CXL - UPDATE 12/9 - Coyotes settle bills after unpaid taxes come to light

[cutchemist42]

The NHL will keep paying the bills until the season is over.

They'll be playing in the Toyota Center in Houston in October 2021. The arena situation is not optimal in downtown Houston due to demographics -- a new arena would need to built in northern Houston.

I think Houston and Austin will be bidding for a 2023/2024 opening start date.

I would prefer Austin over Houston personally.

 

[Ernie]

The second letter from Glendale to the Coyotes, the notice of cancellation of the business lease.

If I'm reading this right, the Coyotes are in default, have passed the last payment date, and Glendale has no obligation to allow them back in even if they come back into compliance.

 

[Ernie]

I would prefer Austin over Houston personally.

Perhaps we can put the speculation on where the team would relocate on hold for now, things are moving fast in Glendale and this thread should be focussed on that.

 

[aqib]

The people who hate FOS are just mad that sports is being criticized. Reality that he is correct, spending tax money on sports shows almost no return. Frankly his site only shows bias towards the act, and not any city or region, which is a good thing. More of these deals should be private. People dislike these statements because of feelings, which is no way to evaluate things.

Yeah don't tell us why we think the way we do. Some of us have degrees in finance and economics and we just find the analysis on FOS to be shortsighted. It simply doesn't reflect the realities that most cities not named New York or Los Angeles face.

 

[JimAnchower]

If I'm reading this right, the Coyotes are in default, have passed the last payment date, and Glendale has no obligation to allow them back in even if they come back into compliance.

Not until the 11th day after they receive the letter. It's never going to get to that point as either Coyotes pay it, and they say they will by today, or the league pays it.

 

[Ernie]

Not until the 11th day after they receive the letter. It's never going to get to that point as either Coyotes pay it, and they say they will by today, or the league pays it.

I haven't seen any indication that they can roll this back by paying up.

And the hearing would seem to be just a formality.

 

[93LEAFS]

I would prefer Austin over Houston personally.

Austin would be great, but they aren't an immediate option. Simply don't have a suitable arena and what's the closest option to them short term? San Antonio?

 

[MNNumbers]

I haven't seen any indication that they can roll this back by paying up.

And the hearing would seem to be just a formality.

Phelps' first letter says that the doors would be locked if all the fees and taxes are not paid by Dec 20.

That seems to indicate that the doors won't be locked if they pay up

 

[93LEAFS]

Yeah don't tell us why we think the way we do. Some of us have degrees in finance and economics and we just find the analysis on FOS to be shortsighted. It simply doesn't reflect the realities that most cities not named New York or Los Angeles face.

No government money should be spent on arenas. In only makes slight sense in trying to gentrify destroyed downtowns, and how much it helps that is unclear. Skydome was a waste of government tax dollars, and I'm glad Toronto will likely never see a publicly funded arena/stadium again.

 

[awfulwaffle]

I haven't seen any indication that they can roll this back by paying up.

And the hearing would seem to be just a formality.

You have to read both letters.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Agreed. Folks, let's focus on the current situations. We've rehashed possibilities of relocation and potential landing spots to the point it should be automatic around here.

If there's a major source that publishes material about a potential relocation, that can be the start of (yet another) separate thread.

So let's keep it to the following please:

Outstanding/unpaid debts (Present or previous)
License termination (outcome - either way)
Tempe

I know its going to be hard not to stray towards relocation talk but, as other posters have said, they'd like the thread open for the recent events. We already have 14,756,263 other threads regarding relocation over 13 years.

 

[awfulwaffle]

This has already been posted and mocked several times.

Welp, I'd say that Bettman has his scapegoat now for moving the team. And you know, fair enough!

I'll always be curious to see if the NHL could have worked in Phoenix. If the 2008 real estate meltdown hadn't have happened, the story could have been much different.

Edit:

To expand on this a little more, the Coyotes sucked before the 2008 lockout. 6 straight seasons of missed playoffs. But most of that was before the cap era where they had no chance of competing.

