News Article: Contract talks for Senators’ Matt Duchene: update - no numbers [Part 2]

[BatherSeason]

Wow, I can't believe that it has come to the point where lifelong Sens fans are taking Melnyk's side over the best player this city and this organization has ever seen. Why is this even a discussion? Desperate times I guess...

 

[DaveMatthew]

It's funny, we didn't want to pay Alfredsson, but in his one season in Detroit at 41 years of age, he had a higher PPG than our prized replacement, Bobby Ryan, had in each of his first two seasons here, after which we rewarded him with $7.25M/year. Oh hindsight!

 

[bert]

I dont think he was ever penny pinched...his last contract here was 19/4 paid out 7 7 4 1. Those numbers for that time frame and Alfie's age were reasonable.

If you take the year out and make it 18/3 paid out 7 7 4 then at that time i dont think that was reasonable. That would have been a big overpayment for Alfie given his age and the "el cheapo" rep our owner has.

This is clearly a he said she said situation with a dash of poor communication thrown in but that aside....just purely looking at the numbers....Alfie 9 years ago or whatever it was on a 3 year 6 aav deal...no i tend to believe Murray thought he was in the right

How was a 6 million AAV overpayment for Alfredsson at that time?... His previous 4 seasons he scored 353 points in 303 games. Then the first year of the contract he score 71 points in 70 games while being a two way beast and captain of this team.

 

[JD1]

How was a 6 million AAV overpayment for Alfredsson at that time?... His previous 4 seasons he scored 353 points in 303 games. Then the first year of the contract he score 71 points in 70 games while being a two way beast and captain of this team.

How? Because the cap was 56.8, his contract was for 10.6% of the cap and he was 37 years old.

A comparable player signing at that age for 3 years would be Marleau. He signed for 6.25 aav but it was only 8.3% of the cap when he signed.

6 m a year at that point in time for a guy cruising into retirement mood...it never made sense to me

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It's funny, we didn't want to pay Alfredsson, but in his one season in Detroit at 41 years of age, he had a higher PPG than our prized replacement, Bobby Ryan, had in each of his first two seasons here, after which we rewarded him with $7.25M/year. Oh hindsight!

Yup. If we'd just kept the promise to Alfie and signed him, we never would have had the knee jerk reaction Bobby Ryan trade and wouldn't be stuck with his salary right now. It was two fold since they made that trade to try to save face.

 

[coladin]

That's an...interesting perspective. Not going to try and change your mind, but that just seems to fly in the face of everything we have heard since Alfie left.

From sources in Brian's neck of the woods all those years ago. Bryan maintained that Alfie was wrong and there was no contract extension promised to make up for the year he played at 1M. He balked and said no way to Alfie's demands, and by the time he got the ok from Melnyk to pay him whatever he wanted, it was too late. That is why he was upset that Alfie didn't get back to him before he signed with Detroit, as he had the money approved.

The impression I got from Bryan, speaking to him at a charity function, between the lines, but knowing him as we all do and his kind of nudge-wink style, confirmed what I had heard . There was no way, the hockey man, wanted to pay a 41 yr old player that kind of money.

 

[bert]

How? Because the cap was 56.8, his contract was for 10.6% of the cap and he was 37 years old.

A comparable player signing at that age for 3 years would be Marleau. He signed for 6.25 aav but it was only 8.3% of the cap when he signed.

6 m a year at that point in time for a guy cruising into retirement mood...it never made sense to me

Not comparable situation whatsoever he was scoring at over a ppg when he signed the extension. You really like to squew things to prove your point dont you. 353 points in his last 303 games at the time of signing is cruising into retirement?... Only in against the grain JDI's eyes I guess.

It didnt make sense to re-sign Alfie at that point?.... Thats what you are saying thats just wild. Glad you arent running the sens and thats me saying that with Dorion at the helm. I guess on the internet you can just say whatever you want no matter how ridiculous or stupid it is.

 

[bert]

Wow, I can't believe that it has come to the point where lifelong Sens fans are taking Melnyk's side over the best player this city and this organization has ever seen. Why is this even a discussion? Desperate times I guess...

Well we have people saying they didnt want to re-sign alfredsson after he was scoring over a ppg and captain of the team for what a decade or so? Real genious hockey minds at work.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Alfie leaving how he did was brutal but let's be honest, at that juncture, it made way more sense to get Ryan than to keep Alfie for that one extra year.

It hasn't worked out but Ryan has had a ton of injury issues, that's not the kind of stuff you can plan around.

