Coaching is a serious problem.

[Hannibal]

I think the bitching about the hire is a bit much.

What were we to do, hire Vigneault and have done Therrien, Julien and Vigneault TWICE? We don't need to go down that road.

Marty has done a better job developing youth than any coach we've had in a long time, so in ways he was the right hire. The experiment now is to see if he can transition from being a developmental coach to one who can instill a culture of accountability, systems, etc. that transforms a team into one capable of winning.

Right now he is failing that test because his accountability doesn't apply to the veterans who are playing terribly and making things hurt. We have so many young players in the lineup that we can't have Xhekaj throwing a pizza in the middle and then Dvorak doing it the next game and doubling down on it later. Xhekaj is learning and growing, Dvorak is a veteran. He should be making the simple and effective play to keep things afloat while the kids have their ups and downs.

But often times Armia, Dvorak, Matheson and Savard are the worst players on the ice. None of them are seeing a decrease in duties, threatened to be scratched, benched, etc.

And he's also just doubling down on his systems that aren't working. If they can't execute a hybrid system right now, SIMPLIFY and ADD to the simplified system. They aren't going to get better at your system if at the end of the night they've given up 4+ goals again.

What about the teacher’s pet Struble? He’s atrocious. 10 minutes of play, -2. When will marty single him out? The real teacher’s pet. The good boston student guy.

 

[Intangir]

I ike MSL but the recent performances have been disheartening. We are LESS competitive these days than when he first took over.

MSL's system isn't good, that we already knew, but that doesn't explain how much we suck defensively these days.

Maybe changing from a predominant man-to-man defense to more of an hybrid is a bit of an adaptation for our players and we're seeing the signs of that, and/or perhaps our players have started drowning MSL out and are ready/pining for a change.

In a rebuilding team, where winning isn't the main focus, there are a couple elements that start to have a lot of importance for an NHL head coach; instituting a good team culture/locker room, being a good media personality to keep fans engaged, keeping the players engaged and displaying good work ethic, developing young players, and trying to not lose too many games to avoid vicious circles.

There are more elements than those, but I feel that those 5 would be the main criterions to evaluate a rebuilding coach on.

And MSL gets a "A+" on the first 2, the locker room culture and the media. He also gets a pretty good grade on the "work ethic" segment although not as flawless as the first two.

Where problems start to arise in MSL's case are the last 2 criterions, developing players and not losing too many games to avoid demoralizing everyone.

Winning, or lack thereof, is obvious and weighs heavily on MSL's "report card".

And if we look a bit more closely and try to see which players developed under MSL and/or which stalled or actually regressed, we quickly come to a conclusion.

There are only two young prospects that I can say showed more than pedestrian progression during MSL's coaching tenure; Caufield and Slafkovsky. But those two are blue-chippers and it is quite probable that they would have developed for basically any NHL coach if given enough opportunity.

Every other prospect that came up for MSL has failed to show a significant progression in the close to 3 season since he took over. Some have developed slightly (Guhle), others have stalled (Xhekaj, Harris, Barron), some have regressed (Ylonen), but the overall picture is far from rosy.

At some point, if you fail to coach your team to at least a respectable record after 3 years, don't really help your players develop much or at least show signs of such, as well as slowly losing TV viewership over time and eroding fan patience with putrid performances in the last couple games (when actually trying to be a bit more competitive), there comes a time when your shelf life as a coach for a certain team starts to come to an end.

And I think that time is now for MSL.

Not that any replacement of his would fare that much better I think. Even were he highly-competent, a replacement for MSL would need a long time to straighten-out the systems issue and getting the players to buy-in and learn it, time which he won't have during the season.

 

[le_sean]

I'm sure a dinosaur coach that plays Gallagher on the first line and bench Hutson for his defensive mistake would have been better for the development of the core. I mean just look at the line up, second youngest in the league, Heineman is playing on the first line, and the d corp is filled with young players, knowing it takes longer at this position to get steady play from them. Tf are you guys expecting? Effort? Give me a break, how do you mesure this metrics? System? St.Louis clearly has a long term vision for this team and the system he tries to implement, yes, might be harder than what guys like Therrien and Julien might go for. I rather these guys try to learn how to play as a unit with a modern style of play and growth in it until they actually become like one of those dynamic team, instead of shooting low with a conservative style but still lose because the roster is not just there yet.

