Controversial Entertainment Opinions/Discussion Thread - Part II

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Leafsdude7

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I'm honestly surprised the concept of critical analysis about art and story/plot in particular as separate from an actual "like/hate" statement still appears difficult to grasp for many here. I'm really not sure why it's a controversial statement to say "I enjoyed x movie/TV show/album" and then state "x movie/TV show/album is not a well-made movie/TV show/album" or vice versa ("I hated it but it's well-made"). The fact is there are qualities that different art mediums require to actually be well-made when critically observed, but art can also be viewed without a critical eye and can still be enjoyed when they're not. And that's not even considering that art can be enjoyable because a critical viewing of it results in seeing it as being so absurdly bad that it becomes entertaining.

For example, I know that Independence Day is a horrible movie with plot holes, mind-numbing explosions that do little else than provide eye-candy and stupid storylines, but it's made in such a way that it never tries to pretend to be anything more than mind-numbing explosions and Will Smith one-liners and that makes it still enjoyable (personally speaking). In the same way, I know that Toy Story is one of the best made animated films ever, with extremely well-made CGI art, a well-flushed-out plot and great characters, but I just don't find it entertaining.
 
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Shareefruck

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Sure, I agree with your point but only on the basis that you haven't actually consumed the work of art who's appeal you understand. I read Lolita. It mostly did nothing for me but while reading it I can understand see how Nabokov's poetic prose, his style of writing and how the main character uses language to try and manipulate/convince the reader of his '' innocence ''. Just because it didn't work for me and my taste on a personal level does not mean I can't understand why others may like it.
Sure, but I don't see why thinking that something is good and understanding why others may think it's good should have anything to do with each other. The former doesn't really imply anything about the latter as far as I can see
I'm honestly surprised the concept of critical analysis about art and story/plot in particular as separate from an actual "like/hate" statement still appears difficult to grasp for many here. I'm really not sure why it's a controversial statement to say "I enjoyed x movie/TV show/album" and then state "x movie/TV show/album is not a well-made movie/TV show/album" or vice versa ("I hated it but it's well-made"). The fact is there are qualities that different art mediums require to actually be well-made when critically observed, but art can also be viewed without a critical eye and can still be enjoyed when they're not. And that's not even considering that art can be enjoyable because a critical viewing of it results in seeing it as being so absurdly bad that it becomes entertaining.

For example, I know that Independence Day is a horrible movie with plot holes, mind-numbing explosions that do little else than provide eye-candy and stupid storylines, but it's made in such a way that it never tries to pretend to be anything more than mind-numbing explosions and Will Smith one-liners and that makes it still enjoyable (personally speaking). In the same way, I know that Toy Story is one of the best made animated films ever, with extremely well-made CGI art, a well-flushed-out plot and great characters, but I just don't find it entertaining.
It's not difficult or controversial, I just disagree with it.

There's no reason why something being well made by the conventional critical standard should have a monopoly on what makes it "good". Good is an all-encompassing word that should factor in anything that can be valued.

I hate it but it's technically well made makes sense. I hate it but I think it's good doesn't, IMO. Whether it has likeable or hateable qualities to you inevitably is going to be a significant (one could argue overriding) attribute of its goodness or badness.

The Room is spectacularly poorly and tastelessly made. But it works on me. Therefore, I think it's a good movie despite its unquestionably poor technical quality/polish.
 
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Leafsdude7

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It's not difficult or controversial, I just disagree with it.

There's no reason why something being well made by the conventional critical standard should have a monopoly on what makes it "good". Good is an all-encompassing word that should factor in anything that can be valued.

Here's my viewpoint: "good" or "bad" should be an objective viewpoint, at least to the point where, if you say "x is good/bad" you should be able to back it up with points to defend it. On the other hand, "like" or "hate" should be completely subjective. Moreover, no one should ever be required to defend why they like/dislike media/art. In that way, you can be on one side objectively and on the other subjectively.

I hate it but it's well made makes sense. I hate it but I think it's good doesn't, IMO. Whether it has likeable or hateable qualities to you inevitably is going to be a significant (one could argue overriding) attribute of its goodness or badness.

