Common Sense Line-up for 2014-2015

[Crymson]

Which means that he will play, regardless of how much someone else deserves the spot more.

A one-way contract means that a player will be paid the same regardless of whether he is in the NHL or the AHL. It means nothing about waivers. Were he to have signed a two-way contract, Cleary would still have been subject to waivers; he'd simply have had a lower cap hit in the minors, which would have been ideal. Sadly, our GM is a fool to whom merit means nothing.

 

[Chunkylover]

A one-way contract means that a player will be paid the same regardless of whether he is in the NHL or the AHL. It means nothing about waivers. Were he to have signed a two-way contract, Cleary would still have been subject to waivers; he'd simply have had a lower cap hit in the minors, which would have been ideal. Sadly, our GM is a fool to whom merit means nothing.

Isn't it hyperbolic to say the GM is a fool? He's not overpaying for Cleary, he showed a willingness, with Babcock, to not play Cleary in favor of other players, and it's possible that Cleary actually does bring something positive to the team. He's not the worst player in the league. Every heart and soul player is slow, clumsy, stone-handed, and often one-dimensional.

 

[Frk It]

Isn't it hyperbolic to say the GM is a fool? He's not overpaying for Cleary, he showed a willingness, with Babcock, to not play Cleary in favor of other players, and it's possible that Cleary actually does bring something positive to the team. He's not the worst player in the league. Every heart and soul player is slow, clumsy, stone-handed, and often one-dimensional.

Based on comparables, Holland is absolutely overpaying Cleary.

And he is one of the worst in the league. Without doubt. Statistically, and the eye test. Cleary on the ice is essentially playing 5 v 4.

 

[Frk It]

Khan expecting the D to look like this.

Kronwall-Ericsson
Dekeyser-Q
Kindl-Smith
Lashoff

^^^ not a fan. Put Smith in Quincey's spot, and swap Ouellet/Marchenko for one of Q/Kindl on 3rd pair and I think you have a better D.

A good amount of info that Dekeyser/Quincey, while good defensively, is lousy at driving/maintaining possession. I won't mind it too much as long as Quincey is responsible and not on the ice for every goal against again. But would like to try for a lineup that promotes better puck moving.

Ericsson likely will be reunited with Kronwall, putting Smith back on the third pairing with Jakub Kindl.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/08/red_wings_outlook_brendan_smit.html

 

[joe89]

Khan expecting the D to look like this.

Kronwall-Ericsson
Dekeyser-Q
Kindl-Smith
Lashoff

^^^ not a fan. Put Smith in Quincey's spot, and swap Ouellet/Marchenko for one of Q/Kindl on 3rd pair and I think you have a better D.

A good amount of info that Dekeyser/Quincey, while good defensively, is lousy at driving/maintaining possession. I won't mind it too much as long as Quincey is responsible and not on the ice for every goal against again. But would like to try for a lineup that promotes better puck moving.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/08/red_wings_outlook_brendan_smit.html

Gonna have to wait with three decent pairings until we have one or two of Marchenko, Ouellet, Backman and Sproul on the team. Until then, we can't waste $4M D-men to play sheltered minutes with Kindl.

 

[Winger98]

Khan expecting the D to look like this.

Kronwall-Ericsson
Dekeyser-Q
Kindl-Smith
Lashoff

^^^ not a fan. Put Smith in Quincey's spot, and swap Ouellet/Marchenko for one of Q/Kindl on 3rd pair and I think you have a better D.

A good amount of info that Dekeyser/Quincey, while good defensively, is lousy at driving/maintaining possession. I won't mind it too much as long as Quincey is responsible and not on the ice for every goal against again. But would like to try for a lineup that promotes better puck moving.



http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/08/red_wings_outlook_brendan_smit.html

Yeah, the second pairing seems like a pairing that is just giving up any hope for time in the offensive zone. Quincey will hesitate himself into trouble, panic, throw the puck to Dekeyser in a position he can't do anything with it, forwards will have to backcheck like hell, and eventually they'll chip the puck out and everyone can run for a change. Rinse. Repeat. For sixty minutes.

 

[Henkka]

Khan expecting the D to look like this.

Kronwall-Ericsson
Dekeyser-Q
Kindl-Smith
Lashoff

^^^ not a fan. Put Smith in Quincey's spot, and swap Ouellet/Marchenko for one of Q/Kindl on 3rd pair and I think you have a better D.

A good amount of info that Dekeyser/Quincey, while good defensively, is lousy at driving/maintaining possession. I won't mind it too much as long as Quincey is responsible and not on the ice for every goal against again. But would like to try for a lineup that promotes better puck moving.



http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/08/red_wings_outlook_brendan_smit.html

Who knows what Granato in thinking. Could be different what Khan is thinking.

