Commercialization ruining minor hockey

[Yukon Joe]

High school hockey exists in Toronto. My kids aren't that old yet, but the way I hear it, if you are a high level competitive player at that age, your team wants you no where near high school hockey. As in, if you want to do that, you aren't playing for this team kinda thing.

That was my understanding from Winnipeg. If you're playing U17AAA (or whatever) you are definitely not playing high school hockey - it's just too big a time commitment.

But if you're that step below - still good, but not in the AAA stream, it was an option to go play high school hockey instead. It certainly isn't beer league for high schoolers.

 

[Squiffy]

That was my understanding from Winnipeg. If you're playing U17AAA (or whatever) you are definitely not playing high school hockey - it's just too big a time commitment.

But if you're that step below - still good, but not in the AAA stream, it was an option to go play high school hockey instead. It certainly isn't beer league for high schoolers.

Ya, I'm not sure what the demarcation level is for that. AA players? A?

 

[krown]

In BC, high school hockey begins right after spring break, after the minor hockey/academy/zone teams seasons are over. This gives kids a chance to play with their friends (whom are are all on different teams during hockey season) for fun.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Interesting article, with some actual concrete numbers, about the decline of youth hockey in Canada, with various surveys showing the overt commercialization as the leading cause.

Canadian youth hockey facing steady decline

All four ice rinks at Susan Fennell Sportsplex are full of action on this winter Saturday morning, the air filled with the sound of hockey skates grinding through ice and pucks clanging off the glass.

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[jetsmooseice]

Interesting article, with some actual concrete numbers, about the decline of youth hockey in Canada, with various surveys showing the overt commercialization as the leading cause.

Canadian youth hockey facing steady decline

All four ice rinks at Susan Fennell Sportsplex are full of action on this winter Saturday morning, the air filled with the sound of hockey skates grinding through ice and pucks clanging off the glass.

www.sportsnet.ca

Sounds like a combination of two things:

1) Lack of suitable places to play, which is itself being caused by increasing construction costs and the challenge of replacing the post-war vintage rinks that dot the landscape in Canada, and climate change which has dramatically shortened the length of time that outdoor rinks are available for use across the country. (I'd wager that at this point there isn't much in the way of outdoor rinks outside the Prairies, Northern Ontario and Northern Quebec.) This leads to other problems like inconvenient schedules.

2) "Overt commercialization" in the form of obsession with elite everything, from decking out 7 year olds in $2000 worth of gear to super costly training programs, summer hockey programs, elite programs, etc. As one of the people in the article notes, there is real pressure to sign on to that as a package deal as part of having a kid in hockey.

I guess it's not shocking that a lot of parents, particularly those who aren't hockey fans (i.e. most immigrant or even many 2nd gen households), will consider the costs and hassles involved with hockey and nope out in favour of another sport which delivers similar benefits at a much a lower price and inconvenience factor.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

Sounds like a combination of two things:

1) Lack of suitable places to play, which is itself being caused by increasing construction costs and the challenge of replacing the post-war vintage rinks that dot the landscape in Canada, and climate change which has dramatically shortened the length of time that outdoor rinks are available for use across the country. (I'd wager that at this point there isn't much in the way of outdoor rinks outside the Prairies, Northern Ontario and Northern Quebec.) This leads to other problems like inconvenient schedules.

2) "Overt commercialization" in the form of obsession with elite everything, from decking out 7 year olds in $2000 worth of gear to super costly training programs, summer hockey programs, elite programs, etc. As one of the people in the article notes, there is real pressure to sign on to that as a package deal as part of having a kid in hockey.

I guess it's not shocking that a lot of parents, particularly those who aren't hockey fans (i.e. most immigrant or even many 2nd gen households), will consider the costs and hassles involved with hockey and nope out in favour of another sport which delivers similar benefits at a much a lower price and inconvenience factor.

