Colorado Avalanche

[demonic]

I just don't see how you can feel that your tiny, limited, anecdotal set of observations can possibly trump mountains of substantial evidence (much of which has been discussed in this thread) when it comes to evaluating an entire hockey market.

If by "mountains of substantial evidence", you mean your little Olympic TV rating statistic, the Kevin Dineen thing, and your bizarre argument that Denver supports the Nuggets when they are losing, then I would suggest that you know surprisingly little about mountains for a Coloradian.

Anyway, I'm not trying to trump anything, I'm merely expressing my opinion as someone who grew up in a hockey hotbed and has visited other American cities that put Denver to shame when it comes to pure love for the game. I think Denver is a decent second tier hockey market at best, and that will become extremely clear when the Avs go through their rebuilding stage.

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

If by "mountains of substantial evidence", you mean your little Olympic TV rating statistic, the Kevin Dineen thing, and your bizarre argument that Denver supports the Nuggets when they are losing, then I would suggest that you know surprisingly little about mountains for a Coloradian.

Anyway, I'm not trying to trump anything, I'm merely expressing my opinion as someone who grew up in a hockey hotbed and has visited other American cities that put Denver to shame when it comes to pure love for the game. I think Denver is a decent second tier hockey market at best, and that will become extremely clear when the Avs go through their rebuilding stage.

No, that's not all of what is meant by moutains of substantial evidence. It doesn't even approach all of what's been discussed in this thread (which in turn doesn't cover all of the evidence over many years). But I'm open to listening to how anything Denver has done would cause it to be "put to shame" by all of these other American markets you've apparently studied, as long as what you offer us doesn't simply consist of more anecdotal observations, like how you met some people in another city who played hockey. There have been a lot of good, thoughtful, meaningful contributions in this thread with respect to real, large-scale numbers and tangible features that characterize hockey markets. You've yet to offer one such item in support of your claim that's comparable.

 

[demonic]

OK then, let me ask you this. If every team in the league was playing around .500 for several years in a row, where would the Avs rank in attendance? I would guess between 10th and 15th. Nothing to be ashamed of or insulted by, but nothing to brag about either. It's a pretty solid franchise, but if Denver had been given an expansion team in 96 instead of an instant contender, they would get smoked by the Minnesota Wild on every level.

 

[BednarIsStupid]

The most pouplar hockey team in the world? Guess you never heard of the Detroit Red Wings?

guess you don't know the facts. the avs have a strong following through the midwest, sweden, and the czech republic. i've seen evidence of it via traveling. i've read articles describing the avs popularity. they are the most popular, so deal with it!

 

[Hasbro]

If by "mountains of substantial evidence", you mean your little Olympic TV rating statistic, the Kevin Dineen thing, and your bizarre argument that Denver supports the Nuggets when they are losing, then I would suggest that you know surprisingly little about mountains for a Coloradian.

A couple of those were mine. The fan base supported the Nuggets up through the Mutumbo era at which point it descended into Wirtz territory. Bickstaff cut loose all of our young talent and ownership systematicaly alienated just about every revered figure in the team's history (Moe, English, Issel) the NBA itself wasn't in great shape then either.

The major problem with the Rockies is the Monforts, once they're gone I bet attendence will get back up.

The Dineen brothers spent time growing up here while their dad was coaching the Spurs. Kevin and Shawn returned to play at DU.

 

[se7en*]

I thought this was about how well Denver will support the Avalanche, not the Nuggets, Rockies and whatever else they have down there. It will be interesting to see if it ever happens.

 

[thinkwild]

I'd think one reason why the Av's have such big followings out of their market, is because they were so successful. And obviously had the great players that made them successful that people wanted to see and follow.

Which NHL market, having been given the AVs team with Roy, and had that teams success over the next half dozen years, wouldnt of become a big market flush with playoff revenues and a lot of fan interest? I think all current markets could do that with a team like that. Which makes a great team like that very valuable.

If there is a current market that could of had Colorados successful team for 5 years, and not had their string of sellouts and playoff cash, then it isnt a hockey market, and would likely want to move to a better market where it could be like that with that success. Like the Devs now I imagine.

