Coach Discussion: Warsofsky

[rekrul]

I believe Grier has been a master at roster changeover and taking the prospects from one of the worst to best in talent and depth. Replaced AHL and poor attitute talent with Wennberg, Dellandrea, Goodrow- all to shore up the bottom 6. this is far better than last year, Goodrow is playing a role he shouldn;t and Dellandrea is just not working out. they are better than what was here last year. Walman was a major coup and getting Toffoli was a great fit for the top line.

What Greir has miscaculated is using a rookie coach who was coaching in the mess that was last year. Its nice to see Smith get better and Muk start to look not so out of place but its the bottom 6, and D that are not playing in any system. They lose pucks constantly, possession is tilted in the wrong way and eventually every good team can pin the sharks in their end and force a mistake. Teams figured out things after a few months and this staff never can figure out how to get any system that everyone can buy into. I think its a terrible way to have the youth to go out and lose every night. Yelling at them and bag skates hasn't been working to fix any of the issues.

And with trading away the top goalie, Center and min eating Dman they are now going to be lucky to even meet last years worst team of cap era pts of 47. They will probably keep Wars to have some continuity but if he can't fix things even a little bit this season how is anything going to be different next season? Look at the bottom 1/3 of the league's defense. are the Sharks significantly worse in talent than those teams? I believe a coach that has had some proven success at the NHL level would suit this team better. There is a constant pool of retreads that get hired/fired and this team needs to bridge some way to get 60-70 point seasons to being competitive. Just winning 1/2 of the 1 goal games they are losing, not starting the season on 9 game losing streaks.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I believe Grier has been a master at roster changeover and taking the prospects from one of the worst to best in talent and depth. Replaced AHL and poor attitute talent with Wennberg, Dellandrea, Goodrow- all to shore up the bottom 6. this is far better than last year, Goodrow is playing a role he shouldn;t and Dellandrea is just not working out. they are better than what was here last year. Walman was a major coup and getting Toffoli was a great fit for the top line.

What Greir has miscaculated is using a rookie coach who was coaching in the mess that was last year. Its nice to see Smith get better and Muk start to look not so out of place but its the bottom 6, and D that are not playing in any system. They lose pucks constantly, possession is tilted in the wrong way and eventually every good team can pin the sharks in their end and force a mistake. Teams figured out things after a few months and this staff never can figure out how to get any system that everyone can buy into. I think its a terrible way to have the youth to go out and lose every night. Yelling at them and bag skates hasn't been working to fix any of the issues.

And with trading away the top goalie, Center and min eating Dman they are now going to be lucky to even meet last years worst team of cap era pts of 47. They will probably keep Wars to have some continuity but if he can't fix things even a little bit this season how is anything going to be different next season? Look at the bottom 1/3 of the league's defense. are the Sharks significantly worse in talent than those teams? I believe a coach that has had some proven success at the NHL level would suit this team better. There is a constant pool of retreads that get hired/fired and this team needs to bridge some way to get 60-70 point seasons to being competitive. Just winning 1/2 of the 1 goal games they are losing, not starting the season on 9 game losing streaks.

In terms of defensemen, the Sharks are definitely worse than pretty much every team. It may not be some insurmountable gap to overcome but it’s there. Pretty much all the other bottom third teams have three guys that can be confused as a top four guy. We don’t. Getting more talented on the blue line can go a long way for this team but it’s not all they have to do. They need a real 2nd line and they need a legitimate 3rd line too.

 

[Anomie2029]

I believe Grier has been a master at roster changeover and taking the prospects from one of the worst to best in talent and depth. Replaced AHL and poor attitute talent with Wennberg, Dellandrea, Goodrow- all to shore up the bottom 6. this is far better than last year, Goodrow is playing a role he shouldn;t and Dellandrea is just not working out. they are better than what was here last year. Walman was a major coup and getting Toffoli was a great fit for the top line.

What Greir has miscaculated is using a rookie coach who was coaching in the mess that was last year. Its nice to see Smith get better and Muk start to look not so out of place but its the bottom 6, and D that are not playing in any system. They lose pucks constantly, possession is tilted in the wrong way and eventually every good team can pin the sharks in their end and force a mistake. Teams figured out things after a few months and this staff never can figure out how to get any system that everyone can buy into. I think its a terrible way to have the youth to go out and lose every night. Yelling at them and bag skates hasn't been working to fix any of the issues.

And with trading away the top goalie, Center and min eating Dman they are now going to be lucky to even meet last years worst team of cap era pts of 47. They will probably keep Wars to have some continuity but if he can't fix things even a little bit this season how is anything going to be different next season? Look at the bottom 1/3 of the league's defense. are the Sharks significantly worse in talent than those teams? I believe a coach that has had some proven success at the NHL level would suit this team better. There is a constant pool of retreads that get hired/fired and this team needs to bridge some way to get 60-70 point seasons to being competitive. Just winning 1/2 of the 1 goal games they are losing, not starting the season on 9 game losing streaks.