Even then, they were regularly drawing 15000 people. Even if you just adjust for 30% population growth in the Phoenix area since then, the Glendale arena would be bursting at the seams. And with a competitive team? I could see the Coyotes being a very successful business.

But the team has been cursed with a string of absolutely horrible owners. And the product on the ice has been horrific.

Maybe Bettman smartens up, forces Meruelo to sell, and goes back to Glendale with the offer of a long term lease.

This doesn't have to be a failure.

Ok? It's pretty simple, Glendale demands payment, Coyotes turn around and pay, what's there to mock about?

 

[aqib]

No government money should be spent on arenas. In only makes slight sense in trying to gentrify destroyed downtowns, and how much it helps that is unclear. Skydome was a waste of government tax dollars, and I'm glad Toronto will likely never see a publicly funded arena/stadium again.

Remember how empty that part of downtown was before Skydome was built? Toronto is a big enough city that it doesn't need to provide subsidies for sports, but outside of NY/LA/Chicago/Toronto and maybe one or 2 other cities if you don't contribute to the sports venues you don't have a team. Also, people complain about sports venues but they don't complain about arts subsidies? Why not? Those are also entertainment but people are cool with that. Same with bike lanes. They cost money, take up space, and are unusable for many days out of the year.

 

[Stephen]

I don’t really buy that. The league was fully prepared to move the team to Winnipeg at one point. The bigger issue Bettman /NHL had was with Balsille and the way he went about trying to get a team imo. Not so much saving the Phoenix market. The NHL ownership of the club was direct result of the Balsille shananigans. Since then they’ve had an owner that has been willing to bleed money. I don’t believe the NHL would keep the team there if the owner came to them and said I’m out.

Does the whole narrative of Balsille not playing by the Bettman rules stand up when we the decade long financial figures are tossed out like that though?

 

[Ernie]

Ok? It's pretty simple, Glendale demands payment, Coyotes turn around and pay, what's there to mock about?

The idea that this was just a human error and not intentional. You have to really have your head in the sand to believe that. If you think Meruelo is credible moving forward you are delusional.

 

[93LEAFS]

Remember how empty that part of downtown was before Skydome was built? Toronto is a big enough city that it doesn't need to provide subsidies for sports, but outside of NY/LA/Chicago/Toronto and maybe one or 2 other cities if you don't contribute to the sports venues you don't have a team. Also, people complain about sports venues but they don't complain about arts subsidies? Why not? Those are also entertainment but people are cool with that. Same with bike lanes. They cost money, take up space, and are unusable for many days out of the year.

Or maybe, if no cities contributed, they wouldn't be pitted against each other giving welfare to billionaires? And, Skydome isn't the reason that area developed. It developed due to rapid population growth. No one moved to Toronto for the Blue Jays. And, yeah, entry level arts subsidies make sense, same with entry level sports programs. Not giving billionaires a stadium because they've managed to pit cities against each other for government funds.

Do you think all Big 4 sports leagues would contract to 6 markets if governments stopped giving them subsidies to build stadiums?

 

[MNNumbers]

Remember how empty that part of downtown was before Skydome was built? Toronto is a big enough city that it doesn't need to provide subsidies for sports, but outside of NY/LA/Chicago/Toronto and maybe one or 2 other cities if you don't contribute to the sports venues you don't have a team. Also, people complain about sports venues but they don't complain about arts subsidies? Why not? Those are also entertainment but people are cool with that. Same with bike lanes. They cost money, take up space, and are unusable for many days out of the year.

I was thinking about this yesterday and the answer that comes to mind is:
Arts and parks don't have a private economic value to them. So, no one gets rich or even gets richer if they get built.

However, arenas are not so. Now, as a counterpoint, in Kansas City, there are no major sports teams. No team has a sweetheart deal, and the arena is used a lot. The calendar, it is reported, is very full. I don't think anyone would despise such an arrangement. The arena is being used for the common good.

But, in Glendale, for example, the city built the arena, and the Coyotes were getting all the cash out of it. I am speaking of the original lease here. There were a few non-sports events at the beginning, but the team also had management rights, and were making money on those events as well. This is what people object to. It's not the presence of the arena....it's the idea that the owners of the sports teams are making bank as a result of the building being there.

