Coaching is a serious problem.

[ReHabs]

Damn you lay it out very accurately

I mean, it's a pretty uncharitable take though -- it doesn't allow much room for natural variability. It depends on your perspective and bias. Speaking for myself, I honest-to-God want them to succeed and I totally accepted and announced here about being wrong about a "quick" rebuild: we simply didn't have the dogs to quickly rebuild.

But now I feel my original instincts might've been right: the losing culture that has been festering is devastating to see and I'm sure it's not worth whatever upside there is with getting pick 5 over pick 10 in one season's entry draft.

 

[nhlfan9191]

An uncharitable take would be that Hughes started with a great set-up: Zero expectations of winning for years to come, a loooooong leash, a team already in the pits with nowhere to go but up + a high value draft pick, a team coming off an unlikely playoff run with players at peak value (Lehkonen, Chiarot), two LTIRetired players who, instead of giving declining performances, give zero cap hit and disappear (Weber, Price), and the last bits of the cap crunch to sell cap space at a premium (Monahan).

Basically he had a clear slate and the whole fanbase + media on his side and zero pressure. It's sad to see that he has squandered it, because we had so much enthusiasm coming into this season that even they said "the expectation is that we'll be in the mix". I understand some things are not in his control but he's done nothing to stop the bleeding and his coach that he prematurely extended has been big-time exposed.

They started with nothing. Had average assets to sell with the former core retired/LTIR’ed and unstable to sell. The Toffoli’s/Lehkonen’s brought back little. They also had 6 years of Gallagher, 4 years of Armia, etc ontop of cap managing the LTIR contracts if they wanted compete. What are you talking about? Lol Suzuki is the only player that can be considered a core piece inherited right now even with draft selection.

 

[ReHabs]

They started with nothing.

Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle -> nothing

Had average assets to sell with the current core retired/LTIR’ed. the Toffoli’s/Lehkonen’s brought back little to sell.

He got too little for them, yes. In fact, he got taken for a ride on both trades.

Petry trade was good but he's hanging on to Matheson a bit too preciously for a tankmaster.

They also had 6 years of Gallagher, 4 years of Armia, etc ontop of cap managing the LTIR contracts if they wanted compete. What are you talking about?

Habs didn't need to or have any interest in using all available cap space. Gallagher's awful cap hit ended up immaterial because they didn't want to compete and could not compete with the rosters Hughes put together (because he was trying to lose).

What are you talking about? I mean, I didn't say they started with a bounty of treasure so you're barking up the wrong tree here. Hughes had a mandate to lose and he still does: no one's turned on him. He's losing like a champion loser. This is his job. He preferred Reinbacher to Michkov; and it might turn out to be the right move because with Michkov on the roster we wouldn't be losing as much this season. This is a bonus losing season, it mustn't be squandered.

I have my doubts about this lose every season strategy but I'm clearly in the minority here. Losing is good in Montreal, it's the culture we want going forward.

Lol Suzuki is the only player that can be considered a core piece right now even with draft selection.

I thought Suzuki was nothing

 

[nhlfan9191]

Delete.

 

[ReHabs]

You’re looking threw blinders so distorted it’s hard to take serious. You’re drilling decisions with hindsight and zero information. I defended you during the Slafkovsky rookie season, you’re starting to annoy me now with negativity.

I'm plenty annoyed by fake enthusiasm and unearned positivity while my dear Montreal Canadiens lose and lose and lose and the young players play worse than I've ever seen them play.

We lost 9-2 the other day ffs and it barely registered. Hughes has the keys to the city.

 

[Habby4Life]

An uncharitable take would be that Hughes started with a great set-up: Zero expectations of winning for years to come, a loooooong leash, a team already in the pits with nowhere to go but up + a high value draft pick, a team coming off an unlikely playoff run with players at peak value (Lehkonen, Chiarot), two LTIRetired players who, instead of giving declining performances, give zero cap hit and disappear (Weber, Price), and the last bits of the cap crunch to sell cap space at a premium (Monahan).

Basically he had a clear slate and the whole fanbase + media on his side and zero pressure. It's sad to see that he has squandered it, because we had so much enthusiasm coming into this season that even they said "the expectation is that we'll be in the mix". I understand some things are not in his control but he's done nothing to stop the bleeding and his coach that he prematurely extended has been big-time exposed.

You hit the nail on the head!

 

[Draft]

An uncharitable take would be that Hughes started with a great set-up: Zero expectations of winning for years to come, a loooooong leash, a team already in the pits with nowhere to go but up + a high value draft pick, a team coming off an unlikely playoff run with players at peak value (Lehkonen, Chiarot), two LTIRetired players who, instead of giving declining performances, give zero cap hit and disappear (Weber, Price), and the last bits of the cap crunch to sell cap space at a premium (Monahan).

Basically he had a clear slate and the whole fanbase + media on his side and zero pressure. It's sad to see that he has squandered it, because we had so much enthusiasm coming into this season that even they said "the expectation is that we'll be in the mix". I understand some things are not in his control but he's done nothing to stop the bleeding and his coach that he prematurely extended has been big-time exposed.

Meh. Mostly revisionist or grossly biased.

- You and many others are expecting wins in Hughes’ third season with almost none of what we’ve accumulated through the rebuild actually in the NHL… so that comment doesn’t fit. You can say “but it’s about how they’re losing” but I think that’s mostly a cop-out.
- A high pick in one of the weakest drafts this millennia. I like Slaf, but he’s a ways from Bedard/Celebrini.
- There’s no way to spin the massive Price and Weber LTIR contracts as a positive thing to inherit, that’s just stupid.
- He created the cap space that’s allowed him to make additional deals. He did not inherit a well-managed cap.

