Crosby's legacy in the Finals

[JRS91]

A lot of people are giving McDavid a hard time for his performance in Game 6 and Game 7.

It made me think of 2009 when people criticized Crosby for being pointless in Game 5, 6 and 7 (to be fair he was injured for half of game 7) against Detroit. I did a bit of deep diving to see how well he performed in Cup Finals. I also asked myself what if they lost in 2009, 2016 or 2017.

In 25 Finals games, he has 4 goals and 16 assists for 20 points. Half of those goals came in 2008. So in Cup Finals Crosby won, he has 2 goals and 12 assists over the span of 19 games. I'm not trying to tarnish Crosby's legacy, he's a winner and did things outside of points to help these teams win, but I think it's fair to say outside of 2017, he's had some underwhelming results offensively when it's mattered.

I also think it's fair to point out Crosby was only 21 when they won in 2009 and McDavid is currently 27 and in the prime of his career. Does this mean either player isn't clutch? Absolutely not, but it's interesting how a team can make a difference in how a guy is perceived. If Edmonton wins yesterday, nobody cares about McDavid's point totals. Imagine if the Penguins lost again in 2009 or if they lost in 2016, how would Crosby's legacy be remembered?

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[Buddy Bizarre]

Really depends on how the Finals are viewed. Are they weighed equally or do you give more credence to the Finals. That'll determine how this thread goes...

 

[DearDiary]

Draisaitl/RNH-McDavid-Hyman
vs
Kunitz/Guentzal/Hossa-Crosby-Guerin/Sheary

Crosby puts up much more points if he had McDavids linemates who could create scoring chances and space for him. Yes, I don't think Hossa was all that great on that line.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Draisaitl/RNH-McDavid-Hyman
vs
Kunitz/Guentzal/Hossa-Crosby-Guerin/Sheary

Crosby puts up much more points if he had McDavids linemates who could create scoring chances and space for him. Yes, I don't think Hossa was all that great on that line.

People remember Hossa the individual player (who was amazing).
What they don't recall is that Sid/Hossa really struggled with their chemistry. There was 1 point late in the year where I wondered if Hossa shouldn't be on Geno's line. They eventually figured it out, but it certainly wasn't gangbusters if they'd have an entire season.

 

[Turin]

Crosby in 2016 was playing with Sheary who was totally cooked by that point and Hornqvist who had a broken hand or fingers. Kinda like if McDavid played with Holloway and Hyman all playoffs, except Hyman is way better than Hornqvist offensively.

In 2009 he was playing with Kunitz and Guerin, and Guerin was totally cooked by that point against Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Rafalski. There’s a reason why his only goal was with Malkin that series lol.

In 2017 he has a better mix of options with Sheary, Guentzel and Rust even though it was always changing because Sheary got ineffective fast. Played against Ekholm-Subban most of the series.

2008 he was 20 years old vs Zetterberg and Lidstrom with both testicles working. He had Hossa, but the whole team was really overmatched. Especially since Babcock had Detroit playing puck possession hockey and Therrien still had the Pens playing whatever the opposite of puck possession is.

Scoring was also just way harder prior to 2018, just a fact. Just giving context. McDavid vs Florida was better obviously better offensively than what Sid managed to do, except in the last two games. Impressive to do some of that vs Barkov.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Crosby in 2016 was playing with Sheary who was totally cooked by that point and Hornqvist who had a broken hand or fingers. Kinda like if McDavid played with Holloway and Hyman all playoffs, except Hyman is way better than Hornqvist offensively.

In 2009 he was playing with Kunitz and Guerin, and Guerin was totally cooked by that point against Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Rafalski. There’s a reason why his only goal was with Malkin that series lol.

In 2017 he has a better mix of options with Sheary, Guentzel and Rust even though it was always changing because Sheary got ineffective fast. Played against Ekholm-Subban most of the series.

2008 he was 20 years old vs Zetterberg and Lidstrom with both testicles working. He had Hossa, but the whole team was really overmatched. Especially since Babcock had Detroit playing puck possession hockey and Therrien still had the Pens playing whatever the opposite of puck possession is.

Scoring was also just way harder prior to 2018, just a fact. Just giving context. McDavid vs Florida was better obviously better offensively than what Sid managed to do, except in the last two games. Impressive to do some of that vs Barkov.

Horny broke his fingers at the start of the conference finals in 2017.

He got moved to Crosby for the caps series/end of round 1 because Sid and the kids were getting hammered defensively (against the BJ’s) & he solved that issue before breaking his fingers against Ottawa and played against Nashville on our 4th line.

 

[Turin]

Horny broke his fingers at the start of the conference finals in 2017.

He got moved to Crosby for the caps series/end of round 1 because Sid and the kids were getting hammered defensively (against the BJ’s) & he solved that issue before breaking his fingers against Ottawa and played against Nashville on our 4th line.

