OT: Coronavirus (COVID-19): Part VI (NO RIOT/PROTEST DISCUSSION)

[JimmyG89]

Gun to my head, and I'm not black, I'd rather be on the streets everyday fighting for my rights as a human and risk infection rather than staying indoors and not being able to effectively fight for my rights but staying safe from infection.

That's perfectly fine, but we were told for months on end to change our habits and do things to save as many lives as possible. There is no consistency in allowing people to mass gather on streets to protest and telling people the weekend before they cannot go to the beach.

We also told people that have had their business die with no chance of coming back that it is for the better of the people then they see that protesting is okay as long as you are wearing a mask.

NYC had a memorial service for someone that wasn't even from here with massive amounts of people. Jewish communities did the same thing and the mayor calls their specific community out for it. The same people are talking out of both sides of their mouth. It's insanity and it makes it seems as though some reasons for gathering in large groups is prioritized when the right is the same for everyone. It's either no large gatherings based on CDC recommendations or they can f*** off.

 

[Tawnos]

No one is actually saying it’s okay for the protestors to be out there, strictly from the point of view of the pandemic. At the same time, no one ever said that there were absolutely no activities that were more important than stopping the pandemic. People *did* say that the economy isn’t more important than stopping the pandemic and what people are saying now is that this activity is.

Economic activity and fighting for equality aren’t the same thing. Different values apply. It’s not really inconsistent to view their relationship with the pandemic differently. It’s an expression of values, right or wrong. Viewing those relationships as the same is also an expression of values, right or wrong.

 

[Leonardo87]

Well, at least that Asteroid is going to miss Earth. Probably said, I ain’t F’ing landing there. Lol.

 

[Irishguy42]

Well, at least that Asteroid is going to miss Earth. Probably said, I ain’t F’ing landing there. Lol.

Unfortunate

 

[JimmyG89]

No one is actually saying it’s okay for the protestors to be out there, strictly from the point of view of the pandemic. At the same time, no one ever said that there were absolutely no activities that were more important than stopping the pandemic. People *did* say that the economy isn’t more important than stopping the pandemic and what people are saying now is that this activity is.

Economic activity and fighting for equality aren’t the same thing. Different values apply. It’s not really inconsistent to view their relationship with the pandemic differently. It’s an expression of values, right or wrong. Viewing those relationships as the same is also an expression of values, right or wrong.

You're right, it isn't the same. The virus does not care. You can be as virtuous in your actions as possible, but the virus doesn't know you are standing up to racism or standing up to open your business.

I want intellectual honesty from people in elected positions. The point is that the people protesting against lockdowns were "selfish" and were going to kill people. How is it no different if people march on streets?

I was told 1000s of times of the 1918 Spanish Flu where Philly held a WW1 parade and people died because of it. Is this not the same? The people that are there are going to die and they will kill their families. This is the message that has been repeated over and over again. I don't hear anyone talking about it. If you're going to allow these people to protest in large groups like this, the same cities should not be stopping someone from opening their business.

 

[egelband]

Well, at least that Asteroid is going to miss Earth. Probably said, I ain’t F’ing landing there. Lol.

Haha. Certainly a reasonable comet.

 

[Tawnos]

You're right, it isn't the same. The virus does not care. You can be as virtuous in your actions as possible, but the virus doesn't know you are standing up to racism or standing up to open your business.

I want intellectual honesty from people in elected positions. The point is that the people protesting against lockdowns were "selfish" and were going to kill people. How is it no different if people march on streets?

I was told 1000s of times of the 1918 Spanish Flu where Philly held a WW1 parade and people died because of it. Is this not the same? The people that are there are going to die and they will kill their families. This is the message that has been repeated over and over again. I don't hear anyone talking about it. If you're going to allow these people to protest in large groups like this, the same cities should not be stopping someone from opening their business.

Again, there’s a difference between people wanting the economy to reopen and people wanting basic equality. In the same way, there’s a difference between a parade, which is not a vital activity, and this. Different standards will apply. People marching in the streets over the issue of equality might in fact kill people. No one is saying otherwise and plenty of people have made that point. The difference is that, even if people die, this cause is worth the risk. The economy is not worth the same risk. There’s no intellectual dishonesty there.

