CXL - UPDATE 12/9 - Coyotes settle bills after unpaid taxes come to light

[OG6ix]

Quebec city truthers should focus on taking Ottawa in my opinion. If I'm the NHL I could care less about teams outside of Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. That right there is probably good enough to get you a great TV deal in Canada. Attendance can only get you so far.

 

[Devils 3silverones]

Not saying anything other than I’m looking at this from a lot of different angles.

Some business operates on the premise that you hold out as long as you can before paying things off. What’s been written about the Meruelo group to date paints the picture of that’s how he operates.

It’s a double edge sword though and can bite you in the ass if you poke the wrong entity long enough and that’s what we’re seeing now.

I also certainly don’t want you going anywhere.

Umderstandble. The posts can't be moved.
And when they are? Yikes.
The posts WEREN'T moved. .... Yet it still is an ouch.

 

[gstommylee]

I don't know... Why did Jets fans waych for two years in the east? Why did wimgs fans watch in the west? Why do blue jackets mattet in the veiwing area?... How are coyotes tv numbers? Sharks?... Potential is a guess. Actual is... Well... Actual

The old alignment was 15/15 in 6 divisions where columbus/detroit were in that conference. Detroit wanted to be in the eastern conference for years. its finally there same wise with the blue jackets. They aren't going to go back willingly.

Did the US wanted the thrashers to move no. Move to Winnipeg no. Guess what jets 2.0 happens cause there was no other US option for that franchise. Houston was stuck with Les Alexander, Seattle was a long shot due to lack of a NHL capable arena. Portland Oregon didn't seem to have interest at the time. The only option was winnipeg when the league went to 4 division 2 alignments it got winnipeg into central and i got columbus and detroit to the eastern conference, the league is way better $$$ (tv deal and ratings) by having the alignment the way it is now. All eastern time zone teams in the eastern conference.

Going to last years alignment but with Seattle as a pernament structure is a bad idea. Its bad for ratings bad for travel. Nevermind for vancouver and the alberta teams you replace their closest team in terms of travel distance with Seattle with quebec which will be the further travel distance for those 3 teams. Then there's ottawa Montreal and Toronto having a lot of close by NHL teams then having to replace those teams with winnipeg vancouver, and the Alberta teams. Then there's the 8 US teams that have to change divisions to get the 24 remaining US teams being split with 4 divisions down to 3 division.

Then you have Seattle will have to travel to minnestoa, colorado and st louis for division games. Outside of winnipeg being in the middle of canada thats 15 of the 32 teams that gets kinda screwed over just for the sake of quebec and 2 of those 15 are detroit and columbus.

Note for any NHL relocation to happen you need 17 BOG members to be in favor of it. Its going to be very very expensive for a quebec group to buy and relocate the coyotes to satisfy the 32 owners. And the NHL doesn't want to be seen publicly as a disorganized/divided league.

I said my piece and i am moving on.

 

[Devils 3silverones]

The old alignment was 15/15 in 6 divisions where columbus/detroit were in that conference. Detroit wanted to be in the eastern conference for years. its finally there same wise with the blue jackets. They aren't going to go back willingly.

Did the US wanted the thrashers to move no. Move to Winnipeg no. Guess what jets 2.0 happens cause there was no other US option for that franchise. Houston was stuck with Les Alexander, Seattle was a long shot due to lack of a NHL capable arena. Portland Oregon didn't seem to have interest at the time. The only option was winnipeg when the league went to 4 division 2 alignments it got winnipeg into central and i got columbus and detroit to the eastern conference, the league is way better $$$ (tv deal and ratings) by having the alignment the way it is now. All eastern time zone teams in the eastern conference.

Going to last years alignment but with Seattle as a pernament structure is a bad idea. Its bad for ratings bad for travel. Nevermind for vancouver and the alberta teams you replace their closest team in terms of travel distance with Seattle with quebec which will be the further travel distance for those 3 teams. Then there's ottawa Montreal and Toronto having a lot of close by NHL teams then having to replace those teams with winnipeg vancouver, and the Alberta teams. Then there's the 8 US teams that have to change divisions to get the 24 remaining US teams being split with 4 divisions down to 3 division.

