Coaching is a serious problem.

[ReHabs]

Damn you lay it out very accurately

I mean, it's a pretty uncharitable take though -- it doesn't allow much room for natural variability. It depends on your perspective and bias. Speaking for myself, I honest-to-God want them to succeed and I totally accepted and announced here about being wrong about a "quick" rebuild: we simply didn't have the dogs to quickly rebuild.

But now I feel my original instincts might've been right: the losing culture that has been festering is devastating to see and I'm sure it's not worth whatever upside there is with getting pick 5 over pick 10 in one season's entry draft.

 

[nhlfan9191]

An uncharitable take would be that Hughes started with a great set-up: Zero expectations of winning for years to come, a loooooong leash, a team already in the pits with nowhere to go but up + a high value draft pick, a team coming off an unlikely playoff run with players at peak value (Lehkonen, Chiarot), two LTIRetired players who, instead of giving declining performances, give zero cap hit and disappear (Weber, Price), and the last bits of the cap crunch to sell cap space at a premium (Monahan).

Basically he had a clear slate and the whole fanbase + media on his side and zero pressure. It's sad to see that he has squandered it, because we had so much enthusiasm coming into this season that even they said "the expectation is that we'll be in the mix". I understand some things are not in his control but he's done nothing to stop the bleeding and his coach that he prematurely extended has been big-time exposed.

They started with nothing. Had average assets to sell with the former core retired/LTIR’ed and unstable to sell. The Toffoli’s/Lehkonen’s brought back little. They also had 6 years of Gallagher, 4 years of Armia, etc ontop of cap managing the LTIR contracts if they wanted compete. What are you talking about? Lol Suzuki is the only player that can be considered a core piece inherited right now even with draft selection.

 

[ReHabs]

They started with nothing.

Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle -> nothing

Had average assets to sell with the current core retired/LTIR’ed. the Toffoli’s/Lehkonen’s brought back little to sell.

He got too little for them, yes. In fact, he got taken for a ride on both trades.

Petry trade was good but he's hanging on to Matheson a bit too preciously for a tankmaster.

They also had 6 years of Gallagher, 4 years of Armia, etc ontop of cap managing the LTIR contracts if they wanted compete. What are you talking about?

Habs didn't need to or have any interest in using all available cap space. Gallagher's awful cap hit ended up immaterial because they didn't want to compete and could not compete with the rosters Hughes put together (because he was trying to lose).

What are you talking about? I mean, I didn't say they started with a bounty of treasure so you're barking up the wrong tree here. Hughes had a mandate to lose and he still does: no one's turned on him. He's losing like a champion loser. This is his job. He preferred Reinbacher to Michkov; and it might turn out to be the right move because with Michkov on the roster we wouldn't be losing as much this season. This is a bonus losing season, it mustn't be squandered.

I have my doubts about this lose every season strategy but I'm clearly in the minority here. Losing is good in Montreal, it's the culture we want going forward.

Lol Suzuki is the only player that can be considered a core piece right now even with draft selection.

I thought Suzuki was nothing

 

[nhlfan9191]

Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle -> nothing

He got too little for them, yes. In fact, he got taken for a ride on both trades.

Petry trade was good but he's hanging on to Matheson a bit too preciously for a tankmaster.

Habs didn't need to or have any interest in using all available cap space. Gallagher's awful cap hit ended up immaterial because they didn't want to compete and could not compete with the rosters Hughes put together (because he was trying to lose).

What are you talking about?

I thought Suzuki was nothing

You’re looking threw blinders so distorted it’s hard to take serious. You’re drilling decisions with hindsight and zero information. I defended you during the Slafkovsky rookie season, you’re starting to annoy me now with negativity.

 

[ReHabs]

You’re looking threw blinders so distorted it’s hard to take serious. You’re drilling decisions with hindsight and zero information. I defended you during the Slafkovsky rookie season, you’re starting to annoy me now with negativity.

I'm plenty annoyed by fake enthusiasm and unearned positivity while my dear Montreal Canadiens lose and lose and lose and the young players play worse than I've ever seen them play.

We lost 9-2 the other day ffs and it barely registered. Hughes has the keys to the city.

 

[Habby4Life]

An uncharitable take would be that Hughes started with a great set-up: Zero expectations of winning for years to come, a loooooong leash, a team already in the pits with nowhere to go but up + a high value draft pick, a team coming off an unlikely playoff run with players at peak value (Lehkonen, Chiarot), two LTIRetired players who, instead of giving declining performances, give zero cap hit and disappear (Weber, Price), and the last bits of the cap crunch to sell cap space at a premium (Monahan).

Basically he had a clear slate and the whole fanbase + media on his side and zero pressure. It's sad to see that he has squandered it, because we had so much enthusiasm coming into this season that even they said "the expectation is that we'll be in the mix". I understand some things are not in his control but he's done nothing to stop the bleeding and his coach that he prematurely extended has been big-time exposed.

You hit the nail on the head!

