Coach Killers

[Ianturnedbull]

Did one star player quit on Babcock, or was it more than that?

Keefe has survived this long because he's at least delivered success in the regular season. This year's team is weakened enough to deprive him of that guarantee, and he's yet to demonstrate an ability to adapt to a roster. If the roster can't perform to his style, there's seemingly no Plan B. The coach killer is this case is Keefe.

No. Jaromir Jagr was considered a coach killer when he played for the Capitals.

 

[Hellcat]

Joel Quenneville too if Bettman allows him to return.

Quenneville is a dirtbag of a human for what he did in Chicago. With that said I believe in redemption, especially if that redemption brings Quenneville to Toronto. Leafs look like they dont give a shit, they need a reason why to play, more than just to play in the playoffs, you'd think mega contracts would do that but apparently not.

Did one star player quit on Babcock, or was it more than that?

Keefe has survived this long because he's at least delivered success in the regular season. This year's team is weakened enough to deprive him of that guarantee, and he's yet to demonstrate an ability to adapt to a roster. If the roster can't perform to his style, there's seemingly no Plan B. The coach killer is this case is Keefe.

Keefe has survived this long be cause he kisses the asses of his stars. He rightfully criticizes Marner last year (should have never said it in the media but was right in his assessment), then comes out next day and back pedals.

 

[m1ker]

Whenever we switch Nylander and Marner we go on a hot streak and then keefe switches them back and we go on a slump again.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Joel Quenneville too if Bettman allows him to return.

Gross. Never

 

[Arzak]

They needed Mike Babcock , yes he is a moron that probably shouldn't be hired in the first place but firing him because he was mean on our young stars?

They had two options, toughen up a bit under asshole Mike or cry about mean coach calling them out in the media.

I don't miss Mike but giving them the option was a mistake, how can that teach them anything but to be a victim (some posters argue we had to overpay for the trauma caused by Mike, I think that we are still paying for letting him go)?

How can they respect any coach? They have to first consider if his request was valid or if his criticism wasn't too harsh. You got the most expansive coach in history fired, the next one better treat you right !!!

 

[BamBamCam]

Darryl Sutter. Come on down!!!!

 

[Arzak]

No. Jaromir Jagr was considered a coach killer when he played for the Capitals.

True story, but at that time he had an underwhelming season after taking home Art Ross , year after year after year after year after year... it was fairly reasonable to blame the coach

The list of players with more points than Jaromir Jagr :
Wayne Gretzky


Matthews could be our Jagr if keeps on scoring or is it Marner with his Wayne-like playmaking abilities?
I've reconsidered, with two Jagrs on this team, we're doing great in the coaching department.

If you check the stats from evolving-hockey- "%/60 expected coaches above replacement" we are top 5 in the league.

 

[thewave]

A lot of things should have changed after the Montreal series

Exactly, that was when I knew we were in really serious trouble with management. I didn't like Dubas from the start but the response from that was a joke and very telling.

 

[thewave]

True story, but at that time he had an underwhelming season after taking home Art Ross , year after year after year after year after year... it was fairly reasonable to blame the coach

The list of players with more points than Jaromir Jagr :
Wayne Gretzky


Matthews could be our Jagr if keeps on scoring or is it Marner with his Wayne-like playmaking abilities?
I've reconsidered, with two Jagrs on this team, we're doing great in the coaching department.

If you check the stats from evolving-hockey- "%/60 expected coaches above replacement" we are top 5 in the league.

They aren't even close. We have more of a Hull and Oates situation here and that's by the numbers. I don't think Jagr fits the bill for Matthews, I mean when Jagr was younger he put up a 149pts season, had health issues and regularly paced in production more closer to Mario.

 

[francis246]

Keefe likely isn't going to be fired anytime soon after the extension.

The extension doesn’t mean anything. It was a 1 year extension to ensure that the players don’t take advantage of him knowing he’s a lame duck.

