OT: Coronavirus (COVID-19): Part V

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

It's a mood

Goddamn it, the mask is worthless if it doesn't cover the mouth AND nose. Sigh.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

And away we go: Georgia to reopen some businesses as early as Friday

I've got no problem with reopening businesses where you can be safe (which truthfully requires widespread testing to determine, but that's another conversation). Beaches are no different than parks – if you can practice social distancing, no problem.

But movie theaters?

HAIR SALONS?

 

[steves3511]

And again, you ignore those who would run and not walk to work right now.

I am not ignoring them, I am saying they are wrong and do not have the best interests of society as a whole at heart. Kentucky recently had a spike in cases after people started protesting the stay at home order. It is too early to to go back, and frankly, those people need to deal when the lives of millions of Americans in their communities are at risk.

Kentucky reports highest coronavirus infection increase after a week of protests to reopen state

The government cannot possibly print the amount of money that you are talking about. There is no government anywhere that can sustain what you are implying. I am not trying to be harsh, I am only saying the hard truth.

Interesting how the US government had the money to spend and win WWII, they have the money for tax cuts to the rich, war whenever it is needed, bailouts for wall st, the cruise industry, the airline industry, never, not once was it asked how to pay for any of those things, but when it is the basic needs of ordinary citizens there is never any money. There is enough money, there just isnt the will to actually do it, because too many people believe those less fortunate just plain ol dont deserve it.

First it was 2 million deaths. The 1.5 million. Then 1 million. Then 500,000. Then 250,000. Now it is 60k. The projections may not have been entirely correct. Should probably tell you something that NY is donating ventilators.

2 million was if we did nothing, the numbers have gone down because of the social distancing measures. And those btw are not the total numbers, those are the numbers I believe for the next 4 months. This will continue, and if we open things up those numbers will go up...potentially a lot.

The closest parallel we have to this is the 1918 flue, millions of people died because governments did not quarantine its citizens. That virus also came in 3 separate waves, with the second being the most deadly. that is what people are worried about. Remember also, if hundreds of thousands die, that is hundreds of thousands of people no longer able to contribute to the economy and pay taxes. If we lose millions to the virus, yes that very well could be as bad if not worse if we just pay people to stay home.

And no offense, but you have absolutely no conception of what a nation-wide 35% unemployment rate is. Nor some localized 50%. The deaths that point come not from the virus, but from suicide.

You are right, I may not have the financial and banking knowledge of you and others in this thread. I sure know a whole lot about art, and way more than someone should know about Tolkien and Lord of the Rings, but what I do know is other countries that have less money and smaller economies than we do seem to have the means to provide for its citizens during this crisis (see Canada). And with ours being the greatest country and greatest economy on earth the idea that we cannot provide for our own citizens is an indictment on not only our government, but also our priorities as a nation. Sorry, I never want to be on the side that money is more important than human lives

 

[True Blue]

I am not ignoring them, I am saying they are wrong and do not have the best interests of society as a whole at heart. Kentucky recently had a spike in cases after people started protesting the stay at home order. It is too early to to go back, and frankly, those people need to deal when the lives of millions of Americans in their communities are at risk.

Kentucky reports highest coronavirus infection increase after a week of protests to reopen state

You forgot to add "in my opinion". Because like it or not, that is all it is. Not any more educated than someone who views it differently. In fact, I would wager to say that 112 million unemployed, because that is what 35% represents, most of them would tell you to stick it and feel free to stay inside until a fool proof vaccine is invented. And most would tell you that it is your view that does not have the best interest of a society at heart. At some point, waiting for a perfect solution becomes a perfect way to kill a society. I can also guarantee that when the count of the dead has to match against 112 million unemployed, and this is not about being heartless, only one of those numbers will matter to society as a whole.

2 million was if we did nothing, the numbers have gone down because of the social distancing measures. And those btw are not the total numbers, those are the numbers I believe for the next 4 months. This will continue, and if we open things up those numbers will go up...potentially a lot.

That is a view. That may not be reality. The 2 million may have well been faulty modeling to begin with. Neither you nor I have right answer and both of our views are equally as faulty. Right now, considering that the assumptions keep getting lowered, the more realistic view is that they modeling was faulty as far as the total numbers are concerned. And that it is quite possible that a complete shut down of an economy was not necessary. There could have been another way.

Also, this is not WWII. Talk to me about a time when you were staring at over a hundred million being unemployed and countless of industries wiped off the face of the earth.