Yeah because it’s as black and white as if we didn’t hire MSL, we would have re-hired Therrien.

And how do I measure this metric? Just look at how much worse they are defensively than two years ago. You think it’s good for development that they are learning nothing except "I wonder how bad this can get"

I agree about the icetime for kids, that’s good, never said different. But at the same time, the GM and Executive VP of the team are the bosses. Hire any coach and say "play the young guys no matter what." Just like at any job. Your boss wants one thing, you think it isn’t smart and suggest something else but they still want it their way. What do I do? I do it the way they want it, stupid or not.

Speaking of stupid, the coach with no experience that’s an NHL vet always ignores any problem a vet does. Infinite chances. So with the charisma comes the country club attitude and I think that’s more dangerous than a lot of things a hardass coach could do.

Again, the egregious error is hiring MSL with no experienced coaches. That’s not Marty’s fault, but something needs to be done.

 

[Rapala]

I think the bitching about the hire is a bit much.

What were we to do, hire Vigneault and have done Therrien, Julien and Vigneault TWICE? We don't need to go down that road.

Marty has done a better job developing youth than any coach we've had in a long time, so in ways he was the right hire. The experiment now is to see if he can transition from being a developmental coach to one who can instill a culture of accountability, systems, etc. that transforms a team into one capable of winning.

Right now he is failing that test because his accountability doesn't apply to the veterans who are playing terribly and making things hurt. We have so many young players in the lineup that we can't have Xhekaj throwing a pizza in the middle and then Dvorak doing it the next game and doubling down on it later. Xhekaj is learning and growing, Dvorak is a veteran. He should be making the simple and effective play to keep things afloat while the kids have their ups and downs.

But often times Armia, Dvorak, Matheson and Savard are the worst players on the ice. None of them are seeing a decrease in duties, threatened to be scratched, benched, etc.

And he's also just doubling down on his systems that aren't working. If they can't execute a hybrid system right now, SIMPLIFY and ADD to the simplified system. They aren't going to get better at your system if at the end of the night they've given up 4+ goals again.

I don't think I'm disappointed with the hire like you said we've seen decent handling of kids for the most part.
I don't want to talk about the veterans there's no point.

The thing that irks me the most is the refusal to dummy down the coverage.
I'm seriously lost at what exactly it is I'm supposed to be watching.

The camp started with a Barron Xhekaj pairing playing simple unremarkable D with a simple box out strategy and quick puck movement.
I get it we weren't playing against full contingents.
It didn't stop me from thinking okay we are going to implement a simple system to help our D mitigate some of the errors they are prone to.

Damn was I ever wrong.

 

[Nevins]

My dream coach team: Head coach Bob Hartley
Assistant coach: Guy Carbonneau and Larry Robinson

 

[WeThreeKings]

My dream coach team: Head coach Bob Hartley
Assistant coach: Guy Carbonneau and Larry Robinson

Please no, replace Robinson with Therrien and you might have the worst coaching staff ever.

 

[Captain Mountain]

What about the teacher’s pet Struble? He’s atrocious. 10 minutes of play, -2. When will marty single him out? The real teacher’s pet. The good boston student guy.

It doesn't matter. Everyone has been bad. Montreal's playing at a level where they would be the worst defensive team in the last 15 years.

Scapegoating specific players doesn't make sense because the problem is too big.

My dream coach team: Head coach Bob Hartley
Assistant coach: Guy Carbonneau and Larry Robinson

Please dream bigger.

 

[Nevins]

Please no, replace Robinson with Therrien and you might have the worst coaching staff ever.

What do You propose?

 

[boompuffboom]

ca fait dur.

it make hard.

 

[dcyhabs]

Yeah because it’s as black and white as if we didn’t hire MSL, we would have re-hired Therrien.

And how do I measure this metric? Just look at how much worse they are defensively than two years ago. You think it’s good for development that they are learning nothing except "I wonder how bad this can get"

I agree about the icetime for kids, that’s good, never said different. But at the same time, the GM and Executive VP of the team are the bosses. Hire any coach and say "play the young guys no matter what." Just like at any job. Your boss wants one thing, you think it isn’t smart and suggest something else but they still want it their way. What do I do? I do it the way they want it, stupid or not.