I’d assume if they don’t make a deep run Keefe is gone at the end of the year. If they continue to struggle he’s gone sooner.

Darryl Sutter. Come on down!!!!

He and Treliving didn’t get along in Calgary doubt it

 

[francis246]

Exactly, that was when I knew we were in really serious trouble with management. I didn't like Dubas from the start but the response from that was a joke and very telling.

It’s so hard to know who didn’t want change. I used to blame Dubas a lot. But after this summer you have to think there were points where Dubas maybe wanted to make changes and Shanahan shut those ideas down to keep the core together.

Cannot wait for the Dubas or Shanahan tell all interview or book in the future.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

True story, but at that time he had an underwhelming season after taking home Art Ross , year after year after year after year after year... it was fairly reasonable to blame the coach

The list of players with more points than Jaromir Jagr :
Wayne Gretzky


Matthews could be our Jagr if keeps on scoring or is it Marner with his Wayne-like playmaking abilities?
I've reconsidered, with two Jagrs on this team, we're doing great in the coaching department.

If you check the stats from evolving-hockey- "%/60 expected coaches above replacement" we are top 5 in the league.

Jagr

PIT. Points
1995-96. 149
1996-97. 95
1997-98. 102
1998-99. 127
1999-00. 96
2000-01. 121
WSH.
2001-02. 79
2002-03. 77
2003-04. 45
NY.
2003-04. 29

Jagr had a long long career. He was fantastic, but he was considered by some (opinion and not a fact) to be a coach killer in his Washington days.

 

[Menzinger]

The extension doesn’t mean anything. It was a 1 year extension to ensure that the players don’t take advantage of him knowing he’s a lame duck.

I’d assume if they don’t make a deep run Keefe is gone at the end of the year. If they continue to struggle he’s gone sooner.

It would make Tre look like an idiot if he's fired so soon, so I doubt he goes down that route.

Regardless I don't see anything to suggest Tre would even consider it. He seems to genuinely like Keefe.

Doesn't strike me as a scenario where we'll see a mid season coaching change. This current level of play won't last either

 

[uncleben]

Guy Boucher Leafs Assistant coach currently running the PP and the only time the Leafs seem to score when all 4 of Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Tavares are on the ice together.

View attachment 755603

That's my thought.

Boucher, from the start, felt a little bit like a built-in "interim coach" for if Keefe goes midseason

 

[Lightsol]

Bingo!

Here is what absolutely pissed me off

- Against the Habs Leafs couldn't do F all 5 on 5 and he still didn't break up Matthews-Marner to get a different look
- Against CBJ Leafs couldn't do F all 5 on 5 and he still didn't break up Matthews-Marner to get a different look
- Agains the bolts (first time) Leafs couldn't do F all 5 on 5 much and he still didn't break up Matthews-Marner to get a different look
- Against the bolts (2nd time) he FINALLY changed it the F up to have Matthews-Marner play on different lines and Leafs got a series win out of it
- Against the Panthers (I thought he finally learned but of course...); Leafs couldn't do F all 5 on 5 and he still didn't break up Matthews-Marner to get a different look

What kind of a shit coach repeats teh same strategies and mistakes that didnt work at all. It is effing astounding!!!

Now whether it is Keefe doing this on purpose or Matthews-Marner crying like babies I dont know

I'd like to point out he also didn't move Zack Hyman off of that line, he basically stapled Alex Kerfoot to Nylander, he kept overplaying the veterans like Thornton even after it was obvious they needed to play less....
It's not just Matthews-Marner, its that Keefe picks the weirdest times to line scramble and doesn't do it when he probably should. And he had a very annoying tendency to go back to combinations that stopped working years ago (how many times did we see him use Muzzin-Holl even after it became apparent that it wasn't going to work? And I think McCabe-Klingberg is going to be the new Muzzin-Holl...).

 

[hurdemz]

My medium to long term crystal ball prediction is Sheldon Keefe will one day be replaced by Jon Cooper. Coop is always making kissy faces with the Toronto media and speaks about the team like he's so familiar. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets that Babcock itch to replicate his success in Toronto, if things go south in Tampa... the cycle of big name coaches and whatnot.

