OT: Coronavirus XXIII: Keep it On Topic

[CantHaveTkachev]

Sort of off topic, but I've brought this up before. Canada has one of the lowest vacation and days off in general out of all the developed countries. Somewhere around third last.

We should be seeking to increase vacation time for every other job, not reduce days off for positions which have somewhat decent time off. The same companies operating throughout Europe and Australia are providing weeks of additional vacation time.

sure I agree with that
hell, I'd rather work only 4 days a week but I doubt we will see that happen anytime soon

 

[Little Fury]

The strawman is strong here. Never said anything about what is allowed. I mentioned that a closed shop union that historically ratified and represented skilled positions usurped a lot of unskilled positions, and if we're being clear and consistent a lot of factions and people within those skilled unions howl at the moon whenever that happens as they feel their union shop and bargaining is reduced by having lesser positions included.

You didn't say that, you simply said unskilled workers should not have been in the union, which leaves plenty of room for interpretation.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

And where do you think the money to pay for privatized services comes from?

Also you seem to take it for granted that privatized services are more efficient and less expensive because they don't pay workers as well. That's an assumption without evidence.

then the workers can quit and go find something that pays better and the company will have to increase their wages to compete

 

[Raab]

Maybe Shandro should go to each of their homes and yell at them. That'll teach 'em!

Get well soon!

I don't know if Shandro has the time to go to everyone homes himself, although I think he may be able to contract it out.

Just bugging you a bit, hope your doing well.

 

[Little Fury]

Yep, and the ones that win do it by providing the best value to the customer. For example, I believe they want to privatize food services. Now ask anyone if hospital food is good food or not, and you'll most likely get its not very good. So the taxpayer is paying more for under average food. Imagine what could happen with real private business providing the food. You may actually see some nice salads on patient's plates.

What's the incentive for them to do that? It's not like patients can simply take their business to another hospital with better food.

 

[Little Fury]

then the workers can quit and go find something that pays better and the company will have to increase their wages to compete

Oh for sure man, it's not like people have bills to pay or rent to make.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Sort of off topic, but I've brought this up before. Canada has one of the lowest vacation and days off in general out of all the developed countries. Somewhere around third last.

We should be seeking to increase vacation time for every other job, not reduce days off for positions which have somewhat decent time off. The same companies operating throughout Europe and Australia are providing weeks of additional vacation time.

Its way beyond the topic of this thread but Canada, with the gross efficiencies of spread out population, massive transport costs, massive travel costs, massive heating, utility costs, of course were never going to competitively match the possibilities that could occur in population packed, and dense Europe where travel and transportation costs of goods and services is much less per dollar goods sold produced. Australia doesn't have the heating and utility costs incumbent in Canada at this latitude. Canada is already inefficient by its geographic expanse and latitude . This seems poorly, or not at all understood in present day.

The Hudsons bay Company had this firm reckoning from the start of trade.

 

[yukoner88]

And where do you think the money to pay for privatized services comes from?

Also you seem to take it for granted that privatized services are more efficient and less expensive because they don't pay workers as well. That's an assumption without evidence.

The money private companies pay their employees doesn't go through bloated chambers of government. It goes from their revenues to the employees and taxes on top of the wages. It's a much more efficient flow of funds and much cheaper there for, private companies can offer the same services at cheaper rates and offer competitive wages to their workers.

 

[Drivesaitl]

You didn't say that, you simply said unskilled workers should not have been in the union, which leaves plenty of room for interpretation.

Correct. I didn't state what you assumed. Thank you for corroborating that.

 

[Little Fury]

The money private companies pay their employees doesn't go through bloated chambers of government. It goes from their revenues to the employees and taxes on top of the wages. It's a much more efficient flow of funds and much cheaper there for, private companies can offer the same services at cheaper rates and offer competitive wages to their workers.

Where does the money come from in this case?

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Oh for sure man, it's not like people have bills to pay or rent to make.

companies are paying people wages in which people are willing to work for...if no one wants to work for them at that wages, they'll need to change it
and if the job is too low-paying where you can't make ends meet, move on to a job that does

 

[Little Fury]

So you’re saying is that you don’t want our tax dollars used in the most efficient way possible?

I don't think "efficiency" should be the primary concern with spending on public goods, no.

 

[Fourier]

Providing the best and most efficient service is the way to maximize profits... Apple’s service Centers in their stores are notoriously easy to deal with, they’re extremely lenient on warranty claims, and usually replace a device for you rather than trying to repair it. That is a high quality and efficient service but does not maximize profits in the short term. With that said, it builds brand loyalty and will maximize profits in the long term.

Not all companies operate like Apple. In the consumer electronics world if you don't treat your customers well they will simply move on to a competitor. In the health care world this is certainly not always the case. My parents were both legally blind but they were totally self sufficient living in their own home and not using any additional services until last few years. My mom needed some help for the last couple of years. Weekly visits to tend with a chronic wound and biweekly monitoring of her blood. When Home Care went private in Alberta the quality of service went from very good to horrid almost over night. Had we not been able to arrange for other alternatives it would have been enough to force them out of their home. The additional cost to the tax payer had that happened would have been far greater than the costs of the help they had before privatization.