Dach/Newhook/Barron aren’t working out. Those are valid criticisms that you don’t need to be cartoonishly pessimistic to make. Most of the gambles Hughes took to accelerate the rebuild haven’t worked out (so far) and we would have needed all of them to hit to be competitive.

If we approached the rebuild with the understanding that most/all of these moves for prospects have been risks rather than certainties, the direction of the team might be a little clearer.

Historically speaking, if we were the absolute best drafting and developing team in the NHL, we could expect to have around 30% of our draft picks become NHL players (just regulars, not necessarily special). Just below 24% would still have us in the top-10 across the league. The prospects we’ve acquired came with a bit more certainty but with more baggage too. All of them appear to be NHL players, none of them appear to be elite. Acquiring high-upside young players has worked for us as a way to create depth in the organization, it hasn’t produced elite talent. IMO, this is a disappointment rather than a management failure.

I think it’s unreasonable to expect this team/coach to be competitive at this point. There are too many holes, not enough experience, and too few good players on the roster. We’ve had next to no capacity to add UFAs or reap the rewards of our high picks. Those next steps come once we start integrating and establishing high-end talent like Slafkovsky, Hutson, Demidov, Reinbacher, etc. alongside our existing core. The success of the rebuild will be decided by the moves that Hughes/Gorton make to fill needs around this group. I think assessing that happens as early as this offseason, but it’s absolutely not relevant this season.

You hit the nail on the head!

Everything looks like a nail when all you have is a hammer.

 

[TennisMenace]

You hit the nail on the head!

I can’t believe I’m saying this now because things have changed so much this season, but I now can say I have no confidence in people making decisions who have power. That means our GM and our HC. Acquiring Dach, Reinbacher, and Newhook all look to be huge mistakes that is now costing us dearly.

But what is worse I’m afraid is the confidence they have put in MSL who according to his coaching resume has shown nothing positive at all……and is getting worse if this year continues as is.

I feel dirty jumping ship 1/4 of the way in. Sigh…..TM

 

[Habby4Life]

I can’t believe I’m saying this now because things have changed so much this season, but I now can say I have no confidence in people making decisions who have power. That means our GM and our HC. Acquiring Dach, Reinbacher, and Newhook all look to be huge mistakes that is now costing us dearly.

But what is worse I’m afraid is the confidence they have put in MSL who according to his coaching resume has shown nothing positive at all……and is getting worse if this year continues as is.

I feel dirty jumping ship 1/4 of the way in. Sigh…..TM

Not jumping ship just pointing out issues instead blindly following. Hugo has had it easy for 3 yrs, just folks blindly following and pats on the back.

Hugo is worthy of criticism, and imo he is just an average GM.

 

[Habby4Life]

Meh. Mostly revisionist or grossly biased.

- You and many others are expecting wins in Hughes’ third season with almost none of what we’ve accumulated through the rebuild actually in the NHL… so that comment doesn’t fit. You can say “but it’s about how they’re losing” but I think that’s mostly a cop-out.
- A high pick in one of the weakest drafts this millennia. I like Slaf, but he’s a ways from Bedard/Celebrini.
- There’s no way to spin the massive Price and Weber LTIR contracts as a positive thing to inherit, that’s just stupid.
- He created the cap space that’s allowed him to make additional deals. He did not inherit a well-managed cap.

Dach/Newhook/Barron aren’t working out. Those are valid criticisms that you don’t need to be cartoonishly pessimistic to make. Most of the gambles Hughes took to accelerate the rebuild haven’t worked out (so far) and we would have needed all of them to hit to be competitive.

If we approached the rebuild with the understanding that most/all of these moves for prospects have been risks rather than certainties, the direction of the team might be a little clearer.

Historically speaking, if we were the absolute best drafting and developing team in the NHL, we could expect to have around 30% of our draft picks become NHL players (just regulars, not necessarily special). Just below 24% would still have us in the top-10 across the league. The prospects we’ve acquired came with a bit more certainty but with more baggage too. All of them appear to be NHL players, none of them appear to be elite. Acquiring high-upside young players has worked for us as a way to create depth in the organization, it hasn’t produced elite talent. IMO, this is a disappointment rather than a management failure.

I think it’s unreasonable to expect this team/coach to be competitive at this point. There are too many holes, not enough experience, and too few good players on the roster. We’ve had next to no capacity to add UFAs or reap the rewards of our high picks. Those next steps come once we start integrating and establishing high-end talent like Slafkovsky, Hutson, Demidov, Reinbacher, etc. alongside our existing core. The success of the rebuild will be decided by the moves that Hughes/Gorton make to fill needs around this group. I think assessing that happens as early as this offseason, but it’s absolutely not relevant this season.



Everything looks like a nail when all you have is a hammer.

So how they are losing, they have mailed in games. 3rd period (Pit) some guys quit, that is a problem. Even Evans stated afterwards maybe some guys quit. Getting bombed 1/4 of the schedule is a problem.

His acquisitions, it’s fair to say they are bad. Are people supposed to ignore that? All four guys he acquired via trade look horrible. He is there to make good trades and properly evaluate talent and when he gets it wrong it fair game to criticize him.

Finally, yes it’s totally reasonable to expect the coach and staff of the Canadiens to be qualified from day 1 and not learning on the job years later.

Hugo has had a pass for three years with no expectations or pressure. They are the ones who tossed out “in the mix” and they were out of it by the first week of November.