This feels wrong

 

[glue]

To me, it’s way beyond the leafs. Starting with MLSE, not enough accountability in this organization. Not one other NHL team that wouldn’t have made major changes by now to their hockey operations. Organizations that care about winning don’t make excuses over and over again. To me the fact that Shannahan is still around doesn’t show any accountability. He hired Dubas who hired Keefe and gave out the contracts to this core. Leafs made the playoffs 7 straight years, make a killing off merch or marketing with their nhl stars. They would rather lose in the playoffs then make the tough calls on this core because it risks the money they can make. And yeah I get that they could make more if the leafs go further but when your making billions, potential for a few more doesn’t matter as much as steady billions yearly. It’s a business to MLSE, that’s it.

 

[TheScandal89]

Keefe likely isn't going to be fired anytime soon after the extension.

While I agree, I vaguely remember Ron Wilson being fired months after his extension. Were the Leafs, we got money to burn but the cap stops us.

 

[rumman]

Darryl Sutter. Come on down!!!!

Sutter wouldn't touch the opportunity with a barge pole, babysit a bunch of spoiled brats? No thank you...........

 

[Jojalu]

It’s so hard to know who didn’t want change. I used to blame Dubas a lot. But after this summer you have to think there were points where Dubas maybe wanted to make changes and Shanahan shut those ideas down to keep the core together.

Cannot wait for the Dubas or Shanahan tell all interview or book in the future.

I agree.

There is a lot of noise that Dubas wanted to break up the 4 and Shanny said no.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I agree.

There is a lot of noise that Dubas wanted to break up the 4 and Shanny said no.

I don't believe that in all honesty. Seems like a narrative that his fluffers Mirtle and Seigel would create, with their agenda.

 

[francis246]

I don't believe that in all honesty. Seems like a narrative that his fluffers Mirtle and Seigel would create, with their agenda.

Except it wasn’t mirtle and Siegel reporting this. You had Chris Johnson, Elliot and others who reported that Dubas looked into a trade for Marner or Nylander after the 2022 loss to Tampa but the value wasn’t there. It was then reported after the Florida loss that there was going to be a change within the core 4 forwards and Dubas was seriously looking at all options. Then he was subsequently fired.

I can’t say for certain but I believe a trade was coming and my belief is Marner would have been the piece gone because of his NMC kicking in

 

[Bluebear]

My medium to long term crystal ball prediction is Sheldon Keefe will one day be replaced by Jon Cooper. Coop is always making kissy faces with the Toronto media and speaks about the team like he's so familiar. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets that Babcock itch to replicate his success in Toronto, if things go south in Tampa... the cycle of big name coaches and whatnot.

I doubt Cooper is available for a bit yet. Tampa would be such an awesome spot to coach, I doubt Cooper is keen to leave, and I bet they don't replace Cooper until they they want to tank and even then only if they figure he is too good a coach to guide them to a lottery pick.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Except it wasn’t mirtle and Siegel reporting this. You had Chris Johnson, Elliot and others who reported that Dubas looked into a trade for Marner or Nylander after the 2022 loss to Tampa but the value wasn’t there. It was then reported after the Florida loss that there was going to be a change within the core 4 forwards and Dubas was seriously looking at all options. Then he was subsequently fired.

I can’t say for certain but I believe a trade was coming and my belief is Marner would have been the piece gone because of his NMC kicking in

Unfortunately we'll never know either way. Dubas said a lot of things that didn't end up happening.

 

[francis246]

Unfortunately we'll never know either way. Dubas said a lot of things that didn't end up happening.

Exactly and one has to think that Shanny interfered in a lot of Dubas’ plans. I do think there is truth to that. I think it goes both ways. Shanny probably stoped some bad deals but he probably also said no to some potentially good deals .
Either way like we said we won’t ever know