 

[Jester]

While I agree with you, I also think that there is much more to it than that. You have to factor other things into the mix such as jersey sales as just one example. I seem to recall seeing something that had those stats, not just jerseys but overall team stuff that put the Wings on top of the league in overall sales.

You might also want to take a look at how a given team draws on the road. For example, two years ago the Wings paid a visit to Atlanta to play the Thrashers. The entire arena was a sea of red and white . You would have thought that you were at the Joe. Granted a large part of the pouplation of Atlanta is made up of midwestern transplants but still that was one of the few sell outs the Thrashers had that season.

flyers fans are common theme in all arenas around the league as well. detroit is the winner in the number of US fans, which is why they are on ESPN constantly. the last i saw the flyers draw the second best national rating (which is why the detroit/philly final was the networks wet-dream). i must admit i don't pay close attention to such things, nor am i saying that the avs aren't a strong market.

the problem with jersey sales and all that stuff is that you begin to hit into the wealth of the people in the area, and which area has a better per capita income. this is where i would imagine a team like denver does VERY well... obviously a very good place in terms of avg. income i would imagine... where as we are hurting a bit here in philly.

i already put forward that i think the avs are going to be absolutely fine, in fact i think they are a midwestern flyers. by that i mean a franchise that enjoyed immediate and sustained success that allows the market to build around a winner, rather than a struggling team. once people are fans they are fans, something i believe firmly. if you give your heart to something and you are a true sports fan, that doesn't disappear in the lean years... so the avs will be fine.

the one tv-rating from last year that i do know is that philly was the 2nd strongest tv market in the stanley cup finals last year, which makes sense considering how painfully close we were... again.

someone, somewhere posted that in overall fiscal stuff it was toronto at no. 1 followed by philly. it on here somewhere, no idea what numbers they were using. needless to say, the avs, flyers, and wings are NOT the problem with the NHL right now.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

TSN's last reader poll had us fifth 3rd out of the US, ESPN's sportsnation survey had us as 2nd US

ok so your 5th out of the US, whats your point?

And I'll tell you why Detroit is the lone exception in the US, THE LIONS!

and the Tigers...oh my!
I also think because they're so close to Canada, they get alot of Wings fans from Windsor and such....

I'm still curious to see what the hockey base there is when the Avs don't make the playoffs

 

[Brindfan]

Another factor to consider about Denver is fans of other NHL teams that now live in Colorado. I was at an Av-sucks/Rangers game and about 1/2 of the Pepsi Center was filled with Rangers fans, and this is during the time that the Rangers have sucked. Games against the Flyers, Blackhawks, Bruins, Red Wings, and Stars usually have about 1/3 of the Pepsi Center full of fans of these teams.

The CHL Colorado Eagles, who play just outside of Loveland and Ft. Collins, have sold out every game since they arrived in 2003.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

Another factor to consider about Denver is fans of other NHL teams that now live in Colorado. I was at an Av-sucks/Rangers game and about 1/2 of the Pepsi Center was filled with Rangers fans, and this is during the time that the Rangers have sucked. Games against the Flyers, Blackhawks, Bruins, Red Wings, and Stars usually have about 1/3 of the Pepsi Center full of fans of these teams.

The CHL Colorado Eagles, who play just outside of Loveland and Ft. Collins, have sold out every game since they arrived in 2003.

Thats actually quite comon I think...

The Yotes and Ducks games I have been to have had anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 the crowd wearing the other teams jearsy's.

Kings games the number is usually a bit lower, but against the better teams its still around the 1/3rd number.

 

[Hasbro]

Another factor to consider about Denver is fans of other NHL teams that now live in Colorado. I was at an Av-sucks/Rangers game and about 1/2 of the Pepsi Center was filled with Rangers fans, and this is during the time that the Rangers have sucked. Games against the Flyers, Blackhawks, Bruins, Red Wings, and Stars usually have about 1/3 of the Pepsi Center full of fans of these teams.