Several times this year my son had games and practices on the weekend at 7 or 8 pm. It was pretty hard on my wife and I who work demanding full time jobs. Often Saturday night is the only night we can hang out as a family and have fun, but instead we’d be at an arena for 2 hours.

Also to your second point, we have a Pro Hockey life store close by. It’s amazing to watch type A dads stare at their 8 year olds while they try out $300 sticks in a shooting booth for half an hour.

 

[jezhockey]

hockey culture being destroyed, greed taking over

 

[patnyrnyg]

Several times this year my son had games and practices on the weekend at 7 or 8 pm. It was pretty hard on my wife and I who work demanding full time jobs. Often Saturday night is the only night we can hang out as a family and have fun, but instead we’d be at an arena for 2 hours.

Also to your second point, we have a Pro Hockey life store close by. It’s amazing to watch type A dads stare at their 8 year olds while they try out $300 sticks in a shooting booth for half an hour.

One of the player's on my daughter's team was constantly complaining to his father he wanted a different stick. Of course, the stick he wanted was about $300. Kid is 9. Father wouldn't buy it for him, but kid managed to save his bday money along with some gift cards and bought it himself. First game with it, he had 6 shot attempts go high when he had the goalie down and out. Kid is a good player and would normally bury all of them. His father goofed on him for a few weeks for it.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Sounds like a combination of two things:

1) Lack of suitable places to play, which is itself being caused by increasing construction costs and the challenge of replacing the post-war vintage rinks that dot the landscape in Canada, and climate change which has dramatically shortened the length of time that outdoor rinks are available for use across the country. (I'd wager that at this point there isn't much in the way of outdoor rinks outside the Prairies, Northern Ontario and Northern Quebec.) This leads to other problems like inconvenient schedules.

2) "Overt commercialization" in the form of obsession with elite everything, from decking out 7 year olds in $2000 worth of gear to super costly training programs, summer hockey programs, elite programs, etc. As one of the people in the article notes, there is real pressure to sign on to that as a package deal as part of having a kid in hockey.

I guess it's not shocking that a lot of parents, particularly those who aren't hockey fans (i.e. most immigrant or even many 2nd gen households), will consider the costs and hassles involved with hockey and nope out in favour of another sport which delivers similar benefits at a much a lower price and inconvenience factor.

Saw something on a hockey parent facebook group yesterday. Had me dying. Premise was the poster had 2 kids, older one has no interest in sports. Younger one plays hockey. Older one gets dragged to rink. She has started designing shirts for the "elite sports siblings". One of them says, "He is 5! Why are we here 7 days a week?"

 

[timekeep]

Several times this year my son had games and practices on the weekend at 7 or 8 pm. It was pretty hard on my wife and I who work demanding full time jobs. Often Saturday night is the only night we can hang out as a family and have fun, but instead we’d be at an arena for 2 hours.

Also to your second point, we have a Pro Hockey life store close by. It’s amazing to watch type A dads stare at their 8 year olds while they try out $300 sticks in a shooting booth for half an hour.

When my kid was young we had the brutal 6am practices on the weekends.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

When my kid was young we had the brutal 6am practices on the weekends.

Ugh. That’s one way to make the weekends feel like weekdays. Although I’m guessing your work didn’t even make you wake up at 4:30 am.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Interesting article, with some actual concrete numbers, about the decline of youth hockey in Canada, with various surveys showing the overt commercialization as the leading cause.

Canadian youth hockey facing steady decline

All four ice rinks at Susan Fennell Sportsplex are full of action on this winter Saturday morning, the air filled with the sound of hockey skates grinding through ice and pucks clanging off the glass.

www.sportsnet.ca

So look - the story does have some actual concrete numbers, but for the most part is just full of conjecture and anecdotes no better than a HF Boards discussion.

So here's the key statistic:

At the time, Hockey Canada reported 340,365 youths younger than 18 participating in the sport, a 35% drop from 523,785 just 13 years earlier.

So I don't want to be accused of saying there's no problem. There is. And this is what this statistics points out.