 

[Draft]

An uncharitable take would be that Hughes started with a great set-up: Zero expectations of winning for years to come, a loooooong leash, a team already in the pits with nowhere to go but up + a high value draft pick, a team coming off an unlikely playoff run with players at peak value (Lehkonen, Chiarot), two LTIRetired players who, instead of giving declining performances, give zero cap hit and disappear (Weber, Price), and the last bits of the cap crunch to sell cap space at a premium (Monahan).

Basically he had a clear slate and the whole fanbase + media on his side and zero pressure. It's sad to see that he has squandered it, because we had so much enthusiasm coming into this season that even they said "the expectation is that we'll be in the mix". I understand some things are not in his control but he's done nothing to stop the bleeding and his coach that he prematurely extended has been big-time exposed.

Meh. Mostly revisionist or grossly biased.

- You and many others are expecting wins in Hughes’ third season with almost none of what we’ve accumulated through the rebuild actually in the NHL… so that comment doesn’t fit. You can say “but it’s about how they’re losing” but I think that’s mostly a cop-out.
- A high pick in one of the weakest drafts this millennia. I like Slaf, but he’s a ways from Bedard/Celebrini.
- There’s no way to spin the massive Price and Weber LTIR contracts as a positive thing to inherit, that’s just stupid.
- He created the cap space that’s allowed him to make additional deals. He did not inherit a well-managed cap.

Dach/Newhook/Barron aren’t working out. Those are valid criticisms that you don’t need to be cartoonishly pessimistic to make. Most of the gambles Hughes took to accelerate the rebuild haven’t worked out (so far) and we would have needed all of them to hit to be competitive.

If we approached the rebuild with the understanding that most/all of these moves for prospects have been risks rather than certainties, the direction of the team might be a little clearer.

Historically speaking, if we were the absolute best drafting and developing team in the NHL, we could expect to have around 30% of our draft picks become NHL players (just regulars, not necessarily special). Just below 24% would still have us in the top-10 across the league. The prospects we’ve acquired came with a bit more certainty but with more baggage too. All of them appear to be NHL players, none of them appear to be elite. Acquiring high-upside young players has worked for us as a way to create depth in the organization, it hasn’t produced elite talent. IMO, this is a disappointment rather than a management failure.

I think it’s unreasonable to expect this team/coach to be competitive at this point. There are too many holes, not enough experience, and too few good players on the roster. We’ve had next to no capacity to add UFAs or reap the rewards of our high picks. Those next steps come once we start integrating and establishing high-end talent like Slafkovsky, Hutson, Demidov, Reinbacher, etc. alongside our existing core. The success of the rebuild will be decided by the moves that Hughes/Gorton make to fill needs around this group. I think assessing that happens as early as this offseason, but it’s absolutely not relevant this season.

You hit the nail on the head!

Everything looks like a nail when all you have is a hammer.

 

[TennisMenace]

You hit the nail on the head!

I can’t believe I’m saying this now because things have changed so much this season, but I now can say I have no confidence in people making decisions who have power. That means our GM and our HC. Acquiring Dach, Reinbacher, and Newhook all look to be huge mistakes that is now costing us dearly.

But what is worse I’m afraid is the confidence they have put in MSL who according to his coaching resume has shown nothing positive at all……and is getting worse if this year continues as is.

I feel dirty jumping ship 1/4 of the way in. Sigh…..TM

 

[Habby4Life]

I can’t believe I’m saying this now because things have changed so much this season, but I now can say I have no confidence in people making decisions who have power. That means our GM and our HC. Acquiring Dach, Reinbacher, and Newhook all look to be huge mistakes that is now costing us dearly.

But what is worse I’m afraid is the confidence they have put in MSL who according to his coaching resume has shown nothing positive at all……and is getting worse if this year continues as is.

I feel dirty jumping ship 1/4 of the way in. Sigh…..TM

Not jumping ship just pointing out issues instead blindly following. Hugo has had it easy for 3 yrs, just folks blindly following and pats on the back.

Hugo is worthy of criticism, and imo he is just an average GM.

 

[Habby4Life]

Meh. Mostly revisionist or grossly biased.

- You and many others are expecting wins in Hughes’ third season with almost none of what we’ve accumulated through the rebuild actually in the NHL… so that comment doesn’t fit. You can say “but it’s about how they’re losing” but I think that’s mostly a cop-out.
- A high pick in one of the weakest drafts this millennia. I like Slaf, but he’s a ways from Bedard/Celebrini.
- There’s no way to spin the massive Price and Weber LTIR contracts as a positive thing to inherit, that’s just stupid.
- He created the cap space that’s allowed him to make additional deals. He did not inherit a well-managed cap.

Dach/Newhook/Barron aren’t working out. Those are valid criticisms that you don’t need to be cartoonishly pessimistic to make. Most of the gambles Hughes took to accelerate the rebuild haven’t worked out (so far) and we would have needed all of them to hit to be competitive.