That is more of an asset than anything. The thing that propells fierce rivalries here more than anything is obnoxious ***hole fans who fled other cities who shout their mouth off to everyone in the office about how much better they are and retreat right after. The lack of an identifyable archrival is a detrement to to the Rockies and Nuggets (they tried with Seattle and LA for a while.) Broncos have the AFC West, CU has Bovine University, DU has CC, the Avs have the Wings, Nucks and Stars to hate on.

The CHL Colorado Eagles, who play just outside of Loveland and Ft. Collins, have sold out every game since they arrived in 2003.

USA Hockey is headquartered in the Springs.

Worth noting some of the best hockey markets have hit slumps, Boston, Detroit, Minnesota.

 

[Hasbro]

ok so your 5th out of the US, whats your point?

No 5th for the NHL it was TO, Montreal, Detroit and the Rag$ ahead in the TSN poll. We had all these people trying to quantify the popularity, so some surveys on the matter are relevant.

 

[Injektilo]

guess you don't know the facts. the avs have a strong following through the midwest, sweden, and the czech republic. i've seen evidence of it via traveling. i've read articles describing the avs popularity. they are the most popular, so deal with it!

Oh, .... cause everything you just listed was researched and backed up fact by an impartial observer....

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

OK then, let me ask you this. If every team in the league was playing around .500 for several years in a row, where would the Avs rank in attendance? I would guess between 10th and 15th. Nothing to be ashamed of or insulted by, but nothing to brag about either. It's a pretty solid franchise, but if Denver had been given an expansion team in 96 instead of an instant contender, they would get smoked by the Minnesota Wild on every level.

To answer your question, I'm honestly not sure. But my best guess is that if every team in the league was at basically the same level for years in a row, I think you'd see somewhat similar attendance among, say, the top several or top half of the markets... just guessing roughly. And among that top half, I don't think there would be a huge gap from one to the next to distinguish them... you'd be able to rank them obviously, since someone would be 1 and someone would be 15, but my guess is that the difference between, say, 3 and 10, would be pretty small. It's pretty much guessing, though. Regarding your last point above, that would be the same Minnesota that couldn't get 4,000 people into the building during the later North Stars years, right? And the same Minnesota that lost their team after going to the Stanley Cup FINALS just two years prior (and was actually still about a .500 team the year before moving), right? My point isn't to critique that market. On the contrary, my point is that even good hockey markets can and will suffer the same lousy support and even lose a team when the circumstances are right. No US market is immune (and most Canadian markets aren't either).

 

[Roots73]

Is Denver a strong hockey market? Of course. Will attendance slide if they start to suck?? Of course, but 28 other franchises are in the same boat with the Avs on that point.

The only team in the NHL where fans are dumb enough to sellout a building for a team that sucks are the Maple Leafs and there's decades of proof there. If you're looking for "Cubs-like" fans, there's you're hockey analogy right there.

Unless the Avs makes some moves once hockey starts up again, they may slide from the upper echelons of the Western Conference. Without their veteran core of defensemen and possibly without Forsberg and Sakic, they have alot to make up for in the next 3-4 years if many of these veterans decide to go into forced retirement under the "new" NHL.

If that happens, attenance will slide somewhat. Heck even Montreal had some soft spots in attendance during the dark days of the mid 90's. It's natural, but I think that Denver has a strong core of fans that would continue to fill at least 3/4 of the rink on a consistant basis.

 

[Habsaku]

Is Denver a strong hockey market? Of course. Will attendance slide if they start to suck?? Of course, but 28 other franchises are in the same boat with the Avs on that point.

The only team in the NHL where fans are dumb enough to sellout a building for a team that sucks are the Maple Leafs and there's decades of proof there. If you're looking for "Cubs-like" fans, there's you're hockey analogy right there.

Unless the Avs makes some moves once hockey starts up again, they may slide from the upper echelons of the Western Conference. Without their veteran core of defensemen and possibly without Forsberg and Sakic, they have alot to make up for in the next 3-4 years if many of these veterans decide to go into forced retirement under the "new" NHL.