But it's hard to dig into many statistics. I tried to find the underlying report the news article is based around. This appears to be it:

Canadian youth sports rebound after pandemic disruptions, but rising costs raise concerns about affordability | SRG

But note the report itself is not available online. You can email for a "free summary", or you have to purchase the full report.

So look - do more kids do swimming and soccer than hockey in Canada? Sure, I can believe that. Soccer is unbelievably easy to do (at young ages), and swimming is seen as an important life skill (again at young ages). All of my kids have done both soccer and swimming.

But from there... lets see...

Parents cited financial issues as their top concern (58%)

No kidding. I don't care the sport - finances are a concern. Always But does that mean it's the primary reason kids don't play hockey?

Fundamentally - if you ask parents of kids who don't play hockey why their kids don't play hockey - they'll give you a bunch of reasons. Doesn't mean you're getting at the REAL reason.

I particularly "liked" this section:

Other sports can also feel like a safer choice than hockey with its speed, hits and sharp skates. Gianfranco Talarico is the founder of Daredevil Hockey, which has been making cut-proof gear for more than a decade. He said his company's feedback and surveys have shown safety and cost are the biggest things hindering a more rapid growth of the sport.

"It’s so intertwined in the fabric of Canadians," he said. “If we don’t collectively focus on making hockey a safer sport, the potential brand equity of hockey in general will start to diminish."

Gee what a surprise - a guy who makes cut-proof gear says that making hockey safer is really important. I wonder why he'd say that. (note: I do support cut-proof gear, just don't think this is why more kids don't play hockey)

Or this goes to a point I've made a bunch of times:

Klimsiak, the Brampton coach, estimated that the cost of being on a competitive team — the ones that travel to tournaments and have multiple set practice times as opposed to recreational teams — starts at $4,000, with some teams charging $10,000 or more. He said some Toronto hockey organizations are combining resources because there aren’t enough players to go around.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO PLAY ELITE/COMPETITIVE HOCKEY TO PLAY HOCKEY. Recreational hockey is very much a thing, and one that most players do. Don't point to the highest end elite programs as a reason not to play hockey at all.

So one factor I'm not so sure about:

A further concern: Are there enough ice rinks to accommodate hockey as a source of fun and character-building for children? Canada's population, now nearly 40 million, has doubled in 50 years, and the International Ice Hockey Federation reports there are still just 2,860 indoor ice rinks across the sprawling country. Renting ice can cost hundreds of dollars just for 1-2 hours.

Kinnaly pointed to a 2019 Parks and Recreation Ontario plan to invest $2 billion over the next two decades on 45 new soccer fields, 30 basketball courts, 18 indoor pools and a single hockey rink as further cause for concern

“The number of rinks that are in disrepair or have closed further compresses the availability of ice time,” Kinnaly said. “If there aren’t places for people to play, it’s going to continue to be a headwind, a real challenge.”

Look - more ice sheets are always better. I don't think you'll ever get ice costs under $100/hr. But I know in Edmonton they've been pretty consistent about new ice sheets. There's supposed to be a new city-owned rec centre complete with twin ice sheets for 2028 (Lewis Farms). There was a private twin ice rink build in Nisku just last year. Strathcona County is building a new twin ice rink. We had a huge 4-sheet rink built in 2011 (so nice that's where the NHL teams practiced during the 2020 bubble), and another 2-sheet ice rink built in 2014 (Meadows). While there have been calls to close some of the aging single-ice rinks close to downtown so far the city has kept them open.


So yeah - the article points to a real problem - overall declining hockey enrollment. I know I talk to other hockey dads who compare how many kids were playing when they were kids compared to now. But this article doesn't do much to explain what's going on.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Ugh. That’s one way to make the weekends feel like weekdays. Although I’m guessing your work didn’t even make you wake up at 4:30 am.

Wait until you get 6am practices on week-days...