Beyond that, many medical professionals consider this fight to be one just as related to public health as stopping the pandemic, and some have even come out and said so. Systemic racism is a public health crisis of its own. If you want an example of that, there’s this: Over 1,000 health professionals sign a letter saying, Don't shut down protests using coronavirus concerns as an excuse - CNN

Dr. Abby Hussein, an infectious disease fellow at the University of Washington, noted that for black Americans this was truly a "life or death matter" and that protestors weren't taking actions lightly.

"While everyone is concerned about the risk of Covid, there are risks with just being black in this country that almost outweigh that sometimes. And the sad part is the group that is protesting for their rights are the same people who are already disproportionately affected by the disease," Hussein told CNN. "It's something they're doing because if they don't fight for this now, they may never be able to fight for it in the future, because while Covid is right now, and we don't know how long it's going to last, white supremacy and oppression has been a long way longer, and we can guarantee that it's going to continue if people don't do anything about it now."

Another quote in the article also specifically says that permitting this shouldn’t be confused with permitting stay at home order protests. And that more or less sums up why these protests are ok, while opening businesses or protesting the stay at home orders is not.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Again, there’s a difference between people wanting the economy to reopen and people wanting basic equality. In the same way, there’s a difference between a parade, which is not a vital activity, and this. Different standards will apply. People marching in the streets over the issue of equality might in fact kill people. No one is saying otherwise and plenty of people have made that point. The difference is that, even if people die, this cause is worth the risk. The economy is not worth the same risk. There’s no intellectual dishonesty there.

Beyond that, many medical professionals consider this fight to be one just as related to public health as stopping the pandemic, and some have even come out and said so. Systemic racism is a public health crisis of its own. If you want an example of that, there’s this: Over 1,000 health professionals sign a letter saying, Don't shut down protests using coronavirus concerns as an excuse - CNN



Another quote in the article also specifically says that permitting this shouldn’t be confused with permitting stay at home order protests. And that more or less sums up why these protests are ok, while opening businesses or protesting the stay at home orders is not.

Over 20,000 black people died from Covid already. Making Covid into a frivolous issue due to politics is absurd. And spoiler alert, these protests won't end racism. The absolutely best that will come out of it, and I'm hoping it does is that there will be an overhaul of policing in this country. 48 unarmed black people died a year from 2013-2019, that's 48 too many, but keeping it in perspective. Covid is a FAR a bigger threat to the black community than poor/racist policing. I've mentioned already that's over 400 years worth of murders of unarmed black people to get to 3 months of Covid. But Covid is not sexy. This is absolutely absurd. Also, health professionals are virtue signaling and overstepping their bounds. Conflating politics and science is extremely dangerous and will lead to more and more science denial.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I feel gaslighted, literally, nothing mattered in this world but Covid until the George Floyd murder. Now Covid is irrelevant. What utter bullshit.

 

[Tawnos]

Over 20,000 black people died from Covid already. Making Covid into a frivolous issue due to politics is absurd. And spoiler alert, these protests won't end racism. The absolutely best that will come out of it, and I'm hoping it does is that there will be an overhaul of policing in this country. 48 unarmed black people died a year from 2013-2019, that's 48 too many, but keeping it in perspective. Covid is a FAR a bigger threat to the black community than poor/racist policing. I've mentioned already that's over 400 years worth of murders of unarmed black people to get to 3 months of Covid. But Covid is not sexy. This is absolutely absurd. Also, health professionals are virtue signaling and overstepping their bounds. Conflating politics and science is extremely dangerous and will lead to more and more science denial.

No one has ever said COVID is now a frivolous issue. That’s a big misunderstanding of what people, including me, are saying. Just because one thing is more important than the other doesn’t mean the second thing becomes unimportant. It doesn’t even make it less important than it was before. And if you think that the disproportionate rate at which the disease has affected the black population isn’t a driving factor in the scale and intensity of these protests, I don’t know what to tell you.

I don’t think anyone believes that racism will be ended by this protests. You aren’t going to get people who view other races as being inferior to think different. But that best case scenario of reforming policing policy is a major step in ending *systemic* racism, which is what this is really all about. You’re absolutely wrong that COVID is a bigger threat to black population than systemic racism, because systemic racism is the only reason why it’s a bigger threat than to the rest of the population in the first place. Far, far more people than 20,000 people have died as a result of the public health crisis that systemic racism is. And at least some of those 20,000 are dead because of that public health crisis as much as the pandemic itself.