If that happens, attenance will slide somewhat. Heck even Montreal had some soft spots in attendance during the dark days of the mid 90's. It's natural, but I think that Denver has a strong core of fans that would continue to fill at least 3/4 of the rink on a consistant basis.

I suggest you inform yourself. 17500 two years ago was the lowest attendance ever in the bell centre.

 

[dawgbone]

the avs are the most popular hockey team in the world...they have fans in canada and many of them across the seas. there have been articles in the DP trying to legitimize these statements.

Sweet Jesus... ever heard of the Maple Leafs?

I can't stand the Leafs, but I don't think there is a single hockey team world wide with more fans.

 

[se7en*]

I see sporadic Avalanche fans at Rexall. Not many. Not enough to justify the statement that they are noted in every arena. There are definetely more Wings fans (here anyways). You should see any Canadian arena when the Leafs visit. Or the Saddledome when the Oilers play there.

 

[DuklaNation]

This team is on the definite decline. If Forsberg is gone and Sakic near retirement, the forward ranks will be average at best.

Defense is old and goaltending is uninspiring.

We'll see if the fans keep coming then.

A good comparison is the Dallas Stars who are entering a similar phase.

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

This team is on the definite decline. If Forsberg is gone and Sakic near retirement, the forward ranks will be average at best.

Defense is old and goaltending is uninspiring.

We'll see if the fans keep coming then.

A good comparison is the Dallas Stars who are entering a similar phase.

In all of these conversations, though, I think it is important to not limit market comparisons/evaluations to just the bad times or times of decline. It is just as important to do these comparisons during times of success. And taking those same two markets into account--Denver and Dallas--who have both enjoyed teams of virtually the same success level over roughly the same time, I think you'll find signficant differences that reflect the level of importance that hockey holds within the culture of the market (whether they be attendance streak, home-team TV ratings, overall NHL TV ratings not involving the home team--both regular season and playoff, non-NHL hockey TV ratings, the home team's place on the local sports totem pole, per capita participation, etc.).

 

[Jori]

One thing that hasn't been noted is that youth hockey has tripled since the Avs came to town. Look at how many Colorado born players are on DU and CC's teams compared to 10 years ago. I think Denver is an above average hockey market. There are enough hard core fans in the area that even in a period of decline, it wont be the Colorado (hockey) Rockies revisited.

Some one mentioned how fans have abandoned Coors Field. Yes, attendance has declined, but at worst they have been middle of the pack. Given how management has flat out lied to fans, I'm surprised its not worse. The Florida Marlins would kill for the attendance the Rockies have had the past few years. Denver is a better sports town than some people give credit. When you consider the population of the area and number of sports teams, you think the market is oversaturated, but remarkably its not.

 

[Roots73]

I suggest you inform yourself. 17500 two years ago was the lowest attendance ever in the bell centre.

And that is in a rink with over 21,000 capacity?? I'm not saying that Montreal was in trouble like Carolina, but there were a few years there where total capacity for the whole year was around 95% and dipped lower than that for a few years. Some in the media circles were starting to worry about waning support for the Canadiens when normally they were selling out the building. Some thought that the new rink was just too big.

To regularily have a 5% vacancy on seats in the Molson/Bell Centre for a team with so much history like the Habs, well I consider that to be a soft spot. Imagine the same happening in Detroit or Toronto, it would be a virtual disaster in these markets.

 

[hockeytown9321]

Denver, Detroit, and Philadelphia are all great hockey markets. In any given year, you can find examples of Denver and Detroit (and I imagine Philadelphia) at or near the top in ratings, in no particular order. For example:

http://www.detnews.com/2002/sports/0206/03/a01-505146.htm

"Detroit was second in playoff ratings this year with a 9.8 rating, behind just Denver, which had a 14.7."

This was, of course, in 2002 after the Wings had eliminated the Avs. Still great overall playoff viewing numbers, though.

Keep in mind that the CBC numbers are not included there. Most fans in Detroit watch CBC over ESPN or ABC, given the choice.

 

[Hasbro]

If you want to see a sport we don't give a damn about, check out local college basketball.