Then you have Seattle will have to travel to minnestoa, colorado and st louis for division games. Outside of winnipeg being in the middle of canada thats 15 of the 32 teams that gets kinda screwed over just for the sake of quebec and 2 of those 15 are detroit and columbus.

Note for any NHL relocation to happen you need 17 BOG members to be in favor of it. Its going to be very very expensive for a quebec group to buy and relocate the coyotes to satisfy the 32 owners. And the NHL doesn't want to be seen publicly as a disorganized/divided league.

I said my piece and i am moving on.

The Jets are in Winnipeg because the BOG said so. TNSE proved their point. And did it. The small town, small market, small arena did it. And Does it. Alignment had nothing to do with it. Neither does Coyotes playing in central now does it....

 

[Devils 3silverones]

The old alignment was 15/15 in 6 divisions where columbus/detroit were in that conference. Detroit wanted to be in the eastern conference for years. its finally there same wise with the blue jackets. They aren't going to go back willingly.

Did the US wanted the thrashers to move no. Move to Winnipeg no. Guess what jets 2.0 happens cause there was no other US option for that franchise. Houston was stuck with Les Alexander, Seattle was a long shot due to lack of a NHL capable arena. Portland Oregon didn't seem to have interest at the time. The only option was winnipeg when the league went to 4 division 2 alignments it got winnipeg into central and i got columbus and detroit to the eastern conference, the league is way better $$$ (tv deal and ratings) by having the alignment the way it is now. All eastern time zone teams in the eastern conference.

Going to last years alignment but with Seattle as a pernament structure is a bad idea. Its bad for ratings bad for travel. Nevermind for vancouver and the alberta teams you replace their closest team in terms of travel distance with Seattle with quebec which will be the further travel distance for those 3 teams. Then there's ottawa Montreal and Toronto having a lot of close by NHL teams then having to replace those teams with winnipeg vancouver, and the Alberta teams. Then there's the 8 US teams that have to change divisions to get the 24 remaining US teams being split with 4 divisions down to 3 division.

Then you have Seattle will have to travel to minnestoa, colorado and st louis for division games. Outside of winnipeg being in the middle of canada thats 15 of the 32 teams that gets kinda screwed over just for the sake of quebec and 2 of those 15 are detroit and columbus.

Note for any NHL relocation to happen you need 17 BOG members to be in favor of it. Its going to be very very expensive for a quebec group to buy and relocate the coyotes to satisfy the 32 owners. And the NHL doesn't want to be seen publicly as a disorganized/divided league.

I said my piece and i am moving on.

Thank you for moving on.

 

[TheLegend]

We know you hate Quebec City, get over it.

“We” also know your hate for Arizona is long and documented, so?

If you can’t add anything to the discussion other than lobbing mud, then by all means back away from the keyboard.

 

[Devils 3silverones]

“We” also know your hate for Arizona is long and documented, so?

If you can’t add anything to the discussion other than lobbing mud, then by all means back away from the keyboard.

Enjoy the weekend all. Just enjoy stuff.

 

[TheLegend]

Enjoy the weekend all. Just enjoy stuff.

Same to you!

 

[TheLegend]

Clarkonomics weighs in…..

The Arizona Coyotes are a hot mess…still

 

[Ciao]

He publicly cut off the cord to Glendale years ago wasn't it? Didn't he outright say a couple of seasons back the Coyotes have no viable future in Glendale itself?

That's my recollection as well.

Both the team and the league have burned their bridge there.

 

[JimAnchower]

Clarkonomics weighs in…..

The Arizona Coyotes are a hot mess…still

I had heard that it would cost $40 to $50 million to get the building in shape for hockey but Morgan, in his article, cites a construction expert who said a more realistic number is in the $100 million range.