 

[timekeep]

Ugh. That’s one way to make the weekends feel like weekdays. Although I’m guessing your work didn’t even make you wake up at 4:30 am.

Back then I was in the service industry and occasionally I had to go in early. Not that early though. My daughter was a swimmer too, and that sport screws with your hours. Hockey isn't even close to the time commitment of a competitive swimmer.

Wait until you get 6am practices on week-days...

Signed my kid up for weekday mornings power skating, started at 630 twice a week. Don't think it paid off....

 

[Yukon Joe]

Signed my kid up for weekday mornings power skating, started at 630 twice a week. Don't think it paid off....

Power skating can definitely pay off, but

A: very much depends on how good the instructor is; and
B: starts to hit diminishing returns. If you have a younger kid and this is the first time they're exposed to power skating they can show huge improvement fairly quickly. Repeated power skating lessons can still give improvement, but less and less.

Not that PS isn't valuable - as you get up to higher levels even the slightest edge is invaluable. But you don't see the massive improvement any longer.

 

[timekeep]

Power skating can definitely pay off, but

A: very much depends on how good the instructor is; and
B: starts to hit diminishing returns. If you have a younger kid and this is the first time they're exposed to power skating they can show huge improvement fairly quickly. Repeated power skating lessons can still give improvement, but less and less.

Not that PS isn't valuable - as you get up to higher levels even the slightest edge is invaluable. But you don't see the massive improvement any longer.

I'm just saying he didn't make the show!!

 

[Yukon Joe]

I'm just saying he didn't make the show!!

Fair enough!

I don't think my kids are making the show either.

But I think I shared this anecdote before, but what the heck. We signed up my oldest kid for a twice per week early morning (6:30) extra practice session. It was really good coach to skater ratio, I think it helped. My kid wanted to do it to improve.

We asked my middle kid if he also wanted to do it, since we were driving to the rink anyways. His answer? Nah...

That probably reflects why one kid played AA last year, and the other (who loves hockey just as much if not more) played Tier 4.

 

[timekeep]

Fair enough!

I don't think my kids are making the show either.

But I think I shared this anecdote before, but what the heck. We signed up my oldest kid for a twice per week early morning (6:30) extra practice session. It was really good coach to skater ratio, I think it helped. My kid wanted to do it to improve.

We asked my middle kid if he also wanted to do it, since we were driving to the rink anyways. His answer? Nah...

That probably reflects why one kid played AA last year, and the other (who loves hockey just as much if not more) played Tier 4.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic, lots of dad's spend way too much money chasing that dream with the most expensive sticks, skates and lessons, etc. If my kids were going to play sports I wanted them to compete and try their hardest, we had to equip them with the skills and knowledge to compete.

 

[jetsmooseice]

YOU DON'T HAVE TO PLAY ELITE/COMPETITIVE HOCKEY TO PLAY HOCKEY. Recreational hockey is very much a thing, and one that most players do. Don't point to the highest end elite programs as a reason not to play hockey at all.

That's fine and it works for most people, but boy that sure would be an awkward conversation to have with a kid who loves hockey and is good enough to play AA/AAA but his parents can't afford it. "Son, we know you made AAA but we've looked at our bank statements and we've decided you'll have to play U15 minor hockey this season"

There are a lot of factors pushing kids away from hockey and towards soccer/basketball:

• Lower cost
• Kids can pick it up on their own, don't have to buy gear/get them dressed/take them to a special facility to play
• Easier to play casually and get into it
• Less concern over head injuries (although soccer has its own issues)
• Can play in playgrounds/gym class at school
• You don't have to commit to it at an exceptionally early age the way you do with hockey

And that's just off the top of my head.

I like hockey but I personally don't have a stake in its survival and I don't care if it declines in popularity. I enjoy the game but I could never relate to people obsessed with "growing the game".

If the powers that be prefer it to be a country club type of sport that serves a smaller number of well heeled kids, then that's fine. I take no issue with a Canada of 2065 where basketball, soccer and cricket have overtaken hockey in popularity. As long as the kids still have options to play team sports, have fun and be active, then that's all I'm really looking for.