I don’t think anyone is expecting them to be a playoff team. I expect them to work hard most nights, see progression in the players that matter, and some semblance the team has an idea of to play the game. So far I’m not seeing that this year.

If they crap the bed again next year, are we all to use it’s a rebuild? Sooner or later the love in has to end and we need to see progression. Progression doesn’t necessarily mean winning early on in a rebuild.

 

[Draft]

So how they are losing, they have mailed in games. 3rd period (Pit) some guys quit, that is a problem. Even Evans stated afterwards maybe some guys quit. Getting bombed 1/4 of the schedule is a problem.

His acquisitions, it’s fair to say they are bad. Are people supposed to ignore that? All four guys he acquired via trade look horrible. He is there to make good trades and properly evaluate talent and when he gets it wrong it fair game to criticize him.

Finally, yes it’s totally reasonable to expect the coach and staff of the Canadiens to be qualified from day 1 and not learning on the job years later.

Hugo has had a pass for three years with no expectations or pressure. They are the ones who tossed out “in the mix” and they were out of it by the first week of November.

I don’t think anyone is expecting them to be a playoff team. I expect them to work hard most nights, see progression in the players that matter, and some semblance the team has an idea of to play the game. So far I’m not seeing that this year.

If they crap the bed again next year, are we all to use it’s a rebuild? Sooner or later the love in has to end and we need to see progression. Progression doesn’t necessarily mean winning early on in a rebuild.

The team is young and inconsistent. Small errors have compounded into big issues in most of our worst losses. Blowout losses aren't what anyone wants, but I'd be careful attributing it to some kind of systemic deficiency where effort/culture/character are concerned. I don't really see it when I'm watching them play and it would be way out of character for most guys on this roster.

You don't typically go from being a high-character, high-effort, gutsy team to a bunch of deadbeats from one year to the next. You can very easily go from being an almost-winning team to a definitely-losing team by not effectively replacing players in key roles during the offseason. The two big names I've seen this lack of effort claim attributed to are Slafkovsky and Dach - both young guys with injury trouble trying to take the next step and find consistency. The roster is worse, the losses are worse.

Nothing wrong with criticizing the young players that haven't panned out. They were gambles.

I think hiring a re-tread coach or GM would have given us a similar or worse result than what we're seeing now - especially considering who is and was available. This organization needed a culture change and a drastically different approach to roster management and development. We'll have a bette idea of how that's worked out once this group has had an opportunity to put more pieces in place.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Damn you lay it out very accurately

It’s almost as if three years is enough to judge a rebuild by….

 

[Habby4Life]

It’s almost as if three years is enough to judge a rebuild by….

Is Hugo’s past moves beyond reproach. At what point can a fan base criticize the direction or decisions, Yr 6, 7, 8?

It’s totally fair to criticize him for the acquisitions he has made. He gets paid to evaluate talent and if he brings in a dud he should be called out. You don’t have to be declaring the rebuild as a dud by stating his trade acquisitions suck. If the suck, the suck. So far Newhook, Dach, Barron aren’t exactly giving fans a lot to be excited about.

Like we are in a rebuild is the end all be all. OP was right, he has had it easy for the first three years, now expectations should start to increase. If the crap the bed next year, will the awnser be we are in a rebuild?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Is Hugo’s past moves beyond reproach. At what point can a fan base criticize the direction or decisions, Yr 6, 7, 8?

You can criticize the moves all you like. Saying he’s squandered the rebuild in year three is a laughably bad take.

It’s totally fair to criticize him for the acquisitions he has made. He gets paid to evaluate talent and if he brings in a dud he should be called out. You don’t have to be declaring the rebuild as a dud by stating his trade acquisitions suck.

By all means, criticize whatever you want. But be prepared for others to call you on it. That’s the way a message board works.

Like we are in a rebuild is the end all be all. OP was right, he has had it easy for the first three years, now expectations should start to increase.

By all means, scream at the wall.

The rebuild is going to take what it takes. And there will be speed bumps on the way. Dach, RB… there will be more injuries. More things that go wrong. It doesn’t change overnight.

Hutson was drafted three years ago and is just starting his career now. Most of the guys we’ve picked up aren’t even in the league yet. But we’re spinning our wheels? Okay…

This isn’t surprising. We all knew there’d be a bunch of ‘are we there yet’ type posts when we decided to rebuild. Some folks who screamed for a rebuild are now wondering why we haven’t won anything yet. It’s hilarious.

Yeah, this year’s disappointing. It sucks that we’ve had the injuries we have. You expect injuries but ours have been catastrophic. Most of us saw Dach as a blue chip and now he might have to be replaced… it is what it is.

In the grand scheme of things we’ve still got a pile of good young prospects coming. A lot of dead wood will be shed in the next couple of years too. We managed the cap really well - good enough to get paid to take Laine - and a silver lining is we’ll get another top ten this year.

By all means though, keep screaming about how our GM isn’t doing anything.

 

[Habby4Life]

You can criticize the moves all you like. Saying he’s squandered the rebuild in year three is a laughably bad take.

By all means, criticize whatever you want. But be prepared for others to call you on it. That’s the way a message board works.


By all means, scream at the wall.

The rebuild is going to take what it takes. And there will be speed bumps on the way. Dach, RB… there will be more injuries. More things that go wrong. It doesn’t change overnight.

Huston was drafted three years ago and is just starting his career now. Most of the guys we’ve picked up aren’t even in the league yet. But we’re spinning our wheels? Okay…

This isn’t surprising. We all knew there’d be a bunch of ‘are we there yet’ type posts when we decided to rebuild. Some folks who screamed for a rebuild are now wondering why we haven’t won anything yet. It’s hilarious.