Right. Alright I remember that, but I’m like 90% sure he was also injured by the time of the Sharks series. Maybe I’m misremembering, but he was pretty useless offensively vs Tampa and San Jose.

 

[Pancakes]

I think what you're forgetting is while the overall production might not be what we're accustomed to with Sid you do also have to look at the context of the moments he produced in the finals. And some of these were key moments that propelled the Pens on to series wins. For example:

2009: With the Pens down 2-1 in the series and needing to tie things up to have a chance, Jordan Staal scores a big SHG. Right after that Crosby assists on a Malkin goal and a Tyler Kennedy goal with great passes on both, and the Pens go on to win a pivotal game 4. From there, they rally to win the series.

2016: Crosby draws up a key faceoff play in OT and wins it exactly how he drew it up, and Sheary scores the OT winner. Crosby also sets up the GWG in game 6 off a beautiful feed to Letang. In the same game he makes a key block near the end of the game and dishes it to Hornqvist who buries it to seal the victory.

2017: This one I remember vividly because I bought tickets. Game 5, a series that is at 2-2 and which has seen the Pens get outplayed at times by Nashville. Sid comes out and on his very first shift he splits the Nashville d, hits the post, and draws a penalty. The Pens score on the ensuing powerplay (setup by Sid of course) and never look back. In the game Sid sets up goals by Schultz and Sheary. The Sheary feed he makes is a ridiculous backhand feed. For those who were present (or have good memories from watching on TV) Sid was totally dominant in this game. All over the puck. He could have had more points. He had one outrageous play where he made a one handed backhand pass to the slot that could have been a great assist. This was the pivotal game in the series and anyone who went to it or remembers watching it can attest that they knew Sid had that look in his eye and was not gonna let this opportunity slip away.


So yeah. Could the overall production have been better? Sure, but it's tremendously hard to produce in the finals as McDavid found out unfortunately the hard way. Sid put together some key performances in big games in each of the cup finals where the Pens won.

I omitted 2008 because tbh I don't remember that one as well and I'd have to re-watch the games to get a feel for how Sid performed there. I have some memories of it and I know he had a few moments but the memories aren't as vivid as the three Cup wins.

And then if we even look outside the finals at other moments we can also see Sid having a tendency to be clutch. His dominant performance in the World Cup of Hockey in the finals. The golden goal.

Dude just has a knack for winning. He's like a better Mark Messier or something lol. McDavid is undoubtedly more talented. Anyone who is disputing that at this point has rose colored glasses on. But Sid's a winner and imo has a better all around game/leadership capabilities than does McDavid.

 

[Turin]

Oh yea, I forgot in 2008 Babs stacked the top line against Sid and Hossa. So he had to go against Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom and Rafalski every shift that wasn't at home. Lol.

 

[Peat]

For those who were present (or have good memories from watching on TV) Sid was totally dominant in this game. All over the puck. He could have had more points.

Possibly independent of the point of the thread, but I don't think I've ever seen a player in any sport who has so routinely looked so dominant and yet had so relatively little to show for it on the score sheet.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Possibly independent of the point of the thread, but I don't think I've ever seen a player in any sport who has so routinely looked so dominant and yet had so relatively little to show for it on the score sheet.

I feel like this goes for both of the Big Two at least to some extent. But Crosby especially, yes.

 

[JRS91]

Oh yea, I forgot in 2008 Babs stacked the top line against Sid and Hossa. So he had to go against Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom and Rafalski every shift that wasn't at home. Lol.

That's fair.

Going against a top 3 defenseman all-time and one of the best two-way forwards of all-time isn't easy.

 

[Turin]

Possibly independent of the point of the thread, but I don't think I've ever seen a player in any sport who has so routinely looked so dominant and yet had so relatively little to show for it on the score sheet.

That's what happens when you go your entire prime playing with puck retrievers and not guys who can score without max effort haha. Ovechkin had Backstrom, McDavid had Draisaitl and now Hyman to a lesser extent, Crosby had Kunitz and then Guentzel as he exited his physical prime.

 

[Gurglesons]

Definitely a knock against Sid is what he did production wise throughout his SCFs..

That being said, G5 2017 is the most quintessential game I've seen from Sid and I was lucky to be in their in person.

That's what happens when you go your entire prime playing with puck retrievers and not guys who can score without max effort haha. Ovechkin had Backstrom, McDavid had Draisaitl and now Hyman to a lesser extent, Crosby had Kunitz and then Guentzel as he exited his physical prime.

Hyman is basically Chris Kunitz.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Crosby in 2016 was playing with Sheary who was totally cooked by that point and Hornqvist who had a broken hand or fingers. Kinda like if McDavid played with Holloway and Hyman all playoffs, except Hyman is way better than Hornqvist offensively.

In 2009 he was playing with Kunitz and Guerin, and Guerin was totally cooked by that point against Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Rafalski. There’s a reason why his only goal was with Malkin that series lol.