The closest parallel we have to this is the 1918 flue, millions of people died because governments did not quarantine its citizens. That virus also came in 3 separate waves, with the second being the most deadly. that is what people are worried about. Remember also, if hundreds of thousands die, that is hundreds of thousands of people no longer able to contribute to the economy and pay taxes. If we lose millions to the virus, yes that very well could be as bad if not worse if we just pay people to stay home.

This is also not 1918. You are living in fantasy land if you think that you can point to a time and liken it to more than a third of the country being unemployed. You have no possible comprehension of what that is like. You think you do now. But wait until your unemployment benefits roll off and you are staring at a lifetime of zero employment. Know what happens at that point? Two things. First of all, the need to eat takes over. Second of all, you take to the streets and demand the right to have the ability to work. Or you stay inside for the rest of your life and wait for things to be made better for you.

You are right, I may not have the financial and banking knowledge of you and others in this thread. I sure know a whole lot about art, and way more than someone should know about Tolkien and Lord of the Rings, but what I do know is other countries that have less money and smaller economies than we do seem to have the means to provide for its citizens during this crisis (see Canada). And with ours being the greatest country and greatest economy on earth the idea that we cannot provide for our own citizens is an indictment on not only our government, but also our priorities as a nation.

Please let me know when any of those countries have had to care for 320 million people, all living in a densely populated place. The greatest economy in the world cannot provide for at least a third of its population not being able to provide for itself. Again sheer fantasy land. Loose tax revenue of a third of the population AND all of the small business and the greatest economy in the world suddenly has no way to provide for its population.

Sorry, I never want to be on the side that money is more important than human lives

Going to hazard a guess that you are not a parent. I have two girls. And I will do anything to ensure that they do not have to wait on breadlines. Including happily sacrificing my life and yours if I need to.

 

[True Blue]

So based on your past posts, exactly how long do I have before I become an inconsolable, suicidal, depressed wife beater?

I have no idea. For how long can you continue to earn paychecks? The fact that domestic violence and domestic child abuse numbers are already up, has been already in several reports.

People need to start putting themselves in these situations before they think that the economy should be opened out of fear that we'll go back to the stone ages.

That is no less valid than if I said maybe one should see the number of fatalities originally predicted before putting so many people out of work. Mayhaps the economy did not need to come to such a screeching halt?

I'd rather lose my job 15 times than to watch my grandpa die again.

I am truly sorry for your loss. If it happened during this hell hole, I am even more sorry. You have my true sympathies. But as I said earlier, I take the chance and sacrifice myself and you and the other poster, if it means providing for my family and my children.

You can always make money back, some how some way.

No, unfortunately not today. Not when you are staring at over 100 million people being unemployed.

You'll never get your loved ones back

I am worried that my most loved ones have a future

 

[Machinehead]

Coronavirus death toll for NYC education department climbs to 63

At least they saw some good tv in their final days.

 

[Machinehead]

https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/can-the-coronavirus-be-spread-through-farts/

Hard-hitting journalism right here.

I'm hazarding a guess that if you're exposed enough to somebody for them to fart on you, you were getting it anyway.

 

[True Blue]

Start by taking away the corporate friendly Trump tax legislation then on to the corporate friendly Bush tax cuts that Obama codified. Then we can go onto the military/industrial complex side of things and also take a hard look at the over 1000 overseas military bases we have. Over half the federal budget there..

Ufortunately for you and all of us, that is not the way that economics work. Wish it was, but it isn't. One of the main reasons that the economy was booming was because of corporate profits. That may suck but that is life. When corporate wages go up, consumer spending goes up.

And with China doing what they are doing and Russia doing what they are doing, maybe it is not time to start to shutter the military?

 

[Machinehead]

Ufortunately for you and all of us, that is not the way that economics work. Wish it was, but it isn't. One of the main reasons that the economy was booming was because of corporate profits. That may suck but that is life. When corporate wages go up, consumer spending goes up.

And with China doing what they are doing and Russia doing what they are doing, maybe it is not time to start to shutter the military?

So the economic system of a country that's about 250 years old is the only way economics works?

 

[True Blue]

So the economic system of a country that's about 250 years old is the only way economics works?

Economics work a lot of ways. But free market capitalism created more wealth and more opportunities than any other system.

Capitalism......worst system of all......except all the others.

 

[Machinehead]

Economics work a lot of ways. But free market capitalism created more wealth and more opportunities than any other system.

Capitalism......worst system of all......except all the others.

To date, yes, compared to feudalism, slavery, and bartering, it's been the best. I'm not arguing that it has no place in history.