If we approached the rebuild with the understanding that most/all of these moves for prospects have been risks rather than certainties, the direction of the team might be a little clearer.

Historically speaking, if we were the absolute best drafting and developing team in the NHL, we could expect to have around 30% of our draft picks become NHL players (just regulars, not necessarily special). Just below 24% would still have us in the top-10 across the league. The prospects we’ve acquired came with a bit more certainty but with more baggage too. All of them appear to be NHL players, none of them appear to be elite. Acquiring high-upside young players has worked for us as a way to create depth in the organization, it hasn’t produced elite talent. IMO, this is a disappointment rather than a management failure.

I think it’s unreasonable to expect this team/coach to be competitive at this point. There are too many holes, not enough experience, and too few good players on the roster. We’ve had next to no capacity to add UFAs or reap the rewards of our high picks. Those next steps come once we start integrating and establishing high-end talent like Slafkovsky, Hutson, Demidov, Reinbacher, etc. alongside our existing core. The success of the rebuild will be decided by the moves that Hughes/Gorton make to fill needs around this group. I think assessing that happens as early as this offseason, but it’s absolutely not relevant this season.



Everything looks like a nail when all you have is a hammer.

So how they are losing, they have mailed in games. 3rd period (Pit) some guys quit, that is a problem. Even Evans stated afterwards maybe some guys quit. Getting bombed 1/4 of the schedule is a problem.

His acquisitions, it’s fair to say they are bad. Are people supposed to ignore that? All four guys he acquired via trade look horrible. He is there to make good trades and properly evaluate talent and when he gets it wrong it fair game to criticize him.

Finally, yes it’s totally reasonable to expect the coach and staff of the Canadiens to be qualified from day 1 and not learning on the job years later.

Hugo has had a pass for three years with no expectations or pressure. They are the ones who tossed out “in the mix” and they were out of it by the first week of November.

I don’t think anyone is expecting them to be a playoff team. I expect them to work hard most nights, see progression in the players that matter, and some semblance the team has an idea of to play the game. So far I’m not seeing that this year.

If they crap the bed again next year, are we all to use it’s a rebuild? Sooner or later the love in has to end and we need to see progression. Progression doesn’t necessarily mean winning early on in a rebuild.

 

[Draft]

So how they are losing, they have mailed in games. 3rd period (Pit) some guys quit, that is a problem. Even Evans stated afterwards maybe some guys quit. Getting bombed 1/4 of the schedule is a problem.

His acquisitions, it’s fair to say they are bad. Are people supposed to ignore that? All four guys he acquired via trade look horrible. He is there to make good trades and properly evaluate talent and when he gets it wrong it fair game to criticize him.

Finally, yes it’s totally reasonable to expect the coach and staff of the Canadiens to be qualified from day 1 and not learning on the job years later.

Hugo has had a pass for three years with no expectations or pressure. They are the ones who tossed out “in the mix” and they were out of it by the first week of November.

I don’t think anyone is expecting them to be a playoff team. I expect them to work hard most nights, see progression in the players that matter, and some semblance the team has an idea of to play the game. So far I’m not seeing that this year.

If they crap the bed again next year, are we all to use it’s a rebuild? Sooner or later the love in has to end and we need to see progression. Progression doesn’t necessarily mean winning early on in a rebuild.

The team is young and inconsistent. Small errors have compounded into big issues in most of our worst losses. Blowout losses aren't what anyone wants, but I'd be careful attributing it to some kind of systemic deficiency where effort/culture/character are concerned. I don't really see it when I'm watching them play and it would be way out of character for most guys on this roster.

You don't typically go from being a high-character, high-effort, gutsy team to a bunch of deadbeats from one year to the next. You can very easily go from being an almost-winning team to a definitely-losing team by not effectively replacing players in key roles during the offseason. The two big names I've seen this lack of effort claim attributed to are Slafkovsky and Dach - both young guys with injury trouble trying to take the next step and find consistency. The roster is worse, the losses are worse.

Nothing wrong with criticizing the young players that haven't panned out. They were gambles.

I think hiring a re-tread coach or GM would have given us a similar or worse result than what we're seeing now - especially considering who is and was available. This organization needed a culture change and a drastically different approach to roster management and development. We'll have a bette idea of how that's worked out once this group has had an opportunity to put more pieces in place.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Damn you lay it out very accurately

It’s almost as if three years is enough to judge a rebuild by….

 

[Habby4Life]

It’s almost as if three years is enough to judge a rebuild by….

Is Hugo’s past moves beyond reproach. At what point can a fan base criticize the direction or decisions, Yr 6, 7, 8?

It’s totally fair to criticize him for the acquisitions he has made. He gets paid to evaluate talent and if he brings in a dud he should be called out. You don’t have to be declaring the rebuild as a dud by stating his trade acquisitions suck. If the suck, the suck. So far Newhook, Dach, Barron aren’t exactly giving fans a lot to be excited about.

Like we are in a rebuild is the end all be all. OP was right, he has had it easy for the first three years, now expectations should start to increase.