CXLI - UPDATE 1/27 - Coyotes working on deal to play at 5,000-seat arena at ASU

[TheLegend]

Hamilton still needs an arena and needs someone with the actually $$$. That price for Hamilton given 500m for Vegas 650m for Seattle as well as the arena cost would probably make it extremely difficult.

If OVG could spend $950 million plus renovating a 60 year old roof in Seattle anything is possible.

I’m not seeing anything happening but for the sake of discussion it’s something you can’t rule out.

 

[gstommylee]

If OVG could spend $950 million plus renovating a 60 year old roof in Seattle anything is possible.

I’m not seeing anything happening but for the sake of discussion it’s something you can’t rule out.

I was mostly pointing out the price has gone up since the Yotes bankruptcy case for Hamilton.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Hamilton still needs an arena and needs someone with the actually $$$. That price for Hamilton given 500m for Vegas 650m for Seattle as well as the arena cost would probably make it extremely difficult.

On the arena:
OVG enters Canada with Hamilton arena project - The Stadium Business

The Precinct Group’s proposed minimum C$50m (£29.4/€34.6m/$40.1m) renovation of the FirstOntario Centre includes a new exterior façade and video board, comprehensive transformation of the lower bowl, expanded concourse level, and a new flexible curtaining system for the upper bowl balcony.

The renovation also proposes to allow year-round access to street-level activations, which will include a sports lounge, an esports zone, and additional food and beverage offerings in collaboration with local hospitality partners.

In addition to the comprehensive arena transformation, the Precinct Group’s plan includes over C$12.5m in capital upgrades, expansion and aesthetic enhancements to the existing Hamilton Convention Centre and Concert Hall, as well as a one-time C$2m contribution to the Art Gallery of Hamilton.

The Precinct Group is to take over the operations and maintenance of all three entertainment venues on April 1, 2022 with the City retaining ownership of the lands and facilities. HUPEG has engaged arena architect BBB and lead local architect DPAI in bringing their vision to reality, with the appointment of OVG the latest part of their plans.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

So where was the arena plan and group back then?

The arena was better than what Ottawa had. The group included Tim Horton's owner Ron Joyce.

 

[aqib]

I think he's trying to make a go at it to be honest. He just doesn't have the political tact to get this done. He seems like a shrew, albeit over confident, business man.

I don't think you can take on a task like turning around a business that has this many challenges without being over confident

 

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Quebec will not make the NHL more money nor would it actually increase the canadain tv deal.

It very much will make the league more money.The addition of Quebec(via expansion or franchise move) adds 30 to 32 more games of national inventory to the current Rogers National TV deal.It would allow Rogers to create a fourth dedicated night of national programming via Sportsnet or City TV.You also have to take into consideration the potential ability of Rogers to sub-license this new package to another vendor(Amazon/DAZN/BELL).This fourth package gins up interest for the new contract in 2026 via more potential bidders.

 

[Legion34]

Hamilton would never happen. The arena is off the highway in a downtown area. Attached to worn down mall.

Niagara region shares with sabres fans.

IF they were going to do it it would probably be in the KW area. An hr from Hamilton (5ook) London (4ook) and the area has about 50ok.

it wouldn’t happen either way. I would bet on Houston. But hamilton would not be for the league IMO

 

[Digital Kid]

$750 million was the announced number in the 2022 Money & Power issue of the Hockey News that Graham Roustan said is the minimum franchise value that Gary Bettman would accept for any small market team in the NHL right now.

 

[TheLegend]

Off the rails we go again.

I get people who have wanted the Coyotes to move for years are getting ginned up by the recent events. But the hard fact right now is there are two Tempe council members who are on the fence because of the negative press the Coyotes have received (and rightfully so) over the past few months.

A lot can change between now and the end of February so let’s not get ahead of it.

 

[voyageur]

Hamilton still needs an arena and needs someone with the actually $$$. That price for Hamilton given 500m for Vegas 650m for Seattle as well as the arena cost would probably make it extremely difficult.

Well they now have Tim Lewiecke/OVG (familiar name?) as part of their arena revenation project, so I think there is something there. I still think the Buffalo problem lingers, that's a tough one to dance around, as Buffalo's attendance took a big hit with the border being closed. Thing is the arena renovation isn't set to start until later this year and end in 2024. But who knows what the NHL landscape looks like then.