For the majority of the season he has been on the 4th line (outside of the recent 3rd line and the random first line games). If that's a role he shouldn't be playing - then he shouldn't be playing!

Goodrow has been the worst move Grier has made. We all assumed there was something else in the works, to the point where people have tried to connect the Walman deal to it, but the reality is that it was a big fail from Grier.

 

[Lebanezer]

For the majority of the season he has been on the 4th line (outside of the recent 3rd line and the random first line games). If that's a role he shouldn't be playing - then he shouldn't be playing!

Goodrow has been the worst move Grier has made. We all assumed there was something else in the works, to the point where people have tried to connect the Walman deal to it, but the reality is that it was a big fail from Grier.

The Goodrow move made no sense at the time, and looks worse now than I honestly expected. Goodrow is the type of guy that might be usable on a very good team where he can be hidden on a good 4th line. He's more of a passenger than a line driver, which is why this experiment has gone so poorly.

I'm not thrilled with a lot of Warsofsky's lineup decisions or inconsistency when assessing players both positively and negatively. A month or so ago he talked about Henry Thrun turning a corner, which he clearly hadn't, and now he's benching him in a blowout. However, Warsofsky has never been the head coach of a team this bad relative to their competition. In fact he's never had a losing record as a head coach before this season, granted this is only his 6th season as a head coach. I think that he simply does not know how to coach a bad team and whatever was working for him in the past was never going to work with the Sharks. They're simply too bad. It's hard to tell if this rude awakening is teaching him anything because he often looks flummoxed in postgame interviews. I don't think you can talk about benching 14 guys after a game. You need to find a way to get those guys to give you enough that even if you lose, you are proud of their effort. That's what he should be pushing for, but given the effort over the past little while, I don't think he is or he doesn't know what buttons to push to get the team to lock in.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

This may be a bit of an overly simplistic analysis, but ultimately, this year's team is only slightly improved in 5v5 Corsi/xG metrics over last year's. They're dead last across the board. I know people will bring up that the goal differential has substantially improved, and I do respect that argument, but I think goal differential is influenced by a lot of things outside of the coach's control (forwards burying shots, goalies making saves, etc.), so I think 5v5 shot based metrics are better to assess coaching performance. (And for the record, our PP% is worse than last year's, while our PK% is the same, so I'm not cherry picking anything by looking strictly at 5v5).

Consider that the team added Walman, Toffoli, and Celebrini (as well as Smith/Ceci/Wennberg/Liljegren, but let's focus on guys who we can all agree are good for now) and lost only Hertl. Under the same coach, I would expect this change in personnel alone to cause at least the improvements that we've seen, and probably even larger improvements.

In parallel, consider that David Quinn was supposedly this god awful saboteur who had no real system. Under the same roster, I would expect the switch from this terrible coach to any half decent coach alone to cause at least the improvements that we've seen, and probably even larger improvements.

Now consider that we made these roster changes and switched coaches. Logically, it simply does not hold that Walman/Toffoli/Celebrini have been very good 5v5 players and that Warsofsky is doing significantly better than Quinn. If both of these statements were true, we would have seen a larger improvement in our 5v5 shot metrics.

And I think we can all trust our eyes, and the objective evidence, which tell us that Walman/Toffoli/Celebrini are very good players, and that our roster has significantly improved. So we're kinda cornered into concluding that Warsofsky isn't really doing much better than Quinn at all. So the best defense of Warsofsky (up to this point) would be that Quinn was actually just a mediocre coach who didn't actually have too much juice to squeeze out of this roster, and that Warsofsky is doing about the same thing under a slightly improved roster. Which, I don't really know how I feel about.

I'm not saying Warsofsky can't improve. But year 1 he has not done enough to really distinguish himself from Quinn. :/

 

[HockeyScout1425]

More importantly, none of "the kids" would be faring better in a bottom six NHL role than Goodrow or Kunin or Dellandrea.

Well we already saw Cardwell, and he was clearly better than any of those guys. Granted, Robins and Bordeleau are pure crap, but it cannot be any worse than Kunin or Goodrow. And really, it’s more about the message it sends that you don’t get to come here and pout about the waiver claim and half-ass it every night just because you’re a “respected veteran”. And in Kunin’s case, you don’t get to be a horrific pylon and then have the nerve to literally never backcheck. There’s a reason why the clown has so many (failed) breakaways. Are we watching the same games? Kunin is an AHL player dude. You think because he had a little heater earlier on that he’s not?

 

[HockeyScout1425]

If you want an example of a “good” bottom 6 player, it’s Alex Wennberg. He can win draws, he’s engaged defensively, and he is surprisingly okay at puck protection on the cycle. He’s also pretty consistent…now granted, they had to overpay him to come, but that’s what it SHOULD look like. And when there’s an injury he can move up to the 2C and not completely embarrass himself.