 

[Frk It]

Who knows what Granato in thinking. Could be different what Khan is thinking.

Could be. I hope it is. Would like to see Brendan Smith get the opportunity to build on the nice playoffs he had.

Regardless of what pair he is on, as long as he's on the PP this year, that would be huge.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Could be. I hope it is. Would like to see Brendan Smith get the opportunity to build on the nice playoffs he had.

Regardless of what pair he is on, as long as he's on the PP this year, that would be huge.

I agree. I expect this to be a big year for Smith. The kid has all the tools physically he just needs to get his mental game to be more consistent.

 

[RedWingzz]

I agree. I expect this to be a big year for Smith. The kid has all the tools physically he just needs to get his mental game to be more consistent.

And he needs PP time. I see no reason not to give him PP minutes.

Z-Datsyuk-Franzen
Kronwall-Alfredsson (assuming he's back)

Nyquist-Weiss-Tatar
Dekeyser-Smith

Then give Sheahan some time as well, and Jurco too assuming he's on the team, which he should be.

If Alfie isn't back, then slide either Dekeyser or Smith to the 1st unit, or perhaps try to put a forward back there, but I don't really know who, then put Kindl on unit 2.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

The thread is called common-sense line up for 2014-2015, and then I see line ups like that posted by Khan, and it seems to contradict the whole aspect of common sense.

 

[BinCookin]

Khan expecting the D to look like this.

Kronwall-Ericsson
Dekeyser-Q
Kindl-Smith
Lashoff

^^^ not a fan. Put Smith in Quincey's spot, and swap Ouellet/Marchenko for one of Q/Kindl on 3rd pair and I think you have a better D.

A good amount of info that Dekeyser/Quincey, while good defensively, is lousy at driving/maintaining possession. I won't mind it too much as long as Quincey is responsible and not on the ice for every goal against again. But would like to try for a lineup that promotes better puck moving.



http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/08/red_wings_outlook_brendan_smit.html

If this turns out to be right:

Half my common sense lineup is correct:

Zetterberg--Datsyuk--Alfredsson
Nyquist--Weiss--Franzen
Tatar--Sheahan--Abdelkader
Miller--Helm--Cleary

Andersson
Glendening

Kronwall--Ericsson
Quincey--Dekeyser
Smith--Kindl
Lashoff

Howard
Gustovsson

Mantha (GR)
Jurco (GR)
Ferraro (Waived)
Callahan (Waived)

 

[probertrules24]

With our current line-up I actually like the pairings.

Kronwall - Ericsson = top pairing

Dekeyser - Quincey = looked good at the end of year. I think Dekeyser will help minimize some of the mistakes.

Kindl - Smith = I like moving Kindl back to the left side and giving him a partner who can skate the puck out of the defensive zone. I thought to many times Lashoff would pass off when Kindl didn't have a real chance to make a play. I like that both guys can try to move the puck quickly and it's not left to one guy.

Who knows if this is what we'll see or if it lasts but I'm good with them. I would of rather not re-signed Quincey and had Marchenko playing with Kindl but this is our roster so make the best of it.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

The possession stats of the Quincey-Dekeyser pairing to me is a perfect example of where advanced stats don't necessarily tell the whole story. They were very steady as a pairing down the stretch; the best 2nd pairing we've had in a while. I felt very comfortable with them on the ice. So when I hear about how poor they were from a possession standpoint, I take it with a grain of salt...

Who were they spending the majority of their time with as a pairing? To begin with, Datsyuk and Zetterberg weren't in the lineup for the most part when they were a pairing so there's a huge chunk of your possession gone. Quincey-Dekeyser were playing big minutes and often times against opposing 1st or 2nd lines. They both ended up right near Kronwall (and E) in terms of lowest offensive start %. Smith was quite a bit higher, so even though he played much of the 2nd half with Kronwall, that tells me that Quincey-Dekeyser were still getting some of the more difficult assignments and less sheltered. The bottom pairing, as you can imagine, was by far the most sheltered. Likewise, the Kid line upfront was our most sheltered unit. My memory isn't crystal clear, but that likely suggests that Quincey-Dekeyser weren't getting much a chance to play with the Kid line, our best possession unit. Considering that the Glendening-Miller unit was essentially our shutdown unit much of the end stretch, I'm betting Quincey-Dekeyser were on the ice with them quite often. Glendening-Miller, for as well as they did as a emergency shutdown unit, aren't possession players.