 

[JD1]

Not comparable situation whatsoever he was scoring at over a ppg when he signed the extension. You really like to squew things to prove your point dont you. 353 points in his last 303 games at the time of signing is cruising into retirement?... Only in against the grain JDI's eyes I guess.

It didnt make sense to re-sign Alfie at that point?.... Thats what you are saying thats just wild. Glad you arent running the sens and thats me saying that with Dorion at the helm. I guess on the internet you can just say whatever you want no matter how ridiculous or stupid it is.

I'm not saying that at all Bert. It's odd that you have to always twist what gets said

Given his age and the cap situation at the time, which contract makes more sense?

19/4
18/6

Nowhere did i say that it made no sense to re-sign him

Of those two sets of numbers...the set that makes more sense to me is 19/4

Clear to you now Bert?

 

[BankStreetParade]

Thanks for digging up and quoting exactly what I was talking about.

The plan was to retire before collecting his last year of 1 million dollars, at that point he was still playing at an elite level and was going to continue his career, the organization said they would make it up to him then they renaged. What are you talking about exactly?

"He was promised it would be made up to him"... where are you getting this from? Do you have an actual source for this or is it just one of those heard at the bar type things?

Everything we know from the negotiations is that Alfredsson asked for a 1-year, $7 million contract and ended up signing in Detroit for $3.5 million base + $2 million in performance bonuses. The Senators initial offer was $4.5 million base salary with no contingent performance bonuses.

 

[bert]

I'm not saying that at all Bert. It's odd that you have to always twist what gets said

Given his age and the cap situation at the time, which contract makes more sense?

19/4
18/6

Nowhere did i say that it made no sense to re-sign him

Of those two sets of numbers...the set that makes more sense to me is 19/4

Clear to you now Bert?

How? Because the cap was 56.8, his contract was for 10.6% of the cap and he was 37 years old.

A comparable player signing at that age for 3 years would be Marleau. He signed for 6.25 aav but it was only 8.3% of the cap when he signed.

6 m a year at that point in time for a guy cruising into retirement mood...it never made sense to me

I just dont see how you can suggest he was cruising into retirment mood. He was absolutely lighting it up at the time he signed the extension. You then said it never made sense to you? Can you elaborate? You are suggesting you dont like the number which he absolutely earned and continued his strong play. Not to mention he brings so much more to the table than numbers. So you are saying they should have let him walk instead of averaging a pay structure of 6 million per season?

 

[Ice-Tray]

You can argue what market value was at that time all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the organization went back on their word and didn't honour their previous agreement. To me that constitutes a bird flipping, and a moonwalk out of there to someplace else.

This is exactly the bone of contention though. Alfie said he was promised some compensation for that last year if he signed another one year deal, and MURRAY denied that any compensation was promised. BM seems to me to be an honest and upfront man, perhaps even to a fault when it comes to media and business, but Alfie seems like a stand up guy as well. Perhaps there was a miscommunication along the way. There is zero chance that BM would outright lie simply to protect EMs image or any such nonsense.

This has not been resolved any further than a he says he says, but both parties put all of that behind them eventually, we’ll before BM passed thankfully.

 

[DaveMatthew]

This is exactly the bone of contention though. Alfie said he was promised some compensation for that last year if he signed another one year deal, and MURRAY denied that any compensation was promised. BM seems to me to be an honest and upfront man, perhaps even to a fault when it comes to media and business, but Alfie seems like a stand up guy as well. Perhaps there was a miscommunication along the way. There is zero chance that BM would outright lie simply to protect EMs image or any such nonsense.

This has not been resolved any further than a he says he says, but both parties put all of that behind them eventually, we’ll before BM passed thankfully.

I think it's telling that Alfredsson and Murray moved past it relatively quickly after Alfredsson retired, whereas the relationship with Melnyk continues to be strained, at best.

 

[Sens]

Yup. If we'd just kept the promise to Alfie and signed him, we never would have had the knee jerk reaction Bobby Ryan trade and wouldn't be stuck with his salary right now. It was two fold since they made that trade to try to save face.

That trade was the beginning of the end... take back every trade from that point and just kept the homegrown talent... my god what a team that could have been

 

[Micklebot]

"He was promised it would be made up to him"... where are you getting this from? Do you have an actual source for this or is it just one of those heard at the bar type things?

Everything we know from the negotiations is that Alfredsson asked for a 1-year, $7 million contract and ended up signing in Detroit for $3.5 million base + $2 million in performance bonuses. The Senators initial offer was $4.5 million base salary with no contingent performance bonuses.

Wait… seriously? You literally quoted the article that describes what he is taking about… It’s the very next paragraph after the one you pulled out to include in your earlier post…

“However, after the 2012 season, I told the Sens I wanted to play another season. I also asked to look at a possible extension this upcoming season at a fair amount to balance out the two years for both of us. They agreed.