 

[Yukon Joe]

That's fine and it works for most people, but boy that sure would be an awkward conversation to have with a kid who loves hockey and is good enough to play AA/AAA but his parents can't afford it. "Son, we know you made AAA but we've looked at our bank statements and we've decided you'll have to play U15 minor hockey this season"

There are a lot of factors pushing kids away from hockey and towards soccer/basketball:

• Lower cost
• Kids can pick it up on their own, don't have to buy gear/get them dressed/take them to a special facility to play
• Easier to play casually and get into it
• Less concern over head injuries (although soccer has its own issues)
• Can play in playgrounds/gym class at school
• You don't have to commit to it at an exceptionally early age the way you do with hockey

And that's just off the top of my head.

First of all, having awkward conversations about money with your kids is just part of being a parent. I mean my family is much better off than most - but there are families in our social circles with nicer houses and nicer cars. One family we know goes on annual vacations to places like Hawaii or Europe - we go camping instead.

Second - sure, soccer or basketball and cheaper to play than hockey - but again if you want to play elite soccer or basketball - it again gets very expensive.

 

[jetsmooseice]

First of all, having awkward conversations about money with your kids is just part of being a parent. I mean my family is much better off than most - but there are families in our social circles with nicer houses and nicer cars. One family we know goes on annual vacations to places like Hawaii or Europe - we go camping instead.

Second - sure, soccer or basketball and cheaper to play than hockey - but again if you want to play elite soccer or basketball - it again gets very expensive.

I get what you're saying. But all those points speak to the one major distinction between hockey and many other sports... there are simply fewer barriers to playing soccer/basketball, etc. It's totally rational for families to not jump through hoops and make huge personal sacrifices for their kids to play hockey when other sports are much less of an imposition and deliver roughly the same bundle of benefits in terms of exercise, fitness, learning how to be a team player, making friends, etc.

 

[krown]

One major fact the Sportsnet article left out is that it only mentions Hockey Canada numbers going down. With the rise of independent hockey leagues providing an alternative, it's natural for HC's numbers to decline. Although there is no way to account for the increase in numbers from all of these other leagues, it would be interesting to see the REAL decline in total kids playing hockey.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

I get what you're saying. But all those points speak to the one major distinction between hockey and many other sports... there are simply fewer barriers to playing soccer/basketball, etc. It's totally rational for families to not jump through hoops and make huge personal sacrifices for their kids to play hockey when other sports are much less of an imposition and deliver roughly the same bundle of benefits in terms of exercise, fitness, learning how to be a team player, making friends, etc.

My son plays both hockey and soccer and there are massive differences. First off skating vs running. Skating is a difficult skill to learn if you haven’t been doing it since a fairly young age, but every kid can run. My son started hockey a bit late and skating is still his biggest issue. He can carry the puck and skate in a straight line as fast as anyone, but he looks awkward at times. He trains on rollerblades but it’s just not the same (I actually think sometimes he should play roller hockey instead lol).

Second is the way minor hockey is structured so “the rich get richer”. A kid that has trouble skating might be on the ice in house league twice a week, whereas a AA kid is doing 5 additional sessions of power skating a week.

Third I wouldn’t be surprised to see most kids quitting hockey when body contact gets introduced. It’s just not for everyone.

Fourth hockey is taken way too seriously here. Where I live, you won’t see a dad down at the park desperately trying to get his 3 year old to throw a curve ball, but you’ll see that same dad trying to get that kid to skate. The parents that show up to my son’s soccer game are on their phones the whole time, but at hockey, grandma and grandpa are there and dad is yelling at the kid to play harder lol. And that’s house league. I wonder if that gets to kids after a while.