Does that eliminate the possibility of continuing to progress? Do we have to throw our hands up and say "that's capitalism, baby!" at every unique scenario?

 

[sbjnyc]

Economics work a lot of ways. But free market capitalism created more wealth and more opportunities than any other system.

Capitalism......worst system of all......except all the others.

This country does not have real free market capitalism - we just like to pretend we do. The president just raised tarriffs on China who while not a free country are more capitalist than the us despite being run by a communist government.

 

[Machinehead]

We're not going to be able to wait this thing out until there's effective suppression. I get that.

But if we chill the f*** out 4-5 more weeks, I think it's going to save so many lives. We've made a great recovery in New York considering where we started and beat all of the models mostly because of the community's work. Can't we just squeeze another month or so out of it?

 

[Leonardo87]

https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/can-the-coronavirus-be-spread-through-farts/

Well that adds a whole other level of Silent but deadly.

 

[eco's bones]

And again, you ignore those who would run and not walk to work right now.

The government cannot possibly subsidize that many people. You name it a hard choice. But I know those to whom the choice is very easy.

The government cannot possibly print the amount of money that you are talking about. There is no government anywhere that can sustain what you are implying. I am not trying to be harsh, I am only saying the hard truth.

First it was 2 million deaths. The 1.5 million. Then 1 million. Then 500,000. Then 250,000. Now it is 60k. The projections may not have been entirely correct. Should probably tell you something that NY is donating ventilators.

And no offense, but you have absolutely no conception of what a nation-wide 35% unemployment rate is. Nor some localized 50%. The deaths that point come not from the virus, but from suicide.

We're over 40,000 dead after a little over a month and you're acting like it's over. Across the country the majority of people on ventilators are going to die and there are a lot more of them still in New York.......and we're not counting people who died in their homes not seeking medical help or a lot of those suspected of the virus playing a big part and a lot of this also depends on what a coroner or Medical Examiner writes down--this guy died from a stroke---that from a respiratory issue. We have 50 different states with all kinds of different criteria and ways of handling their issues. And we're a year--maybe more from a vaccine. In New York for instance there are two numbers--one is over 14,000 and the other (the virus + suspected deaths ) is over 18,000. The point is it's likely going to be more than 60,000. We might be at that number by the end of April and who knows we might hit 200,000 or more depending on a lot of variables including states trying to normalize too soon and getting hit with another shitload of cases.

People do kill themselves over money though. You're right there. It's not a reason I would but people are different. This isn't simply a living/dying thing though--it's stopping something contagious and a dead suicide (someone who had a choice) is better than a dead guy on a ventilator who spread his infection to 4 other people who spread their infection to a bunch of other people too. The suicide is only one who made his/her choice. The contagious guy has the potential to be many.

AFAIC the economy will sort itself out way or the other and there's the potential to restructure it so that it spreads around wealth a lot better than it had. Fact is it seems almost an imperative that it does so at this point and if it's not the same corporate happy investor friendly market economy it was before....so what.

 

[True Blue]

To date, yes, compared to feudalism, slavery, and bartering, it's been the best. I'm not arguing that it has no place in history.

Does that eliminate the possibility of continuing to progress? Do we have to throw our hands up and say "that's capitalism, baby!" at every unique scenario?

Also compared to socialism, communism and every other type of ism.

Progression is always a goal, but utopia is hard to locate.

 

[Machinehead]

Also compared to socialism, communism and every other type of ism.

Progression is always a goal, but utopia is hard to locate.

15,000 starve to death every day and this country throws away food because it produces too much.

We're very, very far from "oh well, no such thing as utopia."

 

[True Blue]

But if we chill the f*** out 4-5 more weeks, I think it's going to save so many lives. We've made a great recovery in New York considering where we started and beat all of the models mostly because of the community's work. Can't we just squeeze another month or so out of it?

We are. But it is not really sustainable with no economic opening past the May 15th shut down. And Cuomo needs to show the public what his plan is long before that.

 

[True Blue]

This country does not have real free market capitalism - we just like to pretend we do. The president just raised tarriffs on China who while not a free country are more capitalist than the us despite being run by a communist government.

Ok. I'll bite. If we do not have free market capitalism, what do we have?

Governmental ownership of business is not a very good example of capitalism.

 

[Tawnos]

Ok. I'll bite. If we do not have free market capitalism, what do we have?

Governmental ownership of business is not a very good example of capitalism.

Corporate socialism.