Can you explain this? It doesn't make any sense to me how one can be true but the other false, opinion or otherwise.
 

Shareefruck

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Here's my viewpoint: "good" or "bad" should be an objective viewpoint, at least to the point where, if you say "x is good/bad" you should be able to back it up with points to defend it. On the other hand, "like" or "hate" should be completely subjective. Moreover, no one should ever be required to defend why they like/dislike media/art. In that way, you can be on one side objectively and on the other subjectively.



Can you explain this? It doesn't make any sense to me how one can be true but the other false, opinion or otherwise.
Well made is objective and enjoyable is subjective. We can agree on that.

The disagreement is that you want good = well made and like = enjoyable. I'm saying that I think it's unreasonable and misleading to make those assignments. I don't really see a good reason why it should be objective rather than subjective. It's not a practical/necessary decision to do it that way either, because you already have the words "enjoyable" and "well made" available to make that distinction and be able to debate objective statements with.

Good is an all encompassing word that just means having positive value/qualities. You can only arrive at that conclusion about something through an aggregate of how you feel about it in terms of both impressiveness and enjoyment. Anything that works or has some sort of value to you that is more positive than negative is by definition good.

Due to this, saying "I hate this, but I think it's well made" is compatible because they're completely exclusive ideas, whereas saying "I hate this, but I think it's good" is a contradiction that makes little sense, because the former is unavoidably a significant component of the latter all-encompassing thing.

The reason I think it's worth arguing against is because, due to the fact that "good" is an all encompassing word that means value of any sort, using it the way you are (and the way most people do) implies that objectively provable quality has value and subjective quality doesn't (or at least, the former has more value than the latter). It works the other way, IMO-- the medium is built on engaged experiences, not on detached calculation. I think it's only reasonable that its ultimate measure (goodness) takes that component into (at the very least) equal consideration. It's a more nuanced (I would argue more important) standard that factors in everything rather than just agreed upon academic standards that can be objectively proven. Calling that alone its "goodness" sells a movie short, in my mind.

I hypothetically could take this further and even argue that perhaps "well made" isn't a good word to use for purely objectively provable value (because what is well made is determined by what we think is effective, which can't help but be subjectively informed), but for the sake of simplicity, I'll leave that alone. I get the feeling Amerika's argument is more along those lines than what I said, though.
 
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Carolinas Identity*

I'm a bad troll...
Jun 18, 2011
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Predator 2 is one of the greatest movies of all time, and if you were born between 1960-1990, features three of the greatest performances of three of the greatest actors of your generation: Danny Glover, Bill Paxton, and Gary Busey.
 

Spring in Fialta

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Apr 1, 2007
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Sure, but I don't see why thinking that something is good and understanding why others may think it's good should have anything to do with each other. The former doesn't really imply anything about the latter as far as I can see

It's not difficult or controversial, I just disagree with it.

There's no reason why something being well made by the conventional critical standard should have a monopoly on what makes it "good". Good is an all-encompassing word that should factor in anything that can be valued.

I hate it but it's technically well made makes sense. I hate it but I think it's good doesn't, IMO. Whether it has likeable or hateable qualities to you inevitably is going to be a significant (one could argue overriding) attribute of its goodness or badness.

The Room is spectacularly poorly and tastelessly made. But it works on me. Therefore, I think it's a good movie despite its unquestionably poor technical quality/polish.

I'm not sure I'm following anymore. Did I imply the opposite?
 

Shareefruck

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I'm not sure I'm following anymore. Did I imply the opposite?

Weren't you saying in the original post that because you can understand why others may consider something that you don't like good, there's some justification for a person to think that something is good despite hating it?

In my opinion, if you're saying that something is good because it's well made but you hate it, you're not making any sense.
Eh...there's stuff where I can see the appeal/understand why it's considered as good but that I don't personally enjoy like Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov for example.

I took that as a suggestion that understanding why others think something is good is reason enough to consider something good yourself.
 
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Spring in Fialta

A malign star kept him
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Weren't you saying in the original post that because you can understand why others may consider something that you don't like good, there's some justification for a person to think that something is good despite hating it?




I took that as a suggestion that understanding why others think something is good is reason for you yourself thinking it's good.