I'd like to see what Quincey-Dekeyser's possession numbers look like if they played more minutes this upcoming season with better forward units.

 

[Frk It]

You have to apply context to the stats though, and to me it matches with what I saw.

And I'm certainly not saying that pairing sucks.

They were solid in their own end, but they were in their own end far too often. They don't contribute well to sustaining offensive zone possession (cycle), and as a pairing they are not great at getting the puck to the forwards efficiently (transition). These were things that I noticed, and it correlates with some of that info.

They were solid defensively through down the stretch. And aside from the penalties, I found myself not having anything bad to say about Quincey's game during that time for the most part. But the ice is slanted against our favor possession-wise when they are out, and while forwards certainly factor into that equation, I think it's hard to ignore.

We will see what happens with hopefully a healthy team, like you said, hopefully added depth improves those numbers so that we ice a better puck possession team top to bottom.

 

[Henkka]

Don't really see Abdelkader being outside of the top 9. Whether we like it or not.

When's the last time he was a regular on the 4th line? Seems like he's been at least on line 3 for awhile now.

Funny thing on this whole Abdelkader-debate is how people won't understand what kind of line our TOP line really is in Mike Babcock's eyes. (and I don't mean you, just wanted to quote something from the past regarding Abdelkader...)

It will be a shut-down line, plays against opposite teams best line. Their primary thing is not to score, but prevent the opposite teams best players from scoring. And if they score against that line, that's a plus. Those superstars main job is to score on the power-play and then Abdelkader sits on the bench. Total ice-time minutes will separate pretty much in a perfect way when thinking the big picture in Babcock's line matcing...

So people who are saying that Abdelkader belongs to a cheking line, are right. Because our TOP line is a checking line 5-on-5 in Mike Babcock's hockey mind. Akader adds a physical element on it.

Problem on this board is that some "XBox-people" in here are thinking our TOP line only offensively, and justifying that Abdelkader won't belong on that kind of line. It's not the best combo offensively, but it still works. It won't have that perfect offensive mix there, but it isn't needed because the main thing is to maximize the defence on that line.

Justin Abdelkader is a strong player defensively. So is Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Those guys main thing in our team is to be extremely strong defensively.

***

I could see our lines used this way:

1. Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Abdelkader (defensive zone faceoffs, against TOP competition)
4. Miller - Helm - Glendening (defensive zone faceoffs, secondary option)


2. Franzen - Weiss - Nyquist (offensive zone faceoffs, equal option)
3. Tatar - Sheahan - Alfredsson/Jurco (offensive zone faceoffs, equal option)

So, TOP line duty is to shut-down opposite 1st line. helm line duty is to bring at least the puck from the own end to offensive end. Maybe create a scoring chance, maybe draw a penalty, get at least offensive zone faceoff for those better offensive lines to start the next shift. That's winning hockey. Transitioning the game from own end to opposite end and match middle6 offensive lines to start from offensive zone. If there was an icing, our offensive lines are attaking against an exhausted unit. Good things will start to happen...

So you kind of have two defensive and two offensive units for your line matcing. If the primary option was already on the ice, use the secondary option. But you always have the another decent option. Team depth is the key for everything. healty team would give a sick depth when you start imagine helm on the 4th line.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Not going to give an exact lineup construction, but just some general ideas.

1. Gator not being in the top six EVER.
2. Cleary not being on the North American continent ever again
3. Franzen being demoted to the bottom six the second he decides to take a game off
4. Smith gets adequate time on the PP
5. DD babysits Quincey

 

[Frk It]

Funny thing on this whole Abdelkader-debate is how people won't understand what kind of line our TOP line really is in Mike Babcock's eyes. (and I don't mean you, just wanted to quote something from the past regarding Abdelkader...)

It will be a shut-down line, plays against opposite teams best line. Their primary thing is not to score, but prevent the opposite teams best players from scoring. And if they score against that line, that's a plus. Those superstars main job is to score on the power-play and then Abdelkader sits on the bench. Total ice-time minutes will separate pretty much in a perfect way when thinking the big picture in Babcock's line matcing...

So people who are saying that Abdelkader belongs to a cheking line, are right. Because our TOP line is a checking line 5-on-5 in Mike Babcock's hockey mind. Akader adds a physical element on it.

Problem on this board is that some "XBox-people" in here are thinking our TOP line only offensively, and justifying that Abdelkader won't belong on that kind of line. It's not the best combo offensively, but it still works. It won't have that perfect offensive mix there, but it isn't needed because the main thing is to maximize the defence on that line.