Yeah, this year’s disappointing. It sucks that we’ve had the injuries we have. You expect injuries but ours have been catastrophic. Most of us saw Dach as a blue chip and now he might have to be replaced… it is what it is.

In the grand scheme of things we’ve still got a pile of good young prospects coming. A lot of dead wood will be shed in the next couple of years too. We managed the cap really well - good enough to get paid to take Laine - and a silver lining is we’ll get another top ten this year.

By all means though, keep screaming about how our GM isn’t doing anything.

Screaming he isn’t doing anything, yeah no. I don’t think he squandered the rebuild but I think it’s gotten off track and he needs to rethink and respond.

I mentioned early, I gave him credit for the Monahan deals, for drafting Lane, and for getting Math, Hage I will throw him in even though it’s too early to say. Demidov fell in his lap. Managing the cap, so far, but might question that if Slaf is current Slaf making 7m.

His NHL trades are poor. Dach, Newhook, and Barron just plain stink. They gambled Dach could be a 2c. He showed promise first year but he best results were playing wing with NS and CC. No evidence, not the slightest he is the awnser to 2c. That gamble is a failure.

We went with a three goalie tandem to protect losing Pri to then trading a solid veteran well like backup in Allen. Now we need a solid backup. I question their judgement evaluating current nhl guys.

On a lot of good prospects, they got a blue chip Demidov. The others Beck, DR, Hage no one knows what they will be or if they will even stick. Looks ok.

They entered the season so weak on the D right side, it’s laughable. Guys playing on the wrong side getting burned every night. That’s on Hugo.

Draft - they were unfortunate to finish last in a weak draft, not on him. Passing on Mich for DR is, not saying DR won’t turn out but for a team starving for offense they missed the boat. The rest we will see.

No one is saying he isn’t doing anything, myself and others are questioning some of the things done. Shit, this guy and rebuild is not so golden one can’t question some of the decisions or so far the outcomes.

Like I said before, he has had it easy, it’s time to increase expectations. Once again, if we are here next year, will the response be, its just a rebuild? Just like a rebuild where we expect incremental progress so should the expectations/pressure increase on the GM. First years, no one said a peep about pretty much anything.

Team has no identity at all, they did last year. Knuckles summed this situation up perfectly. This team of boys needs a lot more men. Let’s be honest, they sold hard this summer in the mix, and the fact is that was over 4 weeks ago.

Time will be the awnser but I am not as optimistic as many others on these boards.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Screaming he isn’t doing anything, yeah no.

I mentioned early, I gave him credit for the Monahan deals, for drafting Lane, and for getting Math, Hage I will throw him in even though it’s too early to say. Demidov fell in his lap. Managing the cap, so far, but might question that if Slaf is current Slaf making 7m.

Demidov didn’t fall in his lap. This was a planned rebuild. He sold off Monahan to fall in the standings. That was a planned play. Some luck involved? Sure. But that evens out, we didn’t get first overall for Cellebrini or Bedard for example…

His NHL trades are poor. Dach, Newhook, and Barron just plain stink.

Nah. Dach was a great trade that hasn’t worked out due to injuries. Barron was a worthy gamble that may or may not work out and we got a 2nd in that deal that we leveraged for Hage. Far too soon to write that off as a dumb trade.

Newhook? We didn’t give up much. We’ll wait on that one but it might wind up being inconsequential either way. Jury is still out.

Want to say he f***ed up? You can probably say it on Michkov. It’s early, we haven’t seen Rb yet but it’s unlikely he’ll be the star Mich will be.

Thing is, there WILL be mistakes. There will be injuries. Some of it will set us back… but he’s done a good job stockpiling talent and hopefully that will mitigate the errors. Hutson for example is a great start.

We went with a three goalie tandem to protect losing Pri to then trading a solid veteran well like backup in Allen. Now we need a solid backup. I question their judgement evaluating current nhl guys.

Primeau looked great last year. Crap this year. That’s what backup goalies are - unpredictable. I wouldn’t read anything into that.

On a lot of good prospects, they got a blue chip Demidov. The others Beck, DR, Hage no one knows what they will be or if they will even stick. Looks ok.

What are you expecting? You’re not getting a star player with every pick. And most of these guys aren’t even here yet. How can we even say Demidov is a star when he’s not even here yet?

They entered the season so weak on the D right side, it’s laughable. Guys playing on the wrong side getting burned every night. That’s on Hugo.

Okay, but keep in mind what the situation was. We didn’t know Hutson was going to be what he is. That’s why we kept Matheson. If we’d known Hutson was going to be a rick star we’d have moved him. And then RB got hurt…

You’re looking at this through a very narrow lens. It’s not just THIS year that matters. They tried Mailloux and he wasn’t ready. This year isn’t as important to mgmt as it is to you. It’s a long term play.

Draft - they were unfortunate to finish last in a weak draft, not on him. Passing on Mich for DR is, not saying DR won’t turn out but for a team starving for offense they missed the boat. The rest we will see.

No one is saying he isn’t doing anything, myself and others are questioning some of the things done. Shit, this guy and rebuild is not so golden one can’t question some of the decisions or so far the outcomes.

Not true. We just saw a poster talk about how he’s squandered the rebuild and you said he hit the nail on the head.

The rebuild is barely underway. We only have two drafted players who are in the lineup.