PSW's can play a huge role in keeping seniors in their own homes. But they also need to be trained, paid and treated as professionals. So far there is little evidence that the private sector wants to make this happen. A similar thing happens in seniors care homes. Often the private homes are worse than non-profit or public facilities. Again, its not the case that if you don't like the service you can simply move on to a competitor. These places literally have a captive customer base.

 

[yukoner88]

Where does the money come from in this case?

Their customer base

 

[Little Fury]

companies are paying people wages in which people are willing to work for...if no one wants to work for them at that wages, they'll need to change it
and if the job is too low-paying where you can't make ends meet, move on to a job that does

Sorry but the real world doesn't function like an Econ 101 textbook.

 

[Little Fury]

Their customer base

No, it comes from the government/taxpayer.

 

[Fourier]

companies are paying people wages in which people are willing to work for...if no one wants to work for them at that wages, they'll need to change it
and if the job is too low-paying where you can't make ends meet, move on to a job that does

Do you really believe that it is as simple as this??

 

[Little Fury]

Not all companies operate like Apple. In the consumer electronics world if you don't treat your customers well they will simply move on to a competitor. In the health care world this is certainly not always the case. My parents were both legally blind but they were totally self sufficient living in their own home and not using any additional services until last few years. My mom needed some help for the last couple of years. Weekly visits to tend with a chronic wound and biweekly monitoring of her blood. When Home Care went private in Alberta the quality of service went from very good to horrid almost over night. Had we not been able to arrange for other alternatives it would have been enough to force them out of their home. The additional cost to the tax payer had that happened would have been far greater than the costs of the help they had before privatization.

PSW's can play a huge role in keeping seniors in their own homes. But they also need to be trained, paid and treated as professionals. So far there is little evidence that the private sector wants to make this happen. A similar thing happens in seniors care homes. Often the private homes are worse than non-profit or public facilities. Again, its not the case that if you don't like the service you can simply move on to a competitor. These places literally have a captive customer base.

Thank you. People don't seem to grasp the distinction between a business operating in the open market and one that is contracted by government to provide frontline public services, which amounts to state sanctioned monopolies.

 

[yukoner88]

No, it comes from the government/taxpayer.

If it's a government contract youre referring to, it's cheaper for the government to pay the contract rather then hiring their own public workforce, that's why governments do this. It costs less to pay a company a contract to look after a service because the private companies are much more effective at allocating the funds to the resources needed to get the job done.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Do you really believe that it is as simple as this??

no, but saying "their wages are too low" isn't true

if people are willing to work for that company's wage, then it isn't too low

 

[yukoner88]

Sorry but the real world doesn't function like an Econ 101 textbook.

The private sector doesnt operate like the public sector

 

[Nostradumbass]

And how pray do you determine that?

What do equivalent workers in other industries get paid for those job qualifications/responsibilities? If it’s something similar, keep them as-is. If it’s significantly less, then it looks like we’re overpaying.

 

[Raab]

So?

The UCP is also the largest political party in Canada. The grassroots want privatized services because every other G7 nation has privatized healthcare and get better results. Personally I want the Swiss model, or Singapore model, but would be fine with the German or French model. The big thing is we're not efficient enough resulting in long wait times and reduced patient care.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Not all companies operate like Apple. In the consumer electronics world if you don't treat your customers well they will simply move on to a competitor. In the health care world this is certainly not always the case. My parents were both legally blind but they were totally self sufficient living in their own home and not using any additional services until last few years. My mom needed some help for the last couple of years. Weekly visits to tend with a chronic wound and biweekly monitoring of her blood. When Home Care went private in Alberta the quality of service went from very good to horrid almost over night. Had we not been able to arrange for other alternatives it would have been enough to force them out of their home. The additional cost to the tax payer had that happened would have been far greater than the costs of the help they had before privatization.

PSW's can play a huge role in keeping seniors in their own homes. But they also need to be trained, paid and treated as professionals. So far there is little evidence that the private sector wants to make this happen. A similar thing happens in seniors care homes. Often the private homes are worse than non-profit or public facilities. Again, its not the case that if you don't like the service you can simply move on to a competitor. These places literally have a captive customer base.

Just as another side to this anecdotal report My mother spend many years in a convalescent home, my dad had to pay high monthly costs to have her stay there. He went every day to be with my mom, not only served my mother but served most of the patients in the unit, who would otherwise be waiting an hour for their food that would be by then cold. The Union paid porter was busy bs with any nurse they could find while the food was waiting to be set out to the patients. On the rare day my father was ill, there were lots of stories about people not even receiving their meal. At all. But rarely prompt or efficient, or even friendly or cordial service by the actual porters.

The serviced provided by my father, sometimes myself, and other unofficial standby volunteers, (friends, relatives of anybody on the unit) was better and seemingly necessary. The unionized porters did not provide better service than anybody else, even volunteers, could provide.

 

[Nostradumbass]

no, but saying "their wages are too low" isn't true

if people are willing to work for that company's wage, then it isn't too low

I think that’s a dangerous assumption, and why I was in favour of the minimum wage increase. Some people will take any job they can to at least try to put some food on the table. But working for $10 vs $15 might not add much to the cost of a product (I think it was under $0.50 for a burger at McDs), but a 50% increase in pay will lead to more cash being circulated through the economy since those at the lower end of pay scales are more likely to spend each additional dollar they make rather than save.