I also would slightly include Nico Sturm, the past 2 years he was a perfectly cromulent 4C that specializes in draws. I think he’s lost a step this year, but I digress.

Kunin is not a bottom 6 player. Throw the stat sheet away. You think because he can get open in the slot here and there and pots 15 goals a year he’s some bottom 6 savant? He’s one of the worst defensive forwards I have EVER watched. He makes Ferraro look “positionally sound” in his own end. And he back checks like twice a year after one of his “grade A’s” hits the glass and the other team is flying back the other way. Nobody sets up the breakout quite like this loser. He’s the equivalent of a 1B/DH in baseball who “hits 20 bombzzz” w/ a .275 on base and league worst defense.

Badrow, as has been discussed, was obviously a selke-caliber defensive forward not long ago. But he is clearly loafing this year. On a certain level, I can empathize w/ the shady way he was acquired and why should he try. Regardless, he’s a horrific example currently for the young talent, and it sends a terrible message to keep sending him out there w/ no repercussions. Especially when we’re benching Will and Eklund for lackluster shifts.

I’m actually much lower on Bordeleau than most sharks fans. I think he’s headed for Russia soon. I don’t see him as an NHL player. And Robins is likely done too. But it doesn’t matter. These guys are SO BAD. It just has to change. Dellandrea can’t catch a SINGLE PASS DUDE. Like what the freak are we even talking about.

 

[HockeyScout1425]

For what point? What's gonna be salvaged this year? At least let the kids get some playoff hockey under their belts even if it's at the A.

To show some improvement. I mean, otherwise, just forfeit the games right? Then you secure the top 3 pick. Would save me a lot of time and heat strokes watching this team send out Luke Kunin to “shut down da top line” .

 

[TheBeard]

To show some improvement. I mean, otherwise, just forfeit the games right? Then you secure the top 3 pick. Would save me a lot of time and heat strokes watching this team send out Luke Kunin to “shut down da top line” .

So sending out Bystedt to shut down Eichel and co is gonna go better?

 

[HockeyScout1425]

Dude, you're on a multi-post unhinged anti warsofsky rant where you're claiming he has zero hockey knowledge and is the worst coach in the history of the NHL. I get that you're big mad about the bad performances, and none of us want to be Buffalo or tank forever, but you gotta temper your own hate, or if you won't, you're gonna get some push back.

Given the histrionics I didn't think a reasoned post was worth it, and anyway I've already said my piece earlier in this thread.

Get yourself ready for another tough year next year, by the way. With an incredible off-season, Grier (and hell, the ghost of Scotty Bowman) could maybe have us out of the bottom 5 next year.

You’re not engaging w/ anything I’m saying. You’re strawmanning me into some position as if I expected a bubble team this year? The simple fact is that this team has a lot more talent than last years AHL roster and is just as bad. As another user pointed out, the goal differential is improved but a lot of that is luck and the actual xG difference is barely better.

Yeah, I don’t think Warsofsky has a clue. Unless he’s under orders to massage the team to losses, there’s no explaining some of his decisions. Unless Grier is behind some of it(possible). I listen intently to every form of medium he does. That includes postgame w/ the beat writers, the homer stuff w/ the team media(Brodie, Tara, etc…). He never discusses any X’s and O’s, and the only thing he can say is “puck play”. The dump-in’s are not connected, the power play STINKS, and then his defensive scheme seems to ALLOW easy entries to “protect” against getting beat. Understandable if a guy like Vlasic was logging heavy minutes, but why is a guy like Ferraro ceding 10-15 feet of ice and not challenging a puck carrier at the blue line? I’m no Ferraro fan, but his problems have never been foot speed. That’s a huge reason as to why they are constantly hemmed in, not just the poor talent.

There’s all these simple things that a normal coach would at least try to tweak. A Norma coach would not have LUKE KUNIN averaging 30 seconds of PK time on ice over Wennberg. A normal coach would have SCRATCHED Goodrow by now. I mean holy s…dude. You can just laugh and meme if you want, but the small details matter to people that actually spend money going to the games and supporting the team(maybe you do, I dunno). And then like I said, it’s real rich for him to act Belichick w/ softies like SHENG when he’s got 15 wins and like 40 losses. LOL.

 

[HockeyScout1425]

So sending out Bystedt to shut down Eichel and co is gonna go better?

Ideally, Kunin is on the 4th line(if he’s in the league at all) and you would use a Wennberg line to get DZ starts against a teams top line. But again, despite your heavy sarcasm, for some reason Luke Kunin is averaging 30 more seconds of SHTOI than Alex Wennberg. Got an explanation for that one? Try to do it without sarcasm.