 

[chosen]

The Federal government did not screw this up. It was always going to hit like this. And it is now up to Cuomo (NYC), Murphy (NJ), etc to come up with a plan to reopen. And, yes, it should be measured. But it can only be measured for so long. Again, most small businesses are not in business for long with the concept of social distancing. Social distancing is bound to collapse on itself as people decide that they need to eat and in order to eat, they need to work.

A 35% unemployment rate is simply unsustainable for a country. Benefits will dry up as will people's pensions. I think that once the band aid is ripped off, it is ripped off for good.

If you open up the economy too soon, unemployment will take an even bigger hit.

The federal government had at least 6 weeks to implement the same policies that they put in two months later. The curve would have been flattened sooner, less people would have died, and we would be closer to normal life, today. The countries that reacted quickly and efficiently have done far better than America.

Now, the government is endorsing rallies to stop the strategies that have been working. These same rallies are not organic. There are organizations behind the rallies that have different goals than keeping Americans alive.

 

[True Blue]

We're over 40,000 dead after a little over a month and you're acting like it's over. Across the country the majority of people on ventilators are going to die and there are a lot more of them still in New York.......and we're not counting people who died in their homes not seeking medical help or a lot of those suspected of the virus playing a big part and a lot of this also depends on what a coroner or Medical Examiner writes down--this guy died from a stroke---that from a respiratory issue. We have 50 different states with all kinds of different criteria and ways of handling their issues. And we're a year--maybe more from a vaccine.

Where am I acting like it is over? I do not think that this will ever be over. There is no eradicating this virus. I believe that this is something that people will be dealing with forever. But that is not a reason to completely kill an economy.

In New York for instance there are two numbers--one is over 14,000 and the other (the virus + suspected deaths ) is over 18,000. The point is it's likely going to be more than 60,000. We might be at that number by the end of April and who knows we might hit 200,000 or more depending on a lot of variables including states trying to normalize too soon and getting hit with another shitload of cases.

I am not sure what to tell you here. Right now the models show 60,000, not 200,000. They started by showing 2 million. Should we not use these models as a barometer? I am completely fine with that but at that point I can just as easily say that they fatalities will be less than 60,000 as you state that they will be more.

People do kill themselves over money though. You're right there. It's not a reason I would but people are different. This isn't simply a living/dying thing though--it's stopping something contagious and a dead suicide (someone who had a choice) is better than a dead guy on a ventilator who spread his infection to 4 other people who spread their infection to a bunch of other people too. The suicide is only one who made his/her choice. The contagious guy has the potential to be many.

I am not backing suicide. I am only speaking a stark reality. Am going to presume that you have some sort of income that is coming your way as you stay at home. And please forgive me if I am wrong. That is excellent. But there are those that have no paychecks and are staring at no prospects of employment because of the immense damage done to some industries. And with such a high unemployment rate,those benefits will run out much sooner. And now there is not a penny coming in. Welcome to Hooverville creation.

AFAIC the economy will sort itself out way or the other and there's the potential to restructure it so that it spreads around wealth a lot better than it had. Fact is it seems almost an imperative that it does so at this point and if it's not the same corporate happy investor friendly market economy it was before....so what.

The economy will sort itself out, but it may take a very, very long time to do. And not without a lot of devastation and pain first.

And your "so what" is what leads to a lot of pain for a lot of people. And, please forgive me here if I am wrong, can only be spoken by someone whose checks have not stopped coming in.

 

[chosen]

I keep seeing people post about the Federal government being at fault but I don't see it. This isn't a nationwide issue like it is in the Northeast. The same reason people see HUGE salaries in the NYC and the surrounding areas is because there is so much economic business and opportunity there and it bit the area in this case with so many people travelling in and out.

It's a nationwide issue but the local leaders need to take the bull by the horns and lay out their battle plans with support from the Federal government. Expecting the Federal government to lay out specific guidelines for every locality is impossible and not how the system is set up.

Unless you have the exact strategies nationwide, you have no strategy at all.

NY got hit first, but it's accelerating in many other places now. If you think that trend will just stop on its own, guess again. Viruses like this don't just leave.

The prime job of the federal government is to protect the lives of its citizens, whatever the danger is. The states have zero to do with this.

 

[True Blue]

15,000 starve to death every day and this country throws away food because it produces too much.

We're very, very far from "oh well, no such thing as utopia."

Like I said, worst system of all. Except for all the others.

 

[Machinehead]

Like I said, worst system of all. Except for all the others.

That's not good enough.