If $100 million is accurate, I think it would have made more sense to just give Glendale $20-30 million a year in rent for three-five years. Of course, this was six-nine months ago when there may have been a working relationship.

 

[MNNumbers]

I know the idea is to keep the relo talk to a minimum. So, without predicting that a relo is going to happen, I will offer this: If a relo becomes necessary, Houston would be preferred. However, in the event that Fertitta won't pay, then I think that Quebec is next on the list, in spite of the alignment issues.

Most likely the idea would be: Quebec would pay more than Houston, but there is some difference at which the league would go to Houston anyway.

Example: Fertitta offers 375M, Quebec at 550M BOG goes to QC. Fertitta offers 450M, Quebec 550....BOG goes to Houston.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Monterrey, Mexico has a better chance of getting a moved franchise than Quebec City.

Monterrey actually wouldn’t be a bad spot to host 10 or so home dates as a temporary home as the Coyotes wander the deserts. 14k capacity, 2 practice rinks, easy travel for central division teams.

 

[TheLegend]

If $100 million is accurate, I think it would have made more sense to just give Glendale $20-30 million a year in rent for three-five years. Of course, this was six-nine months ago when there may have been a working relationship.

Depends on how many bells and whistles you want. Ice system can be done for $6-7 million. How much structural work needs to be done to bring it up to code for 13,000 people?

And I will reiterate… the problem with Glendale isn’t the money. It’s the term.

 

[MNNumbers]

Depends on how many bells and whistles you want. Ice system can be done for $6-7 million. How much structural work needs to be done to bring it up to code for 13,000 people?

And I will reiterate… the problem with Glendale isn’t the money. It’s the term.

Well, in a world where the Coyotes had actually been acting like they wanted a good-faith relationship, I would say yes.
Of course.
Let's see. "We have a potential new arena, but it will take 3-5 years to build it. I Know. Let's offer Glendale a 3 year lease with team options for 2 more years."
This is obviously an offer which fits the Coyotes needs, and causes Glendale to kick themselves to the curb. That's not good faith. That's selfish.

But, on the other hand.....Glendale offers 18 years, because in a ideal world they would appreciate the team. Obviously, that LOCKS the team in, which the team doesn't want, because the team wants a hand out from some other place (Tempe is the flavor of the year).

So, sure, term is the problem. But the real problem with term is that each side needs something else from the relationship, and there isn't enough money playing in Glendale to satisfy everyone.

Now, all of that is in an ideal world. In a world where the Coyotes pay every bill late, include players' bonuses, that further damages the relationship with the landlord.

I hope Tempe is watching, because Meruelo would find some way to do the same thing to them. For me, if I were Tempe....no 200M. No tax districts. Nothing. Sure, you can use the land. But you are doing it entirely on your own dime. Entirely.

 

[TheLegend]

Well, in a world where the Coyotes had actually been acting like they wanted a good-faith relationship, I would say yes.
Of course.
Let's see. "We have a potential new arena, but it will take 3-5 years to build it. I Know. Let's offer Glendale a 3 year lease with team options for 2 more years."
This is obviously an offer which fits the Coyotes needs, and causes Glendale to kick themselves to the curb. That's not good faith. That's selfish.

But, on the other hand.....Glendale offers 18 years, because in a ideal world they would appreciate the team. Obviously, that LOCKS the team in, which the team doesn't want, because the team wants a hand out from some other place (Tempe is the flavor of the year).

So, sure, term is the problem. But the real problem with term is that each side needs something else from the relationship, and there isn't enough money playing in Glendale to satisfy everyone.

Now, all of that is in an ideal world. In a world where the Coyotes pay every bill late, include players' bonuses, that further damages the relationship with the landlord.

I hope Tempe is watching, because Meruelo would find some way to do the same thing to them. For me, if I were Tempe....no 200M. No tax districts. Nothing. Sure, you can use the land. But you are doing it entirely on your own dime. Entirely.

I don’t see how you can say Meruelo could run out on Tempe when it’s going to be his own arena (and entertainment district) he’s building with private funding.