Speaking of stupid, the coach with no experience that’s an NHL vet always ignores any problem a vet does. Infinite chances. So with the charisma comes the country club attitude and I think that’s more dangerous than a lot of things a hardass coach could do.

Again, the egregious error is hiring MSL with no experienced coaches. That’s not Marty’s fault, but something needs to be done.

I think a big part of the problem is that most of the young guys really need an older guy to show them the ropes. Savard is there for that, but he's an effort guy who stuck around by plugging and blocking shots, he can give them a few defensive hints, but not so much about transition. The two vets, Savard and Matheson, are polar opposites but they are both one dimensional. The team really needs a smart older vet D who has played top pairing and knows what to do and pass that on. The habs haven't really had good D since they had a bunch of big old guys following Weber.

Maybe get Weber to coach a bit? Robidas is another sort of extreme D, but he should be able to give some of the smaller guys advice on how to survive the NHL. Coaching is one thing, most of the young guys really need a partner who can tell them what they did wrong and what they should do right after the whistle.

 

[Paddyjack]

It doesn't matter. Everyone has been bad. Montreal's playing at a level where they would be the worst defensive team in the last 15 years.

Scapegoating specific players doesn't make sense because the problem is too big.

Please dream bigger.

15? I've been following this team for about 45 years, never saw that level of mediocrity in our zone.

And people in this thread thinking that it's a long process, that MSL has a plan etc, I've got news for you. The players will get off the bus way before that plan is working.

 

[Captain Mountain]

15? I've been following this team for about 45 years, never saw that level of mediocrity in our zone.

And people in this thread thinking that it's a long process, that MSL has a plan etc, I've got news for you. The players will get off the bus way before that plan is working.

I'm not talking about the Canadiens franchise, I'm talking about the entire NHL.

 

[zx81]

@Rapala !

Finally Dvo on the wing! And some thought it would never happen!!!!!

Dvo should be on the wing...of an airplane on a trip to Australia (that's the closest place I want him to be).

 

[Mcdonaldz]

If Montgomery gets fired … do Habs need the Bruins approval to hire him ?

I remembere we got Claude Julien soon after they fired him.

If needed… any chance they say no ? probably some

 

[Le Barron de HF]

If Montgomery gets fired … do Habs need the Bruins approval to hire him ?

I remembere we got Claude Julien soon after they fired him.

If needed… any chance they say no ? probably some

They let Julien go, at the end of the day it depends on Jacobs wanting to save some dough. Unsure what Montgomery's contract is.

 

[le_sean]

If Montgomery gets fired … do Habs need the Bruins approval to hire him ?

I remembere we got Claude Julien soon after they fired him.

If needed… any chance they say no ? probably some

I don’t think you need permission. It would be up to him to reach a settlement with Boston for his money owed.

 

[Mcdonaldz]

My dream coach team: Head coach Bob Hartley
Assistant coach: Guy Carbonneau and Larry Robinson

Une présentation de l’Antichambre

 

[Habs]

If Montgomery gets fired … do Habs need the Bruins approval to hire him ?

I remembere we got Claude Julien soon after they fired him.

If needed… any chance they say no ? probably some

does he speak french? That's the #1 requirement

 

[HabsCode]

does he speak french? That's the #1 requirement

Yes. Comme un pur laine peut-être pas, mais he was born in Montreal.

 

[Nevins]

If Montgomery gets fired … do Habs need the Bruins approval to hire him ?

I remembere we got Claude Julien soon after they fired him.

If needed… any chance they say no ? probably some

Would be my second choice

does he speak french? That's the #1 requirement

Yes

 

[le_sean]

Would be my second choice

I’m sorry, Jim Montgomery would be your second choice behind Bob Hartley?

 

[Habs]

I’m sorry, Jim Montgomery would be your second choice behind Bob Hartley?

I never liked Hartley myself.

 

[26Mats]

If Montgomery gets fired … do Habs need the Bruins approval to hire him ?

I remembere we got Claude Julien soon after they fired him.

If needed… any chance they say no ? probably some

Montgomery or Alain Vigneault would be good assistants to bring in.

 

[TRG]

Hartley? Really?

Let's get a vet assistant for Marty, that's a better option.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Montgomery or Alain Vigneault would be good assistants to bring in.

I’d bring Montgomery in. I think the game has probably passed Vigneault by at this point.