Quebec is obviously the most active market in seeking a relocation. What the bottom end of the league looks like is hard to say. Adding Seattle and Vegas adds brand power to the league, which increases franchise values. What the bottom end of the league really is worth is another question. The Jets are now worth $575 million apparently, according to Forbes. I don't think anyone would pay that, for the market, although the arena holds value. If you are selling a franchise without an arena, that's a different measure.

 

[voyageur]

Off the rails we go again.

I get people who have wanted the Coyotes to move for years are getting ginned up by the recent events. But the hard fact right now is there are two Tempe council members who are on the fence because of the negative press the Coyotes have received (and rightfully so) over the past few months.

A lot can change between now and the end of February so let’s not get ahead of it.

You know I do feel for Coyotes fans. I remember 1995 and the Save the Jets rally, 1996 watching the very last game was an empty feeling. It took alot of alcohol.

The buzzards have been swooping for 12 years now, and every 3 years there is a new owner that will save the franchise, some more trustworthy than others, but it has to take its toll on a fan base.

 

[TheLegend]

You know I do feel for Coyotes fans. I remember 1995 and the Save the Jets rally, 1996 watching the very last game was an empty feeling. It took alot of alcohol.

The buzzards have been swooping for 12 years now, and every 3 years there is a new owner that will save the franchise, some more trustworthy than others, but it has to take its toll on a fan base.

Oh fully understand.

Irony in all this is the Jets and Nordiques fans lost their teams because ownerships couldn’t get a new arena built without massive public funds involved.

So the fans from all three have been subjected to the same thing. It’s been unfair to all of us. Jets fans finally got a team back and that’s great, but it cost the fans in Atlanta. Ideally I’d like to see a team back in Quebec City. Just not at the cost of fans in another market.

 

[Fatass]

Oh fully understand.

Irony in all this is the Jets and Nordiques fans lost their teams because ownerships couldn’t get a new arena built without massive public funds involved.

So the fans from all three have been subjected to the same thing. It’s been unfair to all of us. Jets fans finally got a team back and that’s great, but it cost the fans in Atlanta. Ideally I’d like to see a team back in Quebec City. Just not at the cost of fans in another market.

Now Meurello has the gambler license he’s got be keeping the club in Arizona, no? I thought that was the thing to keep the team there for sure. Big money for him, right?

 

[TheLegend]

Now Meurello has the gambler license he’s got be keeping the club in Arizona, no? I thought that was the thing to keep the team there for sure. Big money for him, right?

It’s only one thing.

Where it might be an advantage for him is he owns the sports book (that launches this week) outright rather than the other license holders in the state having to partner up with established companies.

 

[kaiser matias]

So where was the arena plan and group back then?

As noted Ron Joyce was the money behind it. However the Hamilton group didn't want to pay the $50 million expansion fee up front, as the NHL insisted, and backed out. Indeed, only Tampa and Ottawa agreed to do so, and ironically both ended up having to renegotiate that and had huge financial troubles (Ottawa didn't even have the money together at the time, but Firestone agreed anyways).

 

[Ernie]

This piece of Ernie's post:



is exactly the situation I am describing, without any numbers.....

Again the point is: The NHL, for marketing reasons, would much rather be in Houston. This is obvious. However, it's likely that Fertitta won't pay what someone (and it might not be Quebecor) will pay in Quebec. There is a grey area in the there of what the 2 places would be willing to pay, and that grey area would decide the issue....

IF it came to that.

Ah the part where I differ is that Fertitta will have to pay a much higher price than Quebec would have to pay. The NHL is not going to put a franchise in any market at a steep discount. If it comes to it they'll hold on and try to find someone who is open to building a competing stadium.

 

[MNNumbers]

Ah the part where I differ is that Fertitta will have to pay a much higher price than Quebec would have to pay. The NHL is not going to put a franchise in any market at a steep discount. If it comes to it they'll hold on and try to find someone who is open to building a competing stadium.

Build a competing stadium where? are you meaning in the Phoenix market?

 

[Ernie]

Off the rails we go again.