Well… he could stiff the city for a parking garage. But only if he didn’t build it and he’ll actually need that to make it work.

 

[MNNumbers]

I don’t see how you can say Meruelo could run out on Tempe when it’s going to be his own arena (and entertainment district) he’s building with private funding.

Well… he could stiff the city for a parking garage. But only if he didn’t build it and he’ll actually need that to make it work.

It will start with the 200M. That will build half the arena. So, he gets it for 1/2 price. That gives him his sportsbook license.

Now, remember, a bunch of those unpaid bills from ASM are because there were things that the team should have paid for, but asked ASM to pay instead, and 'we'll pay you back.' So, what's to stop him from doing the same thing here? Nothing. It's how he does business. Once the arena is built, it will be "Hey, can you help us with this? With that?" etc. All using the threat of moving because then you will have an empty arena.

The development....If it gets built, will have taxes associated with it, right? Is he going to pay them? Doesn't look like it.

Guys like him find myriad ways of working people over. Even when you think there is no way they could do it.
You stay away from them.

 

[TheLegend]

It will start with the 200M. That will build half the arena. So, he gets it for 1/2 price. That gives him his sportsbook license.

Now, remember, a bunch of those unpaid bills from ASM are because there were things that the team should have paid for, but asked ASM to pay instead, and 'we'll pay you back.' So, what's to stop him from doing the same thing here? Nothing. It's how he does business. Once the arena is built, it will be "Hey, can you help us with this? With that?" etc. All using the threat of moving because then you will have an empty arena.

The development....If it gets built, will have taxes associated with it, right? Is he going to pay them? Doesn't look like it.

Guys like him find myriad ways of working people over. Even when you think there is no way they could do it.
You stay away from them.

Well as I said above if he stiffs the city on the parking garage which is part of phase one of the project, IIRC.

Remember the $200 million as it has been proposed was for land remediation ($70 million), a parking garage (Glendale priced one out for Westgate at $46 Million in 2015 before they nixed it) but we don’t know how big this one is yet.

$46 million Westgate parking garage planned in Glendale

So that leaves ~$80 million for infrastructure work to the entire district that cities commonly foot the bill for.

He’s certainly can’t build an arena on that much money.

Need to wait for that consultant report.

 

[gstommylee]

Well as I said above if he stiffs the city on the parking garage which is part of phase one of the project, IIRC.

Remember the $200 million as it has been proposed was for land remediation ($70 million), a parking garage (Glendale priced one out for Westgate at $46 Million in 2015 before they nixed it) but we don’t know how big this one is yet.

$46 million Westgate parking garage planned in Glendale

So that leaves ~$80 million for infrastructure work to the entire district that cities commonly foot the bill for.

He’s certainly can’t build an arena on that much money.

Need to wait for that consultant report.

Isn't the city getting a free police station that is privately funded too?

 

[mouser]

It will start with the 200M. That will build half the arena. So, he gets it for 1/2 price. That gives him his sportsbook license.

Now, remember, a bunch of those unpaid bills from ASM are because there were things that the team should have paid for, but asked ASM to pay instead, and 'we'll pay you back.' So, what's to stop him from doing the same thing here? Nothing. It's how he does business. Once the arena is built, it will be "Hey, can you help us with this? With that?" etc. All using the threat of moving because then you will have an empty arena.

The development....If it gets built, will have taxes associated with it, right? Is he going to pay them? Doesn't look like it.

Guys like him find myriad ways of working people over. Even when you think there is no way they could do it.
You stay away from them.

I replied to you on this a couple days ago without a response. The proposal as I understand it doesn’t hand over $200m to Meruelo up front to do anything he wants to with it. The bonds cover specific anticipated Tempe related costs like the land remediation, parking garage, and other public service infrastructure of which we should expect a chunk to occur in the 2nd and later phases of development following the arena.

Even if Tempe agrees to an exclusive negation period with Meruelo they can make counter proposals—such as wanting the team to own the parking garage.