And, if an arena is going to be mainly used for the benefit of the team, the thinking goes, the team should build it themselves.

 

[Dolemite]

Update

 

[JimAnchower]

Update

A key quote.

 

[Mightygoose]

Somehow I get the feeling that the League has been (quietly) “assuring” payroll has been met this season. And while I’m dwelling on the subject, I get the sense that the city of Tempe will continue on regardless of the current optics and potential outcome regarding IceArizona.

Continue on as in restart RFP process?

After all of what's gone down and I don't think this chapter is done, if they still move forward with this plan them those politicians are dumber than anyone in Glendale in the past 20 years.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Continue on as in restart RFP process?

After all of what's gone down and I don't think this chapter is done, if they still move forward with this plan them those politicians are dumber than anyone in Glendale in the past 20 years.

Correct. I mean if a parcel of land that's essentially going to sit there unused is well... going to sit there unused, I'd be exploring options and requesting studies and consultation how to prepare that parcel for commercial sale. My apologies if that was interpreted the way you took it.

Then again, I've seen some really dumb decisions made by elected municipal officials so you're right. Nothing is off the table in regards to making dumb decisions.

 

[Mightygoose]

Correct. I mean if a parcel of land that's essentially going to sit there unused is well... going to sit there unused, I'd be exploring options and requesting studies and consultation how to prepare that parcel for commercial sale. My apologies if that was interpreted the way you took it.

Then again, I've seen some really dumb decisions made by elected municipal officials so you're right. Nothing is off the table in regards to making dumb decisions.

True and in all of the decisions in Glendale post arena opening, there was at least the rationale of fear of having an 'empty building', more likely any councilor who approved the building would most likely be a 'yes' vote so they won't admit their mistake.

Tempe doesn't have the pressure of 'saving the Coyotes' on their shoulder.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Yeah don't tell us why we think the way we do. Some of us have degrees in finance and economics and we just find the analysis on FOS to be shortsighted. It simply doesn't reflect the realities that most cities not named New York or Los Angeles face.

Shortsighted or realistic? How did the Cavs going to the finals help poverty in Cleveland? How did it improve city services? How does spending almost 400 million on the Guardians solve anything? I don't think the degrees apply here, since you admit you can't quantify this (no one really 100% can). You act like he's the only one saying this but multiple studies have been done saying the same thing. There's little to no return on spending money on sports. This is a fact that can be talked about in the context of the coyotes: all this money spent by Glendale...and its been a loss overall.

A larger question I would ask is why we need 30 teams in each league, but that's for another day.

 

[JimAnchower]

True and in all of the decisions in Glendale post arena opening, there was at least the rationale of fear of having an 'empty building', more likely any councilor who approved the building would most likely be a 'yes' vote so they won't admit their mistake.

Tempe doesn't have the pressure of 'saving the Coyotes' on their shoulder.

If Tempe is really desperate for constructing an arena, they could always try to partner with ASU on a new basketball arena.

 

[93LEAFS]

Shortsighted or realistic? How did the Cavs going to the finals help poverty in Cleveland? How did it improve city services? How does spending almost 400 million on the Guardians solve anything? I don't think the degrees apply here, since you admit you can't quantify this (no one really 100% can). You act like he's the only one saying this but multiple studies have been done saying the same thing. There's little to no return on spending money on sports. This is a fact that can be talked about in the context of the coyotes: all this money spent by Glendale...and its been a loss overall.

A larger question I would ask is why we need 30 teams in each league, but that's for another day.

Having been to Cleveland multiple times. It did seem to help rejuvenate downtown a bit, but the poverty just east of it is astonishing. But, the question really is, why aren't Billionaires paying for it, they've just managed to pit city against city. I don't think every city not paying for this stuff would dramatically reduce the number of pro-sports teams, and Cleveland got this the worst when their most beloved franchise was moved and they had to pay municipal money in a city that can't really afford it to get it back, despite being a profitable franchise.

The real question is? How financially hurt was Seattle by losing the Sonics? It seemed to rapidly grow without them.