, they paid before the deadline.
The people who want to the Coyotes to move look at something that could amount to "Alice from Accounts Payable quit in May, and her replacement thought it was already done" as a sign $250 million sports franchise is toast.
KevFu
Registered User
I'd add that the league has always been in favor of keeping teams where they are, and relocation is a last resort. No one made an offer at a dollar amount that would keep Winnipeg, Quebec and Atlanta from moving; and the owners of Minnesota and Hartford weren't selling and wanted to move.
But when would-be owners tried to move Edmonton, New Jersey, Nashville, and Arizona; the league did everything in their power to keep them where they were.
That's what you WANT out of the NHL. It should be last-resort to move. Of course if you don't have a team, you want it to be easy to get one; but if you have one, you don't want them leaving. Atlanta, Hartford, Minnesota, Quebec and Winnipeg fans of course should be upset and frustrated that they lost teams; but that doesn't mean it's okay for it to happen again to another fan base.
Here's what stuck out to me from last week:
Tempe Agreement
I think this one quote from the Mayor summarizes the current status perfectly: "The offer you see right now is probably not at all the same offer you're going to see by the time we come back to vote on an actual development agreement" - Corey Woods. The initial proposal apparently called for a significant GPLET and the Coyotes were suggesting that future tax revenues can be used as part of the proportionality test under the AZ Gift Clause. However, the AZ Supreme Court made very clear in the Peoria case that future tax projections are not part of the calculation. Tempe could pass massive GPLET funding for the plan anyway, and dare Goldwater or others to sue the to stop it - but that seems unlikely. Without the GPLET tool at their disposal, they're basically trying to squeeze water out of a rock. We'll see what, if anything, they come up with. However, I think the initial plan or any plan that relies on that scheme is dead on arrival. They're going to have to be more creative.
Airport
I do not know the inner workings of the Tempe / Phoenix relationship. I saw the pandering op-ed from former Phoenix mayors and I saw the ludicrous financial projections and moronic "we're going to land the defunct A380" stuff. I simply do not view this as a legitimate obstacle to the project. Whatever beef the cities have likely has nothing to do with the actual project. In my experience, these type of inter-governmental spats get horse traded away. However, we are not nearly close enough to a final agreement for the parties to sit at the table and hammer it out. From Tempe's perspective, they dont have to even entertain the Phoenix gambit until they figure out if they can even get this arena thing off the ground. If it's GPLET or nothing, it's already dead.
30-Year No Relocation
This seems like a typical throw away statement by Bettman. It's meant to give the politicians he needs approvals from the impression of assurance - but if we pause to think about it logically - when the parties to the "no relo" are just the NHL and the team, it's worthless. They can revoke the agreement just as easily as they created it. Only the lease(s) with the public entity are binding - and even that is somewhat questionable. I saw someone mention the Sonics, and that's a pretty good example of how specific performance can be pierced. (Marquette Law has a good analysis of how enforcing leases and other variables that come into play when franchises relocate, using Sonics as specific case: https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1585&context=facpub).
I view the Bettman "No Relo" as a completely worthless PR tool. I understand why he does stuff like that, but it's rather disingenuous.
Councilmember Kuby
I dont really get some of the posts about Kuby. The Legislative Branch has a speech and debate clause. She can say anything she wants in the chamber. The suggestion that she committed some type of violation that should prompt AG action seems rather absurd to me. I can understand if folks do not appreciate her position (or her fashion sense) - but to try to shoehorn that into some type of ethics violation is way too close to TeamBeavis territory for me. But do as you see fit.
Tempe Agreement
I think this one quote from the Mayor summarizes the current status perfectly: "The offer you see right now is probably not at all the same offer you're going to see by the time we come back to vote on an actual development agreement" - Corey Woods. The initial proposal apparently called for a significant GPLET and the Coyotes were suggesting that future tax revenues can be used as part of the proportionality test under the AZ Gift Clause. However, the AZ Supreme Court made very clear in the Peoria case that future tax projections are not part of the calculation. Tempe could pass massive GPLET funding for the plan anyway, and dare Goldwater or others to sue the to stop it - but that seems unlikely. Without the GPLET tool at their disposal, they're basically trying to squeeze water out of a rock. We'll see what, if anything, they come up with. However, I think the initial plan or any plan that relies on that scheme is dead on arrival. They're going to have to be more creative.
Airport
I do not know the inner workings of the Tempe / Phoenix relationship. I saw the pandering op-ed from former Phoenix mayors and I saw the ludicrous financial projections and moronic "we're going to land the defunct A380" stuff. I simply do not view this as a legitimate obstacle to the project. Whatever beef the cities have likely has nothing to do with the actual project. In my experience, these type of inter-governmental spats get horse traded away. However, we are not nearly close enough to a final agreement for the parties to sit at the table and hammer it out. From Tempe's perspective, they dont have to even entertain the Phoenix gambit until they figure out if they can even get this arena thing off the ground. If it's GPLET or nothing, it's already dead.
30-Year No Relocation
This seems like a typical throw away statement by Bettman. It's meant to give the politicians he needs approvals from the impression of assurance - but if we pause to think about it logically - when the parties to the "no relo" are just the NHL and the team, it's worthless. They can revoke the agreement just as easily as they created it. Only the lease(s) with the public entity are binding - and even that is somewhat questionable. I saw someone mention the Sonics, and that's a pretty good example of how specific performance can be pierced. (Marquette Law has a good analysis of how enforcing leases and other variables that come into play when franchises relocate, using Sonics as specific case: https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1585&context=facpub).
I view the Bettman "No Relo" as a completely worthless PR tool. I understand why he does stuff like that, but it's rather disingenuous.
Councilmember Kuby
I dont really get some of the posts about Kuby. The Legislative Branch has a speech and debate clause. She can say anything she wants in the chamber. The suggestion that she committed some type of violation that should prompt AG action seems rather absurd to me. I can understand if folks do not appreciate her position (or her fashion sense) - but to try to shoehorn that into some type of ethics violation is way too close to TeamBeavis territory for me. But do as you see fit.
awfulwaffle
Registered User
I dont know how much you know about asu basketball, but the only game that would ever reach that is the uofa game. The program stinks, and has stunk for years.
I'm happy the league works hard to keep the teams in place as best they can. At the same time there is some markets that just don't work and it's not just hockey. Miami, Atlanta and Phoenix are bad sports markets
Throw in all of the Canadian markets outside of Toronto as bad sports markets. While you are at it move the Senators too.
TheGreenTBer
i got the world up my ass
- Apr 30, 2021
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That may be true (never lived in Phoenix or Atlanta but in the case of Miami, it IS true) but it's beside the point because the everyday Joe Schmoe fan isn't the way the NHL makes money anymore.
Looks like the Never-Ending Story, Desert Dogs Edition, continues with Uncle Gary showing he's willing to fall on the South Mountain sword for his vanity pet project.
I'll check back in 2030 and see where things stand.
I'll check back in 2030 and see where things stand.
TheGreenTBer
i got the world up my ass
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Bettman doesn't get to decide... Any any time between changes of owners the BOG could pulled the plug... they DIDN'T
Even if this project is a no go the team is still not moving since that lease at ASU is 3 years with a 4 year option and there would be time to go to a plan B.
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