Focusing on the numbers of unarmed black men killed by police misses the point entirely. Those killings are the result, a symptom, of the problem rather than the problem itself. Police brutality towards the black population isn’t a separate issue than the outsized effect of the pandemic on the black population. They’re two aspects of the same issue.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I feel gaslighted, literally, nothing mattered in this world but Covid until the George Floyd murder. Now Covid is irrelevant. What utter bullshit.

It's not irrelevant, but you can't silence people when this bullshit keeps on happening and in reality, is being enabled by people in positions of power.

I'm sorry, but pointing at unarmed deaths to black people is a realllly ignorant take. That isn't the only issue. How many of them have been beaten for no reason? Incarcerated for petty charges? Pulled over on the road and/or frisked just because? Systemic racism that exists in law enforcement (no, not all cops are racist but too many are) is what is being fought against.

I mean, this is really a completely different conversation that doesn't belong in this thread, but I thought I'd throw that out there. Your "best case" scenario for these protests is actually a pretty massive win. Your anger shouldn't be directed at the people who are protesting during the pandemic, but towards those who made the protests necessary in the first place.

 

[McRanger]

Fake outrage is always hysterical but fake outrage from the iTs JuSt ThE fLu crowd, the same people who still support the politicians who thought they were such imbeciles that they could pretend the virus was a hoax, is something truly special.

I Just hope the super volcano eruption of 2020 waits until I stop laughing to consume the world.

 

[Tawnos]

Fake outrage is always hysterical but fake outrage from the iTs JuSt ThE fLu crowd, the same people who still support the politicians who thought they were such imbeciles that they could pretend the virus was a hoax, is something truly special.

I Just hope the super volcano eruption of 2020 waits until I stop laughing to consume the world.

I know you’re making a bit of a joke there, but on a serious level I hope you’re not talking about Yellowstone, because Yellowstone is, at minimum, 1000 years from erupting. The magma chamber beneath it isn’t molten enough and it’ll take a pretty long time to get there.

At least, according to the geologists whose job it is to study these things and not the pop scientists whose job it is to sensationalize. Given that we’ve never seen a super volcano erupt, I suppose they could be wrong.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

No one has ever said COVID is now a frivolous issue. That’s a big misunderstanding of what people, including me, are saying. Just because one thing is more important than the other doesn’t mean the second thing becomes unimportant. It doesn’t even make it less important than it was before. And if you think that the disproportionate rate at which the disease has affected the black population isn’t a driving factor in the scale and intensity of these protests, I don’t know what to tell you.

I don’t think anyone believes that racism will be ended by this protests. You aren’t going to get people who view other races as being inferior to think different. But that best case scenario of reforming policing policy is a major step in ending *systemic* racism, which is what this is really all about. You’re absolutely wrong that COVID is a bigger threat to black population than systemic racism, because systemic racism is the only reason why it’s a bigger threat than to the rest of the population in the first place. Far, far more people than 20,000 people have died as a result of the public health crisis that systemic racism is. And at least some of those 20,000 are dead because of that public health crisis as much as the pandemic itself.

Focusing on the numbers of unarmed black men killed by police misses the point entirely. Those killings are the result, a symptom, of the problem rather than the problem itself. Police brutality towards the black population isn’t a separate issue than the outsized effect of the pandemic on the black population. They’re two aspects of the same issue.

I guess we'll end up disagreeing on how much these protests will affect systemic racism. If you somehow could look into the future and tell me that these cases will end systemic racism, I will say they'll be worth it. Truth is, we had Rodney King riots in 1992 and that hasn't done shit. This may sound callous but I'm not even close to convinced that these protests will make any significant dent in policing, and far less convinced it'll make a significant dent in systemic racism.

BTW, the police training and oversight in this country is abhorrent. While the victims are disproportionately black, they're not even close to only black. This is an issue that goes beyond systemic racism.