Justin Abdelkader is a strong player defensively. So is Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Those guys main thing in our team is to be extremely strong defensively.

***

I could see our lines used this way:

1. Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Abdelkader (defensive zone faceoffs, against TOP competition)
4. Miller - Helm - Glendening (defensive zone faceoffs, secondary option)


2. Franzen - Weiss - Nyquist (offensive zone faceoffs, equal option)
3. Tatar - Sheahan - Alfredsson/Jurco (offensive zone faceoffs, equal option)

So, TOP line duty is to shut-down opposite 1st line. helm line duty is to bring at least the puck from the own end to offensive end. Maybe create a scoring chance, maybe draw a penalty, get at least offensive zone faceoff for those better offensive lines to start the next shift. That's winning hockey. Transitioning the game from own end to opposite end and match middle6 offensive lines to start from offensive zone. If there was an icing, our offensive lines are attaking against an exhausted unit. Good things will start to happen...

So you kind of have two defensive and two offensive units for your line matcing. If the primary option was already on the ice, use the secondary option. But you always have the another decent option. Team depth is the key for everything. healty team would give a sick depth when you start imagine helm on the 4th line.

A line with Datsyuk and Zetterberg is going to be good defensively regardless of who the 3rd player is. Thats two elite two way forwards.

They need a 3rd wheel that can't bury the chances they create. Having them be a shutdown line is a waste.

 

[Henkka]

Having them be a shutdown line is a waste.

Babcock has said this multiple times, he prefers to have it that way and you think things are done in a wrong way?

For whom are we giving the Jack Adams in here?

That shut-down TOP line is the key for everything. As an example, at last season, that's why we lost many games where we had the lead, because that kind of line was missing. Guys were able to get the lead, but because Zetterberg and Datsyuk were missing(injured), rest of the group couldn't hold the lead (especially when you have holes on the defence). The difference was extremely obvious. Others just can't play that Selke-level defence and protect the lead.

Datsyuk is the perfect shut-down player. If he doesn't have the puck, he is gonna steal it back, and transition the game on the other end. Winning hockey.

 

[Henkka]

Last season Ice-times at Even Strength:

Defence:

Zetterberg 16:28
Datsyuk 16:23
Abdelkader 13:45

Helm 12:19
Glendening 11:05
Miller 11:02

--------------

Offense:

Franzen 14:25
Nyquist 13:36
Weiss 12:32

Sheahan 12:19
Tatar 12:03
Alfredsson 13:32
(Jurco 11:32)

Like we see, Ice-Time separation would be pretty equal using last season's roles. Datsyuk and Zetterberg will have some extra shifts at key moments of the game.

 

[Frk It]

Babcock has said this multiple times, he prefers to have it that way and you think things are done in a wrong way?

For whom are we giving the Jack Adams in here?

That shut-down TOP line is the key for everything. As an example, at last season, that's why we lost many games where we had the lead, because that kind of line was missing. Guys were able to get the lead, but because Zetterberg and Datsyuk were missing(injured), rest of the group couldn't hold the lead (especially when you have holes on the defence). The difference was extremely obvious. Others just can't play that Selke-level defence and protect the lead.

Datsyuk is the perfect shut-down player. If he doesn't have the puck, he is gonna steal it back, and transition the game on the other end. Winning hockey.

Dude. Babcock is a great coach.

I'm saying I don't like that 1 line. And Babcock doesn't either which is why he never keeps it together for long.

Don't know why you're going on this random tangent taking about the line that never works and Babcock always breaks up.

Abdelkader started last season with Datsyuk and Zetterberg and made it FIVE games before Babcock replaced him with Bertuzzi who looked better in the same role. Bert stayed there for awhile and then he gave Alfredsson a turn there for awhile. So basically he said two 40 year olds were better suited to play there over Abdelkader.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Just another annoying attempt to bring reasoning to Abdelkader belonging in the top 6.

Funny how people act like Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg haven't been playing the shutdown role for 8+ years now.

Who was Datsyuk and Zetterberg's primary winger during their best defensive season together? Holmstrom. Not a single person would call Holmstrom strong defensively. In fact, even calling Homer "average defensively" would be a stretch to say the least.

But what Holmstrom brought and maintained was puck possession. Datsyuk and Zetterberg had their highest Corsi season(s) with Holmstrom.

As I've pointed out earlier in the thread, the presence of Abdelkader along skill players weakens possession and goals for/goals against ratio.

Whether it was Datsyuk and Zetterberg, Zetterberg and Nyquist, Weiss and Franzen, or Sheahan and Tatar, all of those combos performed better without Abdelkader on their line, both from a Corsi/possession standpoint and from a goals for/goals against standpoint.