The Tempe/ASU parking garage situation in this area is rather unique because it’s so close to the ASU football stadium. ASU has been converting former parking lots near the stadium over the past decade+ into a mix of private and university owned higher end developments. The private business developments north of the stadium with parking garages are required to make their garages available for football games.

There’s an interesting angle here where ASU could be very in favor of Tempe owning a sizable parking garage at the proposal site. It could allow ASU to repurpose even more of their current parking lots north of the stadium.

 

[MNNumbers]

I replied to you on this a couple days ago without a response. The proposal as I understand it doesn’t hand over $200m to Meruelo up front to do anything he wants to with it. The bonds cover specific anticipated Tempe related costs like the land remediation, parking garage, and other public service infrastructure of which we should expect a chunk to occur in the 2nd and later phases of development following the arena.

Even if Tempe agrees to an exclusive negation period with Meruelo they can make counter proposals—such as wanting the team to own the parking garage.

The Tempe/ASU parking garage situation in this area is rather unique because it’s so close to the ASU football stadium. ASU has been converting former parking lots near the stadium over the past decade+ into a mix of private and university owned higher end developments. The private business developments north of the stadium with parking garages are required to make their garages available for football games.

There’s an interesting angle here where ASU could be very in favor of Tempe owning a sizable parking garage at the proposal site. It could allow ASU to repurpose even more of their current parking lots north of the stadium.

I appreciate you and Legend pointing out that the 200M is not free money. And, if we were discussing a businessman who is more or less honest in the way that he does his business, that would be very helpful.

However, with Meruelo, regardless of when the 200M arrives, he has such a great way of figuring out how NOT to pay things that he is supposed to pay, that I wouldn't trust him with anything.

I know that might come off at 'quick to judgment', but I guess I would be willing to painted that way.

Glendale, for example, in asking for money up front for the rest of the year, is clearly learning the lesson "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Tempe should be forewarned. Even if there appears to be no way that you can get taken for a ride, guys like Meruelo live for the privilege.

 

[gstommylee]

I replied to you on this a couple days ago without a response. The proposal as I understand it doesn’t hand over $200m to Meruelo up front to do anything he wants to with it. The bonds cover specific anticipated Tempe related costs like the land remediation, parking garage, and other public service infrastructure of which we should expect a chunk to occur in the 2nd and later phases of development following the arena.

Even if Tempe agrees to an exclusive negation period with Meruelo they can make counter proposals—such as wanting the team to own the parking garage.

The Tempe/ASU parking garage situation in this area is rather unique because it’s so close to the ASU football stadium. ASU has been converting former parking lots near the stadium over the past decade+ into a mix of private and university owned higher end developments. The private business developments north of the stadium with parking garages are required to make their garages available for football games.

There’s an interesting angle here where ASU could be very in favor of Tempe owning a sizable parking garage at the proposal site. It could allow ASU to repurpose even more of their current parking lots north of the stadium.

And here's the thing any large big $$$ projects (like this one for example) rarely gets approved as is. Even Seattle's arena that was 100% privately funded had a few changes in the agreement when it was proposed and when it was approved... It wouldn't surprise me if tempe city council makes some amendments to it before they sign off on it if they were to sign off on it instead of rejecting it out right.

 

[TheLegend]

Isn't the city getting a free police station that is privately funded too?

Part of the proposal is for Meruelo to provide space for Tempe to use as a police/fire/emergency substation. That was something Tempe asked for at the last minute and delayed the RFP deadline a couple of weeks.

 

[JimAnchower]

There’s an interesting angle here where ASU could be very in favor of Tempe owning a sizable parking garage at the proposal site. It could allow ASU to repurpose even more of their current parking lots north of the stadium.

Would ASU also be interested in a new basketball arena at the site, with or without the Coyotes?

 

[wildthing202]

The obvious solution if Arizona goes to Quebec would be to move Tampa back to the Western Conference in a one for one swap to give Western teams more exposure to the Florida retiree market. Also swap Detroit for Carolina to give Florida a nearby division rival....