Ah, I guess I used the wrong terminology. Perhaps '' well-made '' would have been a better word, considering to me, well-made =/ good since I consider good to be completely personal. I wasn't disagreeing with you in essence, although I do think '' hate '' to be a strong word, as I can hardly imagine someone finding something '' well-made '' and then outright hating it. I guess I can understand if you hate what a work may be trying to preach, but that, to me, isn't justification enough to hate a work of art if you find it well-made.
 

Shareefruck

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Ah, I guess I used the wrong terminology. Perhaps '' well-made '' would have been a better word, considering to me, well-made =/ good since I consider good to be completely personal. I wasn't disagreeing with you in essence, although I do think '' hate '' to be a strong word, as I can hardly imagine someone finding something '' well-made '' and then outright hating it. I guess I can understand if you hate what a work may be trying to preach, but that, to me, isn't justification enough to hate a work of art if you find it well-made.

I agree. That's why I was arguing that it didn't make sense to speak or think that way. I think we're on the same page, just got the wires crossed up. :laugh:

From your response, I mistook your position as "Liking something and calling it bad makes no sense (I agree with this) but disliking something and calling it good makes some sense (I disagree with this)."
 

Leafsdude7

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Mar 26, 2011
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Well made is objective and enjoyable is subjective. We can agree on that.

The disagreement is that you want good = well made and like = enjoyable. I'm saying that I think it's unreasonable and misleading to make those assignments. I don't really see a good reason why it should be objective rather than subjective. It's not a practical/necessary decision to do it that way either, because you already have the words "enjoyable" and "well made" available to make that distinction and be able to debate objective statements with.

Let me put it this way: if I said "x NHLer is good/bad", one should expect me to provide reasons why I think so, and if I couldn't my statement would be baseless. On the other hand, if I said "I like x NHLer", you might ask me why, but if I said I don't know, I just do, that doesn't invalidate my statement at all.

Good/bad, IMO, is a value statement that is beyond a personal feeling, while like/hate is entirely dependent on the individual and therefore doesn't always have a rhyme or reason.

It should be noted, however, that good/bad isn't truly "objective", as what exactly should be expected from good art (or even a good hockey player) just as much depends on the individual as liking or hating something. One should still be able to offer reasoning for why something is good/bad, even if others might not agree with it.
 

Shareefruck

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Let me put it this way: if I said "x NHLer is good/bad", one should expect me to provide reasons why I think so, and if I couldn't my statement would be baseless. On the other hand, if I said "I like x NHLer", you might ask me why, but if I said I don't know, I just do, that doesn't invalidate my statement at all.

Good/bad, IMO, is a value statement that is beyond a personal feeling, while like/hate is entirely dependent on the individual and therefore doesn't always have a rhyme or reason.

It should be noted, however, that good/bad isn't truly "objective", as what exactly should be expected from good art (or even a good hockey player) just as much depends on the individual as liking or hating something. One should still be able to offer reasoning for why something is good/bad, even if others might not agree with it.
I agree that it needs to be explainable, but I don't agree that it needs to be universally explainable.

The analogy doesn't work for me because sports is too different from art. Value judgements are going to be based on what matters with respect to the thing you're talking about, and the two have wildly different purposes.

In sports, what matters about a hockey player is unquestionably their ability to contribute positively towards winning hockey games/championships. That's obvious. It's built into the rules of the game, and it's what we're interested in. The fact that this purpose is unambiguous and universal is what makes it incidentally a standard that we can all agree on and argue WITH each other about using reason, logic, and universal standards. If the purpose were more ambiguous and subjective, like for example, if they just skated around the ice trying to inspire/entertain the audience with their skills and no more, individuals would have completely unique standards for what they think is a good hockey player, and there would be no reason that your opinion of that would need to apply to the entire world. If you are passionate about hockey but never care about the outcome, just the ****s and giggles of the process, perhaps it would be technically sound to consider some entertaining agitator the best hockey player. The only reason that seems irrational is because it seems irrational to watch hockey for that purpose, ignoring the very thing that is central to what it is. If you accept that purpose, however, then there's no reason to demand something universal and objectively agreeable.