Like I said before, he has had it easy, it’s time to increase expectations. Once again, if we are here next year, will the response be, it’s just a rebuild? Just like a rebuild where we expect incremental progress so should the expectations/pressure increase on the GM. First years, no one said a peep about pretty much anything.

You can increase expectations all you want. It won’t change shit. Especially when the team has catastrophic injuries that happen beyond our control.

The rebuild is going to take what it takes. You can scream ‘are we there yet’ all you want, it won’t get the car there any faster.

 

[Habby4Life]

Demidov didn’t fall in his lap. This was a planned rebuild. He sold off Monahan to fall in the standings. That was a planned play. Some luck involved? Sure. But that evens out, we didn’t get first overall for Cellebrini or Bedard for example…

Nah. Dach was a great trade that hasn’t work out due to injuries. Barron was a worthy gamble that may or may not work out and we got a 2nd in that deal that we leveraged for Hage. Far too soon to write that off as a dumb trade.

Newhook? We didn’t give up much. We’ll wait on that one but it might wind up being inconsequential either way. Jury is still out.

Want to say he f***ed up? You can probably say it on Michkov. It’s early, we haven’t seen Rb yet but it’s unlikely he’ll be the star Mich will be.

Thing is, there WILL be mistakes. There will be injuries. Some of it will set us back… but he’s done a good job stockpiling talent and hopefully that will mitigate the errors. Hutson for example is a great start.

Primeau looked great last year. Crap this year. That’s what backup goalies are - unpredictable. I wouldn’t read anything into that.

What are you expecting? You’re not getting a star player with every pick. And most of these guys aren’t even here yet. How can we even say Denison is a star when he’s not even here yet?

Okay, but keep in mind what the situation was. We didn’t know Hutson was going to be what he is. That’s why we kept Matheson. If we’d known Hutson was going to be a rick star we’d have moved him. And then RB got hurt…

Not true. We just saw a poster talk about how he’s squandered the rebuild and you said he hit the nail on the head.

The rebuild is barely underway. We only have two drafted players who are in the lineup.

You can increase expectations all you want. It won’t change shit. Especially when the team has catastrophic injuries that happen beyond our control.

The rebuild is going to take what it takes. You can scream ‘are we there yet’ all you want, it won’t get the car there any faster.

Come on, Demidov fell in his lap, there is no way he should have gone 5th. They got lucky. There was no design to it.

Sorry his nhl trades have not been great, totally disagree. Especially Dach. Newhook, you just can’t say they didn’t give up much, oh well. They gave up a late first and a late 2nd which isn’t nothing. And yes, Newhook looks less than stellar.

Who said star player every pick, not me. I’m saying those folks who have all these prospects penciled in are kidding themselves. Even with Demidov this team needs a lot more skill and for our sake he better pan out. They aren’t going to draft their way to being a contender, he is going to have to make more nhl moves and they need to better than the former ones.

Yeah, I said he nailed cause for the most part he did. Pretty much everything he said was bang on. Squander, ok, too much. Off track, 100%

You can’t blame everything on injuries, that’s just an excuse. They had major injuries all through last year and this team battled all year. In fact, they had more. No Dach, Newhook was out for extended time, they traded Monahan, Savard missed 20. They went quite the stretch with Evans as 2c. Last year they gave it almost every night, can’t say that this year because for sure 25% there is no fight in the dog.

They went into the season with a garbage D core (as a whole - excluding Lane and Guhle) and it was foreseeable they would struggle.

Once again, you jump to the “are we all there yet” nonsense. No one thought this team would be there in year 3, only a fool would. I did expect a little structure to their game. a team that worked hard every night, guys progress even just a little.

You can’t tell me you didn’t either, you’re the one saying 85 points they are on pace for 68. This season is a failure.

Hugo better have a good summer because another shit show season like this, no one is going to buy the “it’s a rebuild” excuse. I don’t expect playoffs, I expect each year they are a little more competitive and play more meaningful games into the season.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Come on, Demidov fell in his lap, there is no way he should have gone 5th. They got lucky. There was no design to it.

He put himself in a position to draft high. It wasn’t all luck. You have to draft high to get elite guys. Some luck involved? Sure. But like I said that works both ways. We didn’t get Bedard or Cellibrini when we drafted first overall.

If you draft high for long enough, you’ll accumulate talent. That’s how it works.

Sorry his nhl trades have not been great, totally disagree. Especially Dach. Newhook, you just can’t say they didn’t give up much, oh well. They gave up a late first and a late 2nd which isn’t nothing. And yes, Newhook looks less than stellar.

You’re free to disagree. But it’s too early to say on two of those trades and Dach got hurt.

Your’re telling me you wouldn’t give up Lek for Barron and the pick that we leveraged for Hage? I mean, that’s crazy. Lek was going to be wasted here. Why hang onto him? Best case he plays wel for us and then we’d have maybe gone up in the standings. Makes no sense. I’d make that trade over again for sure.

Who said star player every pick, not me. I’m saying those folks who have all these prospects penciled in are kidding themselves. Even with Demidov this team needs a lot more skill and for our sake he better pan out. They aren’t going to draft their way to being a contender, he is going to have to make more nhl moves and they need to better than the former ones.

You have gone on and on about how we’re only coming out of this with Demidov and Huston. It’s a very myopic way of looking at things. Especially so when most of these guys aren’t even in the league yet.

Yeah, I said he nailed cause for the most part he did. Pretty much everything he said was bang on. Squander, ok, too much. Off track, 100%

He was laughably wrong. He’s been screaming since day one on Slaf and almost got laughed off the board.