 

[Tawnos]

I guess we'll end up disagreeing on how much these protests will affect systemic racism. If you somehow could look into the future and tell me that these cases will end systemic racism, I will say they'll be worth it. Truth is, we had Rodney King riots in 1992 and that hasn't done shit. This may sound callous but I'm not even close to convinced that these protests will make any significant dent in policing, and far less convinced it'll make a significant dent in systemic racism.

BTW, the police training and oversight in this country is abhorrent. While the victims are disproportionately black, they're not even close to only black. This is an issue that goes beyond systemic racism.

I don’t understand. Even if you view it as unlikely, how can they make a dent in policing but not systemic racism?

And I agree, the police training and oversight (not to mention the militarization of) is abhorrent. In some cases, people require more training to drive a car than police get in the proper use of force.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

It's not irrelevant, but you can't silence people when this bullshit keeps on happening and in reality, is being enabled by people in positions of power.

I'm sorry, but pointing at unarmed deaths to black people is a realllly ignorant take. That isn't the only issue. How many of them have been beaten for no reason? Incarcerated for petty charges? Pulled over on the road and/or frisked just because? Systemic racism that exists in law enforcement (no, not all cops are racist but too many are) is what is being fought against.

I mean, this is really a completely different conversation that doesn't belong in this thread, but I thought I'd throw that out there. Your "best case" scenario for these protests is actually a pretty massive win. Your anger shouldn't be directed at the people who are protesting during the pandemic, but towards those who made the protests necessary in the first place.

My anger is towards both. And my best-case scenario is not a system overhaul. I'll be glad if there are any kind of changes. I don't think that the kind of changes that will be accomplished will counterbalance that kind of deaths we saw from Covid. Even if black people were killed at the same rate as white people it would be a HUGE number anyway, btw. So it's kind of a moot point that this is part of the protests.

BTW, I'm sorry if you guys don't think the economy is important enough for people to care about but your political goals are not the one and only thing of any real significance. As far as I know, the black community is also part of the economy, too.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I don’t understand. Even if you view it as unlikely, how can they make a dent in policing but not systemic racism?

And I agree, the police training and oversight (not to mention the militarization of) is abhorrent. In some cases, people require more training to drive a car than police get in the proper use of force.

Because I think it's a far greater issue than police brutality.

 

[Tawnos]

Yeah, no one is saying the economy isn’t important enough to care about.

 

[Tawnos]

Because I think it's a far greater issue than police brutality.

Police brutality against the black population is one aspect of it, though. So if you make a dent in that, you make a dent in both.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I will defend everyone's right to peacefully protest literally 99% of the time, it's the highest form of patriotism. But when you have a pandemic that affects everyone like nothing we've seen in 100 years I don't think I can agree with it. I know that racism is the #1 cause in left-wing circles and overrides everything, no matter what. I try to look at the world in more nuanced terms.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Police brutality against the black population is one aspect of it, though. So if you make a dent in that, you make a dent in both.

If the dent in police brutality is say 20%, but police brutality is 5% of the overall, that's only 1% of the entire picture.

Bottom line is if I thought these protests made a significant difference in racial injustice I'd support them. If there were no Covid, I'd support the protests 100% even if they made 0 impact.

 

[Tawnos]

If the dent in police brutality is say 20%, but police brutality is 5% of the overall, that's only 1% of the entire picture.

Bottom line is if I thought these protests made a significant difference in racial injustice I'd support them. If there were no Covid, I'd support the protests 100% even if they made 0 impact.

who is virtue signaling now?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

who is virtue signaling now?

I'm not sure how I'm virtue signaling here.

 

[Tawnos]

I'm not sure how I'm virtue signaling here.

I don’t actually believe that you are, but if what medical professionals were saying about the protests is virtue signaling than so is “I’d support the protests if there wasn’t a pandemic on”

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I don’t actually believe that you are, but if what medical professionals were saying about the protests is virtue signaling than so is “I’d support the protests if there wasn’t a pandemic on”

Eh, not really. First of all, I support the right of all Americans to protest what they see fit, it's protected by our constitution, and I believe crucial towards freedom. Freedom doesn't mean standing for a song, it means standing up an oppressive government. Second, I believe in THIS specific cause. Third, my only problem is there's a time and place, and this isn't it. But I'm glad people are wearing masks at least.