It's that way with movies/music (and I think you inadvertently agreed with me by acknowledging that it isn't fully objective and depends on the person). Without a defined purpose built into the medium, the purpose is whatever people get out of it. Therefore your standards for what makes it "good" to you is achievement in whatever value you get out of the medium. Like everything else in the world, whatever that value is needs to be explainable using reason and logic, but it doesn't need to be accountable to standards that can apply to anyone else in the world besides you (sort of what you already said). Things that you like on a whim/as a guilty pleasure are explainable and rational in how they achieve that value. You value nostalgia. You value uncomplicated/non-serious comfort and enjoyment. You value reactionary titillation. If you enjoy those things, you are getting SOME value out of it. There's no way around that. It's just a question of how much positive value that's worth to you-- minimal or abundant. You can explain why something is able to satisfy those attributes. Therefore, anything that satisfies that is unavoidably a part of your personal standards and subsequently contributes positively towards its goodness. Due to that relationship, there is bound to be some strong correlation between "like" and "good". Any contradiction seems a bit dishonest to me.

Given that, the only way a guilty pleasure that you don't think is good makes sense is if you're compelled to watch it despite not enjoying it or getting anything out of it (like a joyless addiction). But then you shouldn't say that you like it either, if that's the case. If you like it, there's some worthwhile goodness to it, from your perspective. It's why the phrase "a good hockey player" has different demands compared to "a good burger". Nobody demands a universally applicable standard on what a good burger is. You just eat it and think "this is a good burger" based on how you feel about it. If people had no tastebuds, and food was unquestionably eaten predominantly for the purpose of objective nutrition, then a "good burger" would be held to a more universal standard like a "good hockey player".

Your idea of goodness is going to be informed by how you personally feel about something, one way or another, because the purpose of movies is to leave an impression on the people via experience that can be enjoyed or valued, which happens to be the same meaning as preference.
 
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Finlandia WOAT

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It's that way with movies/music (and I think you inadvertently agreed with me by acknowledging that it isn't fully objective and depends on the person). Without a defined purpose built into the medium, the purpose is whatever people get out of it. Therefore your standards for what makes it "good" to you is achievement in whatever value you get out of the medium.
)

The purpose of film and/or television is to simply tell a story .

Thus, there is a nexus of language in cinema where different camera angles, lighting, shot composition, editing techniques, etc.; and different storytelling techniques and dramatic devices all have their own specific effect in a film's story. Directors, cinematographer's and editor 's (at least the good ones ) know exactly what information and effect they are conveying and enacting when they use this, that, or some other technique. The consensus paradigm favors films that use the above techniques to tell s clear, concise story (hopefully with a point, one that furthers our understanding sonehow).

But just like hockey, you're "allowed" to argue the ordering and/or relationships of the facets within the paradigm (why Toews is so cintroversial: everyone agrees he exhibits qualities that help win games, but the discussion is to what degree).

"Enjoyment" is really only the end goal, the final act of consuming the product, but is also deeply personal, whether or not you understand what is going on fully or not.

But really, my overall point is I have no idea why you think there is no consensus on what makes a film "good". There's actually a massive amount of writing abd discussion on that very topic, mostly focused into what I said above.
 
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Spring in Fialta

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I don't know if it's controversial, but I consider spectacular failure in a work of art to have a bigger payoff and to be of more value then a work of art that's run of the mill and forgettable. Spectacular failure is far more fascinating and tingles my senses far more then an average piece. I can watch a work that's a complete failure all the way through - movies like The Room or Suicide Squad - and be far more enthralled because I have to keep watching essentially because I want to see how bad it can get/how low can a creator go almost in a perverted way. That makes the experience worth it, at least to me. Whereas if I'm watching a movie I find completely average, the experience will do absolutely nothing for me. I'll just be bored, look at the clock, etc. and then have nothing much to say about the movie and eventually forget I've ever watched it. So in that sense, I think horrible works of art can be far more fulfilling then mediocre one's.
 

Shareefruck

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)

The purpose of film and/or television is to simply tell a story .