A huge part of Datsyuk and Zetterberg's defensive game is flat out keeping the puck away from opposing top lines. Possession. Abdelkader has had a negative impact on possession for top 6/scoring lines.

And why are we now pretending like Abdelkader is some defensive stud? He's not. Just because you'll hit and go to the corners doesn't mean you're a defensive presence. When Datsyuk and Zetterberg were both out last season, Glendening-Miller were tasked with playing the tougher minutes. And for a guy who hardly plays on the PP, why doesn't Abdelkader play big PK minutes?

 

[Actual Thought*]

Just another annoying attempt to bring reasoning to Abdelkader belonging in the top 6.

Funny how people act like Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg haven't been playing the shutdown role for 8+ years now.

Who was Datsyuk and Zetterberg's primary winger during their best defensive season together? Holmstrom. Not a single person would call Holmstrom strong defensively. In fact, even calling Homer "average defensively" would be a stretch to say the least.

But what Holmstrom brought and maintained was puck possession. Datsyuk and Zetterberg had their highest Corsi season(s) with Holmstrom.

As I've pointed out earlier in the thread, the presence of Abdelkader along skill players weakens possession and goals for/goals against ratio.

Whether it was Datsyuk and Zetterberg, Zetterberg and Nyquist, Weiss and Franzen, or Sheahan and Tatar, all of those combos performed better without Abdelkader on their line, both from a Corsi/possession standpoint and from a goals for/goals against standpoint.

A huge part of Datsyuk and Zetterberg's defensive game is flat out keeping the puck away from opposing top lines. Possession. Abdelkader has had a negative impact on possession for top 6/scoring lines.

And why are we now pretending like Abdelkader is some defensive stud? He's not. Just because you'll hit and go to the corners doesn't mean you're a defensive presence. When Datsyuk and Zetterberg were both out last season, Glendening-Miller were tasked with playing the tougher minutes. And for a guy who hardly plays on the PP, why doesn't Abdelkader play big PK minutes?

Because he is our scoring line winger?

 

[Crymson]

I'd like to see Helm, Miller, and Glendening form a shutdown line. The latter two performed quite ably on a line against the opposition's top trio for several games late last season, though Babcock dumped that effective strategy for no apparent reason upon Datsyuk's return.

And why are we now pretending like Abdelkader is some defensive stud? He's not. Just because you'll hit and go to the corners doesn't mean you're a defensive presence. When Datsyuk and Zetterberg were both out last season, Glendening-Miller were tasked with playing the tougher minutes. And for a guy who hardly plays on the PP, why doesn't Abdelkader play big PK minutes?

He's actually quite good defensively, and I'm unsure why he doesn't play bigger PK minutes; last season, of all players who logged more than 30 minutes on the 5v4 PK, he had the lowest tally of goals against per minute.

He played quite a bit on both the PP and the PK early last season, doing decently on the former and well on the latter, but Babcock abruptly, inexplicably took away all of those minutes and gave them to Cleary (with predictably terrible results). At around the same time, Abdelkader was exiled to the 4th line.

Isn't it hyperbolic to say the GM is a fool? He's not overpaying for Cleary, he showed a willingness, with Babcock, to not play Cleary in favor of other players, and it's possible that Cleary actually does bring something positive to the team. He's not the worst player in the league. Every heart and soul player is slow, clumsy, stone-handed, and often one-dimensional.

Cleary is overpaid by dint of him having been given a contract in the first place. At the very least, he's overpaid in that he did not receive league minimum after an unbelievably bad season that demonstrated the severely declined condition of his body and would, otherwise, have left him without a team last season. Yes, it's possible that Cleary could bring something positive to the team; but given his now-extensive history of degenerative, gradually worsening knee injuries, I find that hugely unlikely. I find it likewise unlikely that he will not receive the same undeservedly preferential treatment he has been given the past two seasons and offseasons.

I never said that he was the worst player in the league last season---I give John Scott that particular honor---but I do believe he was one of the worst, and certainly the worst on the Red Wings.

Your assertion that every heart-and-soul player possesses those negative qualities is asinine and thoroughly incorrect, and demonstration of this fact can be found in Cleary himself; he was once quick, limber, a decent puckhandler, and very solid in all facets of his game. The difference between then-Cleary and now-Cleary is age and debilitating injuries. All the heart, soul, and effort in the world can't overcome a broken body, as his last two seasons have amply shown.

 

[Debrincat93]

Lashoff better be on GRG if we're taking about common sense lineups.. He's just not good.