Nobody can know where things are going. It’s too early to say. It’s one thing to be skeptical. Another thing to be critical. That’s all well and good. But to declare it squandered? Over? Laughable. Like I said, Michkov will likely be a big miss.

But say that the GM has squandered the rebuild at this stage is ridiculous in the extreme. This rebuild may well not work but to call it now is nonsense and right in line with his usual schtick.

Like I said, maybe the rebuild will fail. Entirely possible. But to call it a failure now is a joke.

You can’t blame everything on injuries, that’s just an excuse. They had major injuries all through last year and this team battled all year. In fact, they had more. No Dach, Newhook was out for extended time, they traded Monahan, Savard missed 20. They went quite the stretch with Evans as 2c. Last year they gave it almost every night, can’t say that this year because for sure 25% there is no fight in the dog.

I don’t blame everything on injuries. I didn’t expect is to be good to begin with. I expected us to improve. And the basis for this belief was Hutson and Dach joining the team. I told you this over and and over.

Even if Dach had worked out though, our D is super green and I didn’t see us making the playoffs.

They went into the season with a garbage D core (as a whole - excluding Lane and Guhle) and it was foreseeable they would struggle.

Sure did. And?

Once again, you jump to the “are we all there yet” nonsense. No one thought this team would be there in year 3, only a fool would. I did expect a little structure to their game. a team that worked hard every night, guys progress even just a little.

Then stop running around saying that the team only has Huston and Demidov going for it…

You can’t tell me you didn’t either, you’re the one saying 85 points they are on pace for 68. This season is a failure.

It’s a disappointment for sure. But, we’ll get another high pick. As I told you in the summer, even if things don’t go as planned this season isn’t that important. That’s why I wanted us to go with Roy on the 2nd. I’d rather have given ice to a younger player and let him grow into the role.

You seem to think this season is the be all end all of things. It isn’t.

Hugo better have a good summer because another shit show season like this, no one is going to but the “it’s a rebuild” excuse.

Right… I heard the same thing from you last summer. Here we are.

The rebuild is going to take what it takes. Keep screaming ‘we better they there faster’ all you want. It’s not going to change shit.

 

[Habby4Life]

He put himself in a position to draft high. It wasn’t all luck. You have to draft high to get elite guys. Some luck involved? Sure. But like I said that works both ways. We didn’t get Bedard or Cellibrini when we drafted first overall.

If you draft high for long enough, you’ll accumulate talent. That’s how it works.

You’re free to disagree. But it’s too early to say on two of those trades and Dach got hurt.

Your’re telling me you wouldn’t give up Lek for Barron and the pick that we leveraged for Hage? I mean, that’s crazy. Lek was going to be wasted here. Why hang onto him? Best case he plays wel for us and then we’d have maybe gone up in the standings. Makes no sense. I’d make that trade over again for sure.

You have gone on and on about how we’re only coming out of this with Demidov and Huston. It’s a very myopic way of looking at things. Especially so when most of these guys aren’t even in the league yet. Outside of Demi, Lane, and DR (I think he will be a good d) I’m ho-hum on the rest.

He was laughably wrong. He’s been screaming since day one on Slaf and almost got laughed off the board.

Nobody can know where things are going. It’s too early to say. It’s one thing to be skeptical. Another thing to be critical. That’s all well and good. Like I said, Michkov will likely be a big miss.

But say that the GM has squandered the rebuild at this stage is ridiculous in the extreme. This rebuild may well not work but to call it low is nonsense and right in line with his usual schtick.

I don’t blame everything on injuries. I didn’t expect is to be good to begin with. I expected us to improve. And the basis for this belief was Hutson and Dach joining the team. I told you this over and and over.

Even if Dach had worked out though, our D is super green and I didn’t see us making the playoffs.

Sure did. And?

Then stop running stoking saying that the team only has Huston and Demidov going for it…

It’s a disappointment for sure. But, we’ll get another high pick. As I told you in the summer, even if things don’t go as planned this season isn’t that important. That’s why I wanted us to go with Roy on the 2nd. I’d rather have given ice to a younger player and let him grow into the role.

You seem to think this season is the be all end all of things. It isn’t.

Right… I heard the same thing for you last summer. Here we are.

The rebuild is going to take what it takes. Keep screaming ‘we better they there faster’ all you want. It’s not going to change shit.

We are back to the, are we there yet? sorry but you clearly aren’t comprehending what I posted. I made it pretty clear I never expected to be there yet, and outlined what I did expect but you can’t seem to hear that.

Want to talk last summer, I remember going round and round with you over Dach Newhook Roy. I remember arguing Laine was needed not just depth, and I remember getting lite when I said they would be lucky to get 76pts.

Yeah, they went into the year with a shit D and are getting scorched. That’s on him, don’t tell me for one sec Hugo thought they would be where they are or are at all happy about it. Remember “in the mix”, I do, it lasted about 30days. And a significant factor is there shit D core. It failed to hold up and poof there goes in the mix. Hugo should take criticism for that.

Once again, read my post. I said they have a blue chip Demidov, and all the others are ok, some better than others but who knows if they will pan out. They need to supplement with better trades and FA, the can’t just draft thier way there. I like Demi, Lane, and DR (think it was a mistake but think he will be a good d) but I am Meh on the rest.

Once again, never said this season is be all, that’s your words not mine. I was pretty clear about this season and its meaning.

And yes, it’s perfectly fine to be critical. Makes zero sense why one can’t or shouldn’t be. It’s part of having expectations and holding them accountable.

You’re all in on the Hugo train, I’m not, I’ll leave it at agree to disagree.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We are back to the, are we there yet? sorry but you clearly aren’t comprehending what I posted. I made it pretty clear I never expected to be there yet, and outlined what I did expect but you can’t seem to hear that.