In 2017 he has a better mix of options with Sheary, Guentzel and Rust even though it was always changing because Sheary got ineffective fast. Played against Ekholm-Subban most of the series.

2008 he was 20 years old vs Zetterberg and Lidstrom with both testicles working. He had Hossa, but the whole team was really overmatched. Especially since Babcock had Detroit playing puck possession hockey and Therrien still had the Pens playing whatever the opposite of puck possession is.

Scoring was also just way harder prior to 2018, just a fact. Just giving context. McDavid vs Florida was better obviously better offensively than what Sid managed to do, except in the last two games. Impressive to do some of that vs Barkov.

I think people keep ignoring the linemate impact when looking at raw totals. If people honestly think that a player should get the same number of points regardless of whether he's flanked by Draisaitl/Hyman/RNH or Kunitz/Guerin/Sheary/Hornqvist, then they're not even bothering to look at all evidence available.

The literal proof is in the numbers. McDavid's production with Draisaitl on his line versus without highlights what having an elite linemate can do for a player's totals. Crosby has never had the benefit of an "elite" linemate in any of the 3 finals the Pens won.

Definitely a knock against Sid is what he did production wise throughout his SCFs..

That being said, G5 2017 is the most quintessential game I've seen from Sid and I was lucky to be in their in person.



Hyman is basically Chris Kunitz.

Hyman's a better goal scoring version of Kunitz. Considering Sid's more known for his playmaking/setting his linemates up, having a superior goal scorer trumps anything else. Example, reason why Sid's "best" finals (statistically) was versus Nashville when he played with Jake a lot.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Draisaitl/RNH-McDavid-Hyman
vs
Kunitz/Guentzal/Hossa-Crosby-Guerin/Sheary

Crosby puts up much more points if he had McDavids linemates who could create scoring chances and space for him. Yes, I don't think Hossa was all that great on that line.

Hyman with McDavid is about as close a comparison as you can get for Kunitz with Sid. No one hold a candle to Draisaitl, though Guentzel and Hossa were no slouches in their own rights.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hyman's a better goal scoring version of Kunitz. Considering Sid's more known for his playmaking/setting his linemates up, having a superior goal scorer trumps anything else. Example, reason why Sid's "best" finals (statistically) was versus Nashville when he played with Jake a lot.

Is he? Career high for Hyman was 21 prior to coming to Edmonton. Kunitz was 25.

I guess Hyman did 21 in 51 games.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Is he? Career high for Hyman was 21 prior to coming to Edmonton. Kunitz was 25.

I guess Hyman did 21 in 51 games.

Hyman's game is all around the net. He's Hornqvist, but with hands/finishing touch. Kunitz, despite his one 30 goal season, was never very good at shooting/burying the puck.

Hyman paced for 30 goals his last two years in Toronto, then went on to score like 40 his first in Edmonton and then had a career year this year. He's shown to be a better goal scorer than Kunitz over multiple seasons.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hyman's game is all around the net. He's Hornqvist, but with hands/finishing touch. Kunitz, despite his one 30 goal season, was never very good at shooting/burying the puck.

Hyman paced for 30 goals his last two years in Toronto, then went on to score like 40 his first in Edmonton and then had a career year this year. He's shown to be a better goal scorer than Kunitz over multiple seasons.

And Kunitz’s wasn’t?

Kunitz scored 35 in 13-14.

 

[Turin]

Hyman is identical to Hornqvist except he is miles better in open space on top of being an elite crease player. It's pretty shocking how good of a skater he became - people assumed the knee injury in Toronto would be more like to cook him but he just got faster.

 

[BrookswasHere44]

His legacy, at least in part, is having 3 cups. I couldn't possibly care any less about some jabroni that currently has zero.... In year 9 or whatever the hell it is

 

[SomeDude]

Average goals per game in the NHL playoffs Sid has made it to the finals: 5.36, 5.48, 5.25, 5.16 averages to 5.38
Average goals per game in the NHL playoffs this year: 6.07

 

[Jacob]

We’ve actually been pretty blessed to have not incompetent management. Better depth and depth scoring so Sid didn’t always have to go beast mode every night.

Sid never had to drag around a guy like Nurse making 12% of the cap. And we never had to pay $4 million in cap space to our 3rd string goalie.

Oilers will likely have more dead cap space next year than any other team. Draisaitl walks a year after that. It’s over for them. Their window is shut.

 

[BusinessGoose]

"over-rated! *clap clap clapclapclap*"


But naw, i mean, sid was never as fully explosive as other players, but he used to be mega clutch and could get some teams to gameplan around him so our team could win

 

[Turin]

"over-rated! *clap clap clapclapclap*"


But naw, i mean, sid was never as fully explosive as other players, but he used to be mega clutch and could get some teams to gameplan around him so our team could win

People forget how fast Crosby was before the high ankle sprain, and then again how fast he could be prior to the concussion/neck injury. Not McDavid fast but he was explosive.