I get people who have wanted the Coyotes to move for years are getting ginned up by the recent events. But the hard fact right now is there are two Tempe council members who are on the fence because of the negative press the Coyotes have received (and rightfully so) over the past few months.

A lot can change between now and the end of February so let’s not get ahead of it.

Yeah maybe the one thing I agree on with you is that relocation speculation should be confined to another thread, and not just be about the Coyotes relocating necessarily.

 

[Ernie]

Build a competing stadium where? are you meaning in the Phoenix market?

Houston. They aren't going to send a team to that market for less than it's worth.

Fertitta thinks he has leverage because he know the NHL wants to be there and he controls the arena. But IMO the NHL would rather park a franchise in Quebec then get full value from Houston down the road.

 

[MNNumbers]

Houston. They aren't going to send a team to that market for less than it's worth.

Fertitta thinks he has leverage because he know the NHL wants to be there and he controls the stadium. But IMO the NHL would rather park a franchise in Quebec then get full value from Houston down the road.

Do you know Houston? I live here.

 

[Ernie]

Do you know Houston? I live here.

and? we are talking general principles..

And weren't you the one who was arguing that nobody could build a competing arena then backtracked when you dug further (props for that by the way)?

 

[MNNumbers]

and? we are talking general principles..

And weren't you the one who was arguing that nobody could build a competing arena then backtracked when you dug further (props for that by the way)?

Yes. That was me. It would have to be private if it's in Houston, or in Harris County. That is in the lease. No county or city money going to help with that.

If you go where the money is, then you have to go toward The Woodlands. There is lots of good money there (I'm around there a lot), so selling high value tickets would not be a problem. However, I don't know if there any governmental agency in Montgomery County that would have the money to support something like that. That means it has to be private there as well.

On the positive side of Montgomery County is that there is plenty of land nearby to The Woodlands, so a site would not be an issue. It's an intriguing idea.

I'm not sure. But you must be looking at an idea like:
Person A buys the team, and moves to Houston, and rents from Fertitta. Obviously that means heavy losses in the first few years.
Person A would likely not do this without a clear idea in Montgomery County. So, you are asking that someone does this:

1- Work behind the scenes to get some kind of an idea for a private arena in Montgomery County.
2- Once you do that, you start talking about buying the team.

That's an intriguing idea.

 

[gstommylee]

$750 million was the announced number in the 2022 Money & Power issue of the Hockey News that Graham Roustan said is the minimum franchise value that Gary Bettman would accept for any small market team in the NHL right now.

The coyotes aren't going for 750m no matter where the team ends up...

 

[Ernie]

Yes. That was me. It would have to be private if it's in Houston, or in Harris County. That is in the lease. No county or city money going to help with that.

If you go where the money is, then you have to go toward The Woodlands. There is lots of good money there (I'm around there a lot), so selling high value tickets would not be a problem. However, I don't know if there any governmental agency in Montgomery County that would have the money to support something like that. That means it has to be private there as well.

On the positive side of Montgomery County is that there is plenty of land nearby to The Woodlands, so a site would not be an issue. It's an intriguing idea.

I'm not sure. But you must be looking at an idea like:
Person A buys the team, and moves to Houston, and rents from Fertitta. Obviously that means heavy losses in the first few years.
Person A would likely not do this without a clear idea in Montgomery County. So, you are asking that someone does this:

1- Work behind the scenes to get some kind of an idea for a private arena in Montgomery County.
2- Once you do that, you start talking about buying the team.

That's an intriguing idea.

Well what scenario I'm envisioning is that the NHL tells Fertita to get stuffed, moves the Coyotes to Quebec, then opens an expansion one-off for a new team in the Houston area to be granted when a new arena is built.

Fertita would have no incentive to help someone else to build an arena, much like Glendale.

 

[MNNumbers]

Well what scenario I'm envisioning is that the NHL tells Fertita to get stuffed, moves the Coyotes to Quebec, then opens an expansion one-off for a new team in the Houston area to be granted when a new arena is built.

Fertita would have no incentive to help someone else to build an arena, much like Glendale.

We're way down the rabbit hole now, but why wouldn't the league already be looking for such an expansion one-off now? Maybe they are.