This is what you posted:

“Hugo better have a good summer because another shit show season like this, no one is going to but the “it’s a rebuild” excuse.”

That is an ‘are we there yet’ post.

No we’re not. And again, scream all you wish, we’re still a ways off.

Want to talk last summer, I remember going round and round with you over Dach Newhook Roy. I remember arguing Laine was needed not just depth, and I remember getting lite when I said they would be lucky to get 76pts.

Yep. I remember it well. I thought Dach would be healthy and probably good for 60 points. I thought he’d be able to make a good 2nd line with Roy and Newhook. I was wrong. Dach doesn’t look anything like he used to. Roy and Newhook aren’t guys who will be able to drive a line on their own. Dach was the key. I said this over and over.

Yeah, they went into the year with a shit D and are getting scorched. That’s on him, don’t tell me for one sec Hugo thought they would be where they are or are at all happy about it. Remember “in the mix”, I do, it lasted about 30days. And a significant factor is there shit D core. It failed to hold up and poof there goes in the mix. Hugo should take criticism for that.

We knew they were shit. This is what I tried to tell you. This season isn’t as important to Hugo as it is to you. They aren’t looking at things in the short term. You are.

They knew the D was bad. They wanted gave Mailloux a chance and he very clearly isn’t ready. They couldn’t trade Matheson because they didn’t know if Hutson would be ready. And they were likely counting on RB joining later in the year.

They knew it was shit. I knew it was shit. Everyone knew it would be shit. That’s why we were predicting 85 points and not a playoff spot.

Once again, read my post. I said they have a blue chip Demidov, and all the others are ok, some better than others but who knows if they will pan out. They need to supplement with better trades and FA, the can’t just draft thier way there.

You have consistently blown off the rebuild. I had to remind you of the depth of players we have coming up. Guys like Fowler, Hage and Beck. Solid prospects.

Are they all superstars? Of course not. But to say that only those two players are anything special is nonsense.

You have to look at things holistically. The volume and quality of the players coming up is really good in comparison to other teams. So much so that we were ranked number one recently.

One poll obviously is not definitive. I won’t argue we’re number one. But we have a really good group coming up.

Once again, never said this season is be all, that’s your words not mine. I was pretty clear about this season and its meaning overall.

But you keep saying things like “he better ice a better team or else…” it’s the same thing.

You’re all in on the Hugo train, I’m not, I’ll leave it at agree to disagree.

I’m all in on rebuilding. Not a guarantee. No promises that it will work.

But I can promise you this. The old way was not going to work. The quick fixes, low draft selections, lack of development is why we are where we are.

By all means rip him for his mistakes. Disagree on certain players. Say we f***ed up on Michkov… but if you’re going to sit there and say that the rebuild sucks and we’ve got almost nothing to show for it, I’m going to disagree with you.

More than that, if you’re going to scream this roster sucks, then I’m going to call you on it when you blame the coach for everything.

 

[Habby4Life]

This is what you posted:

“Hugo better have a good summer because another shit show season like this, no one is going to but the “it’s a rebuild” excuse.”

That is an ‘are we there yet’ post.

No we’re not. And again, scream all you wish, we’re still a ways off.

Yep. I remember it well. I thought Dach would be healthy and probably good for 60 points. I thought he’d be able to make a good 2nd line with Roy and Newhook. I was wrong. Dach doesn’t look anything like he used to. Roy and Newhook aren’t guys who will be able to drive a line on their own. Dach was the key. I said this over and over.

We knew they were shit. This is what I tried to tell you. This season isn’t as important to Hugo as it is to you. They aren’t looking at things in the short term. You are.

They knew the D was bad. They wanted gave Mailloux a chance and he very clearly isn’t ready. They couldn’t trade Matheson because they didn’t know if Hutson would be ready. And they were likely counting on RB joining later in the year.

They knew it was shit. I knew it was shit. Everyone knew it would be shit. That’s why we were predicting 85 points and not a playoff spot.

You have consistently blown off the rebuild. I had to remind you of the depth of players we have coming up. Guys like Fowler, Hage and Beck. Solid prospects.

Are they all superstars? Of course not. But to say that only those two players are anything special is nonsense.

You have to look at things holistically. The volume and quality of the players coming up is really good in comparison to other teams. So much so that we were ranked number one recently.

One poll obviously is not definitive. I won’t argue we’re number one. But we have a really good group coming up.

But you keep saying things like “he better ice a better team or else…” it’s the same thing.

I’m all in on rebuilding. Not a guarantee. No promises that it will work.

But I can promise you this. The old way was not going to work. The quick fixes, low draft selections, lack of development is why we are where we are.

By all means rip him for his mistakes. Disagree on certain players. Say we f***ed up on Michkov… but if you’re going to sit there and see that the rebuild sucks and we’ve got almost nothing to show for it, I’m going to disagree with you.

More than that, if you’re going to scream this roster sucks, then I’m going to call you on it when you blame the coach for everything.

First, saying he better have a good summer has nothing to do with are we there yet, not one bit. I said it before, he has to make significant improvements like improve the D, adjusting the bottom six, and hopefully finding a 2c.

If they have another year like this it won’t be acceptable, period. I expect progress not playoffs but being more competitive longer into the season. I don’t know how clearer I can make it. You just don’t want to hear it.

FYI - this roster as it is, most definitely sucks, it sucks bad.

Blame the coach for everything? I said that?? I said he is a below than average coach, the whole staff is. Any other guy would be long gone by now. Shit he is at Dom level.