Thus, there is a nexus of language in cinema where different camera angles, lighting, shot composition, editing techniques, etc.; and different storytelling techniques and dramatic devices all have their own specific effect in a film's story. Directors, cinematographer's and editor 's (at least the good ones ) know exactly what information and effect they are conveying and enacting when they use this, that, or some other technique. The consensus paradigm favors films that use the above techniques to tell s clear, concise story (hopefully with a point, one that furthers our understanding sonehow).

But just like hockey, you're "allowed" to argue the ordering and/or relationships of the facets within the paradigm (why Toews is so cintroversial: everyone agrees he exhibits qualities that help win games, but the discussion is to what degree).

"Enjoyment" is really only the end goal, the final act of consuming the product, but is also deeply personal, whether or not you understand what is going on fully or not.

But really, my overall point is I have no idea why you think there is no consensus on what makes a film "good". There's actually a massive amount of writing abd discussion on that very topic, mostly focused into what I said above.

(I'll be busy over the next few weeks, so I won't be able to do a detailed back and forth or answer quickly)

I have said over and over again that I do think there is a consensus in what people consider "good". I don't deny that. But I disagree that it makes sense for that to be a consensus, because it's based on something (technical/academic well-madeness) that isn't necessarily synonymous with the purpose/value of movies for everyone. I don't agree that there is a specific universal consensus in the purpose of a movie-- if there is, it certainly isn't the goal of succeeding in meeting the academic standard-- people get all sorts of things out of movies and people use it as a tool to communicate all kinds of experiences that are not interested in following that standard (whereas EVERY hockey player is interested in winning above all else). If "story" is a broad term you're using for anything that can progressively happen in a movie, then again, I would say that the purpose of story can be to convey anything that can be appreciated or valued or enjoyed. That's just the end result and there must be rules for arriving at it, I agree, but those rules only make sense if they achieve those results. Conversely, if the results are there, the rules need to be able to account for it-- otherwise, they're inaccurate rules.

If the argument is that academic/artistic standards are capable of encouraging greater value/reward than guilty pleasures can, and are therefore more able to correlate with "goodness", speaking for myself individually, I agree/relate with that experience. However, the only reason I adopt parts of that standard is because it's consistent with my actual experiences. That standard only makes sense to me if I don't think that any guilty pleasure movies are capable of providing as much reward as a thing that successfully meets that standard, which happens to be the case for me. Even so, if I enjoy a guilty pleasure, I still have to admit that it has some reward that contributes positively to its "goodness", however minimally, and I need to consider it a minimal part of my standards for me to be consistent.

On the flip side, if someone likes guilty pleasures MORE than things that succeed in meeting that standard, I don't see how one can dispassionately go along with and adopt that academic standard as being synonymous with what is considered good while still being honest with themselves. It means that they think equal or greater reward can be obtained from movies while following a completely different standard. If that's the case, from that person's perspective, it only makes sense for the guilty pleasure to be considered good, and for them to admit that they actually have a different standard entirely.

There are decisions and reasons, intentional or not, that successfully caused that result, and that their standards need to be able to explain. The person themselves may not be able to convey the reasons, and the reasons may be trivial, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or are non-factors. If a person adopts a standard that is actually accurate/honest with what they think, there should be no conflict between preference and their idea of goodness.

I mean, we've all had experiences where something blows us away and shatters all of our preconceived notions about movies/music. It doesn't make sense to argue backwards from "I guess that experience was just an outlier." NO!! You change and improve your standards to account for that new experience and understanding! Even if you can't pinpoint how it pulled it off, it can't be denied that your standards must actually be different from what you originally thought.

I suspect that some people only call them guilty pleasures because, while we feel a compulsion to watch them, we KNOW that we're not ACTUALLY getting that much satisfaction from them. But if that's the case, I think it's stupid for us to claim that we like them. Wanting the hit of watching something compulsive that you don't think is rewarding is not evidence that you like it, just like having a heroin addiction isn't evidence that you're having a good time.
 
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GarbageGoal

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Dec 1, 2005
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Dr. Strangelove is not that great of a movie, it just captures a niche audience who like to merge their politics with their entertainment.