 

[Yukon Joe]

My son plays both hockey and soccer and there are massive differences. First off skating vs running. Skating is a difficult skill to learn if you haven’t been doing it since a fairly young age, but every kid can run. My son started hockey a bit late and skating is still his biggest issue. He can carry the puck and skate in a straight line as fast as anyone, but he looks awkward at times. He trains on rollerblades but it’s just not the same (I actually think sometimes he should play roller hockey instead lol).

Second is the way minor hockey is structured so “the rich get richer”. A kid that has trouble skating might be on the ice in house league twice a week, whereas a AA kid is doing 5 additional sessions of power skating a week.

Third I wouldn’t be surprised to see most kids quitting hockey when body contact gets introduced. It’s just not for everyone.

Fourth hockey is taken way too seriously here. Where I live, you won’t see a dad down at the park desperately trying to get his 3 year old to throw a curve ball, but you’ll see that same dad trying to get that kid to skate. The parents that show up to my son’s soccer game are on their phones the whole time, but at hockey, grandma and grandpa are there and dad is yelling at the kid to play harder lol. And that’s house league. I wonder if that gets to kids after a while.

Few different thoughts...

-skating versus running. Okay so I mostly didn't play hockey as a kid, but I did cross country and track. Being able to run well is very much a skill just like skating to be trained. So yes while you can't just step onto the ice without learning how to skate first, the basics of skating are pretty easy and can be learned quickly.

-rich getting richer. Absolutely. If you don't make AA one year, and you're back in community with one practice / one game per week, it's hard to see how you're going to be beating out those kids in AA who are on the ice five times. Unless you start signing up for a bunch of extra sessions...

-body contact. SO I said I mostly didn't play hockey. I played one year, I was bad at it, and with body contact coming the next year I tapped out. But I don't think that's as much of an issue any longer. Body contact is introduced much later (something traditionalists will complain about) and even then only at higher levels. You can go right from initiation to U18 without body contact if you wish.

-seriousness. I think again it comes down to the level of the sport. Let me tell you there are definitely some hardcore soccer parents out there yelling at their kids. But does that kind of attitude scare kids off from all kinds of sports? For sure.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

Few different thoughts...

-skating versus running. Okay so I mostly didn't play hockey as a kid, but I did cross country and track. Being able to run well is very much a skill just like skating to be trained. So yes while you can't just step onto the ice without learning how to skate first, the basics of skating are pretty easy and can be learned quickly.

-rich getting richer. Absolutely. If you don't make AA one year, and you're back in community with one practice / one game per week, it's hard to see how you're going to be beating out those kids in AA who are on the ice five times. Unless you start signing up for a bunch of extra sessions...

-body contact. SO I said I mostly didn't play hockey. I played one year, I was bad at it, and with body contact coming the next year I tapped out. But I don't think that's as much of an issue any longer. Body contact is introduced much later (something traditionalists will complain about) and even then only at higher levels. You can go right from initiation to U18 without body contact if you wish.

-seriousness. I think again it comes down to the level of the sport. Let me tell you there are definitely some hardcore soccer parents out there yelling at their kids. But does that kind of attitude scare kids off from all kinds of sports? For sure.

I guess I was trying to point out the difference between the lowest level of the 2 sports. Our hockey house league is taken really seriously here, and contains some surprisingly talented players (kids that could but don’t want to play rep, kids that want to play with their buddies, kids that are borderline BB players or didn’t make the team because politics). There are multiple championships at the end of the season, ending with a regional travel tournament if your team is good. Also there is an all star team (Select) that plays exhibitions against other cities and is supposed to be a developmental level. By comparison our soccer house league is just a bunch of kids running around kicking a ball. There is no year end tournament or championship. The parents don’t seem to care and the coaches are just there to police playing time.

I guess at the highest level of soccer here you very much have to work on cardio vascular endurance (train to run).

Oddly enough I have a similar story to yours with body contact. I played for a few years and wasn’t the greatest skater. My parents said I had to spend the summer in power skating or I was going to get killed. None of that sounded like fun to me so I instead became a decent skier.