He didn’t build the roster, that’s Hugo. How he is using the roster is on him. The guy is learning on the job and it shows. They come out not ready to play quite often, they are horrendous in their own end, he holds pretty much no one accountable other than Wifi and Pezz, the other night some guys quite (even Evans said some guys might have quite). All of that is on him.

You like him, I think the coaching staff, all three are weak, so be it.

I have no problem with you calling me out, go ahead, history has shown my batting average getting called out by you is pretty darn good.

As far as this discussion is concerned, I said my piece, I stand by it. You have your opinion, I respect that, mine definitely differs and I will end it by saying Agree to Disagree.

Have a good night.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

First, saying he better have a good summer has nothing to do with are we there yet, not one bit. I said it before, he has to make significant improvements like improve the D, adjusting the bottom six, and hopefully finding a 2c.

Yeah it does…

If they have another year like this it won’t be acceptable, period. I expect progress not playoffs but being more competitive longer into the season. I don’t know how clearer I can make it. You just don’t want to hear it.

And I’m telling you it doesn’t matter what you expect. Rebuilds go at their own schedule. Sometimes it goes quicker than you think and sometimes not. Sometimes teams try for quick fixes and they backfire.

This is going to take a while. Especially on the backend.

FYI - this roster as it is, most definitely sucks, it sucks bad.

Blame the coach for everything? I said that?? I said he is a below than average coach, the whole staff is. Any other guy would be long gone by now. Shit he is at Dom level.

If the roster ‘sucks bad’ then why are you screaming at the coach?

He didn’t build the roster, that’s Hugo. How he is using the roster is on him. The guy is learning on the job and it shows. They come out not ready to play quite often, they are horrendous in their own end, he holds pretty much no one accountable other than Wifi and Pezz, the other night some guys quite (even Evans said some guys might have quite). All of that is on him.

He has a roster of guys who don’t play on the right side D except for Savard who’s a journeyman 3rd pairing guy. He’s got Matheson who doesn’t know how to play D on his left side, let alone his right… And he’s got a broken second line.

Yeah, the roster’s weak. It was going to be weak even with a healthy Dach. So why is this surprising given how Dach has sucked? Why would that be the coach’s fault?

You like him, I think the coaching staff, all three are weak, so be it.

Every coach has a shelf life. MSL might be there soon. Even when it isn’t the coach’s fault that’s how it goes.

But it’s insane to hear how you think the roster ‘sucks’ and then blast the coach for not ‘being prepared.’

I have no problem with you calling me out, go ahead, history has shown my batting average getting called out by you is pretty darn good.

On Dach? Yep. I was wrong. And I’ll be wrong again. When you’re forward looking that’s how it goes.

But when you’re backward looking (like our debates on CC for example) then your batting average isn’t as good as you may remember.

None of us can know if this rebuild will be successful. I won’t sit here and say we’re on the road to a cup. But if we judge it by today, we’ve got a really well regarded, deep prospect pool. That’s just a fact. Does that mean it’ll pan out? We can’t know this.

As far as this discussion is concerned, I said my piece, I stand by it. You have your opinion, I respect that, mine definitely differs and I will end it by saying Agree to Disagree.

Have a good night.

This is like the 4th time you’ve said you’re walking away…

 

[The Real Timo]

I mean, it's a pretty uncharitable take though -- it doesn't allow much room for natural variability. It depends on your perspective and bias. Speaking for myself, I honest-to-God want them to succeed and I totally accepted and announced here about being wrong about a "quick" rebuild: we simply didn't have the dogs to quickly rebuild.

But now I feel my original instincts might've been right: the losing culture that has been festering is devastating to see and I'm sure it's not worth whatever upside there is with getting pick 5 over pick 10 in one season's entry draft.

 

[HuGort]

The lack of depth on rd is a good point. MSL looks depressed after every loss.

Marty was good coach to start rebuild. But third year in, its time for more experienced coach to take over.

 

[Scriptor]

The keys going forward:

1) Whether Hughes ends a way to add a quality, stop gap, veteran RHD with an actual two-way impact or not.

2) How Dach pans out by the end of next season (need more time to see how this unravels). Finding an overpaid stop-gap at C may be the solution short term to allow the future top-6 wingers to keep improving (Caufield, Slafkovsky, Laine and Demidov next season) while Dach gets less pressure, along with beck and while Hage continues to progress in the minors.

3) Finding a capable backup while Fowler gets the time required to mature.

So, a top-6 C, a top-4 RHD and a backup G.

Team won't become a powerhouse overnight, but they will stay in the mix for a win on most nights and the young players will be able to develop in a saner environment.

By the time the young players make a case for a bigger role, the stop-gap veterans will be on their way out.

Three years would be ideal for a stop-gap C and a veteran RHD. Even overpaid stop-gaps would work. Hutson and Laine would need to see some coin, but the other youngsters tahat have already demonstrated good upside are already signed long term (Suzuki, Caufield, Slafkovsky, Guhle) and Demidov looks like he will be on a three-year ELC.

The Cap is still rising meteorically and big money is coming off the books as a total over 11M with Dvorak, Armia and Savard likely gone this year.

Going forward, Montembeault is not signing for more money than he is currently earning as a backup and Fowler will join the team in a few years as a cheap 1A, 1B Goalie if we are lucky.

The mooney saved on the G position will be instrumental in extending players like Laine, and/or signing potential stars like Demidov and Hutson to costly but relatively friendly Cap hits with long term contracts for their 2nd NHL deals.