For it's time and place, it was pretty subversive stuff. The idea that the people in charge of the button might be insane or have other motives was a subject no one wanted to broach. Nowadays, well, it's openly discussed. And you get more down to earth flicks like "Wag The Dog".
 

Shareefruck

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Apr 2, 2005
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I'm not a political person, nor am I someone who gives a rats *** about revering things that are good for their time, and Dr. Strangelove is one of my favorite movies of all time. Its execution, daring playfulness, and sharp comedic sensibilities are brilliant. It honestly makes me wish every comedy were more like that (leaving me with an excited ear-to-ear-grin) and less like the normal "ha-ha" type funny. There's just something magical about the whole thing.
 

Spring in Fialta

A malign star kept him
Apr 1, 2007
27,159
16,038
Montreal, QC
(I'll be busy over the next few weeks, so I won't be able to do a detailed back and forth or answer quickly)

I have said over and over again that do I think there is a consensus in what people consider "good". I don't deny that. But I disagree that it makes sense for that to be a consensus, because it's based on something (technical/academic well-madeness) that isn't necessarily synonymous with the purpose/value of movies for everyone. I don't agree that there is a specific universal consensus in the purpose of a movie-- if there is, it certainly isn't the goal of succeeding in meeting the academic standard-- people get all sorts of things out of movies and people use it as a tool to communicate all kinds of experiences that are not interested in following that standard. If "story" is a broad term you're using for anything that can progressively happen in a movie, then again, I would say that the purpose of story can be to convey anything that can be appreciated or valued or enjoyed. That's just the end result and there must be rules for arriving at it, I agree, but those rules only make sense if they achieve those results. Conversely, if the results are there, the rules need to be able to account for it-- otherwise, they're inaccurate rules.

If the argument is that academic/artistic standards are capable of encouraging greater value/reward than guilty pleasures can, and are therefore more able to correlate with "goodness", speaking for myself individually, I agree/relate with that experience. However, the only reason I adopt parts of that standard is because it's consistent with my actual experiences. That standard only makes sense to me if I don't think that any guilty pleasure movies are capable of providing as much reward as a thing that successfully meets that standard, which happens to be the case for me. Even so, if I enjoy a guilty pleasure, I still have to admit that it has some reward that contributes positively to its "goodness", however minimally, though. It still needs to be a minimal part of my standards in order to be consistent.

On the flip side, if someone likes guilty pleasures MORE than things that succeed in meeting that standard, I don't see how one can dispassionately go along with and adopt that academic standard as being synonymous with what is considered good while still being honest with themselves. It means that they think equal or greater reward can be obtained from movies while following a completely different standard. It only makes sense that that guilty pleasure then be considered good, from that person's perspective (and for them to admit that they actually have a different standard entirely).

There are decisions and reasons, intentional or not, that successfully caused that result, and that their standards need to be able to explain. The person themselves may not be able to convey the reasons, and the reasons may be trivial, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If a person adopts a standard that is actually accurate/honest with what they think, there should be no conflict between preference and their idea of goodness.

I mean, we've all had experiences where something blows us away and shatters all of our preconceived notions about movies/music. It doesn't make sense to argue backwards from "I guess that experience was just an outlier." NO!! You change and improve your standards to account for that new experience and understanding! Even if you can't pinpoint how it pulled it off, it can't be denied that your standards must actually be different from what you originally thought.

I suspect that some people only call them guilty pleasures because, while we feel a compulsion to watch them, we KNOW that we're not ACTUALLY getting that much satisfaction from them. But if that's the case, I think it's stupid for us to claim that we like them. Watching something you don't think is rewarding is not evidence that you like it, just like having a heroin addiction isn't evidence that you're having a good time.

Damn, shareefruck going in!
 

aleshemsky83

Registered User
Apr 8, 2008
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might not be super controversial but i think Donnie Darko is a piece of crap. Its surprising to me that people think its good. its like the fact that the plot is an incoherent jumbled mess is a positive for some people.

Look at all the ways i can interpret this movie, that must mean its good!
 

aleshemsky83

Registered User
Apr 8, 2008
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independence day is alright. its not a guilty pleasure for me. Just a mediocre movie i watched a lot because it was literally on cable once a week.
 
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