I mean, you can certainly question the veracity of Alfredsson's claim, or perhaps speculate that the parties involved understood the request to mean different things, but it's from the horses mouth, not hearsay; he thought they had agreed to make up for him playing out the last year at 1 mil by paying him more in a 1 year extension.

 

[Micklebot]

This is exactly the bone of contention though. Alfie said he was promised some compensation for that last year if he signed another one year deal, and MURRAY denied that any compensation was promised. BM seems to me to be an honest and upfront man, perhaps even to a fault when it comes to media and business, but Alfie seems like a stand up guy as well. Perhaps there was a miscommunication along the way. There is zero chance that BM would outright lie simply to protect EMs image or any such nonsense.

This has not been resolved any further than a he says he says, but both parties put all of that behind them eventually, we’ll before BM passed thankfully.

Yeah, Murray never seemed like one to outright lie in a situation like that, and neither does Alfredsson. I think they likely just didn't interpret the agreement/request in the same way. I suppose it's also possible Murray forgot about it... dude was 73 at the time after all.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

That trade was the beginning of the end... take back every trade from that point and just kept the homegrown talent... my god what a team that could have been

Yup, they should have followed through on that rebuild and not tried to turn the corner too soon. They don't seem to understand their place as a small market team and what that takes in the NHL, instead they just back themselves in to a corner selling low on all their assets once they finally accept they won't sign or can't afford them.

Some foresight is badly needed in the organization instead of reactionary decisions one after the other.

 

[Micklebot]

That trade was the beginning of the end... take back every trade from that point and just kept the homegrown talent... my god what a team that could have been

Hmm... OT but:

Hoffman-Zibanejad-Stone
Dzingel-Turris-Batherson?
Silfverberg-Spezza-Tkachuk?
Smith-Pageau-?


Chabot-Karlsson
Wolanin-Ceci
Lajoie-Harpur

Anderson
Lehner

We lose out on Formenton, White, JBD/Tychonick, but get back some picks that who knows who we'd have picked. Some minor trades like moving up to grab Brown might not happen if we're being really strict, I may have missed some secondary effects like that, but solid team up front for sure.

Anyways, I like Duchene, and really hope we re-sign him, but I damn... with the numbers he's putting up it's going to be pricey, and that seems like a barrier for us...

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Alfie wanted to stay but was told that they couldn't afford to keep him and make the team better.

So he bailed, he realized he had been wasting his time here. The team had had a solid season considering it was year two of the retool, had pulled off a major upset in utterly destroying Montréal and he gets told "we can't pay you and make the team better"?

Yeah I'd bail as well

 

[undercovernerd]

Pittsburgh has apparently inquired.

Do they even have anything left to offer? Lol

I come in peace.

What are the general thoughts here as far as what you’d want in return for Duchene?

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Wow, I can't believe that it has come to the point where lifelong Sens fans are taking Melnyk's side over the best player this city and this organization has ever seen. Why is this even a discussion? Desperate times I guess...

Alfie was greedy, Dorion is a genius, and Ottawa is a premier UFA destination. Didn't you know that?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I come in peace.

What are the general thoughts here as far as what you’d want in return for Duchene?

There is no peace, your gm bent ours over twice this summer lol. Haven't you guys ripped off our team enough?!?!

My expectations on the returns for both Stone and Duchene...

1st
B prospect,
3rd or 4th rounder
Lesser known magic bean type prospect like Balcers
Usleless player with short term salary a la Boedker to facilitate deal

 

[Sens]

Hmm... OT but:

Hoffman-Zibanejad-Stone
Dzingel-Turris-Batherson?
Silfverberg-Spezza-Tkachuk?
Smith-Pageau-?


Chabot-Karlsson
Wolanin-Ceci
Lajoie-Harpur

Anderson
Lehner

We lose out on Formenton, White, JBD/Tychonick, but get back some picks that who knows who we'd have picked. Some minor trades like moving up to grab Brown might not happen if we're being really strict, I may have missed some secondary effects like that, but solid team up front for sure.

With just that Ryan deal we would keep Noesen (had 13G last season on the Devils) and would fill the 4th line RW

The club would have also kept their 2014 1st (which was 10th) ... Larkin went 15th

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

[MOD QDP]

All good, I hold no grudge at Sharks fans or Wilson for our own gm being bad at his job, or for our owner not allowing star player trades within our Conference lynching the return.

What I posted is more what I think we should be able to get for him, not what I think we actually get. I suspect it'll be a bit less than that.