 

[HockeyScout1425]

And yeah, I saw enough of Cardwell to say that he would be vastly better in a defensive scenario than Kunin. He plays harder, he’s faster, he has more anticipation, and he doesn’t have the worst first step in hockey. So if you’re asking me if an energy bottom 6 prospect would fare better than Luke Kunin in his own end, the answer is an unequivocal yes. Bystedt has been inconsistent in my looks so far this year, but again, the bar is barely above the floor.

 

[TheBeard]

Ideally, Kunin is on the 4th line(if he’s in the league at all) and you would use a Wennberg line to get DZ starts against a teams top line. But again, despite your heavy sarcasm, for some reason Luke Kunin is averaging 30 more seconds of SHTOI than Alex Wennberg. Got an explanation for that one? Try to do it without sarcasm.

Probably because wennberg averages more than 3 more minutes a game than Luke and considering our biggest struggle is 5 on 5 I’d rather our best players get max time there than on the PK.

 

[The McMafia]

I don't know why Warsofsky should be catching strays here. Last year's team was historically bad (in red along with the 22-23 Ducks). This year (blue) they are tracking to be about 60 points which is still bad but a significant improvement.

The defense doesn't have anyone capable of top pairing minutes, and the team has a 1B line (for now), a 2B line (for now), and two fourth lines.

At least we're not the Hawks or Ducks. The former has been in the same place for the last three seasons, and the latter's improvement this year is due to Top 5 goaltending and could be a complete mirage.

 

[mogambomoroo]

All I'm going to say is that Sharks need this break soooo bad.
It's time to reset, everything you've done is now behind, burn the tape and go forward. Or keep the tape that reveals the impostors and act upon.
Keep the young guys developing and playing together. Management needs to have daily conversations with the young players of what is the plan and that the plan is to compete in X amount of years.

 

[matt trick]

I don't know why Warsofsky should be catching strays here. Last year's team was historically bad (in red along with the 22-23 Ducks). This year (blue) they are tracking to be about 60 points which is still bad but a significant improvement.

The defense doesn't have anyone capable of top pairing minutes, and the team has a 1B line (for now), a 2B line (for now), and two fourth lines.

At least we're not the Hawks or Ducks. The former has been in the same place for the last three seasons, and the latter's improvement this year is due to Top 5 goaltending and could be a complete mirage.

View attachment 975512

Is black circle three years ago?

That's probably a realistic jump to target for next year. It'll take three difference makers (top 4 D, top 6 F, Askarov providing league average performance), and a few quality depth additions (3rd line wing, maybe 4th line F).

This years team had NHL players in every spot in the line-up pre trades, unfortunately almost all of them (Celebrini as 2C, Blackwood as 1G, Wennberg as 3C, Sturm as 4C) were slotted one spot to high in the lineup for the team to get out of the bottom 5. That's a major improvement over the last two years.

Celebrini and Eklund will step into the 1C and 1LW spot, hopefully Askarov can play as a league average starter, however we need to push Tofolli, Zetterlund, Walman, Ferraro, Liljigren down a spot or two to get out of the bottom 5.

That may take two years. Next year get to .425-.475 (good for 3rd-5th currently), the following year get to .500-.550 which is playoff bubble.

On the topic of Warsofsky, I imagine that he'll get next year to show improvement, but I can't imagine his record will get him a third- it'll be the growth and development of Smith, Askarov, Muk, and Graf. Grief likely knows the hand he's being dealt, particularly after trades.

 

[coooldude]

You’re not engaging w/ anything I’m saying. You’re strawmanning me into some position as if I expected a bubble team this year? The simple fact is that this team has a lot more talent than last years AHL roster and is just as bad. As another user pointed out, the goal differential is improved but a lot of that is luck and the actual xG difference is barely better.

Yeah, I don’t think Warsofsky has a clue. Unless he’s under orders to massage the team to losses, there’s no explaining some of his decisions. Unless Grier is behind some of it(possible). I listen intently to every form of medium he does. That includes postgame w/ the beat writers, the homer stuff w/ the team media(Brodie, Tara, etc…). He never discusses any X’s and O’s, and the only thing he can say is “puck play”. The dump-in’s are not connected, the power play STINKS, and then his defensive scheme seems to ALLOW easy entries to “protect” against getting beat. Understandable if a guy like Vlasic was logging heavy minutes, but why is a guy like Ferraro ceding 10-15 feet of ice and not challenging a puck carrier at the blue line? I’m no Ferraro fan, but his problems have never been foot speed. That’s a huge reason as to why they are constantly hemmed in, not just the poor talent.

There’s all these simple things that a normal coach would at least try to tweak. A Norma coach would not have LUKE KUNIN averaging 30 seconds of PK time on ice over Wennberg. A normal coach would have SCRATCHED Goodrow by now. I mean holy s…dude. You can just laugh and meme if you want, but the small details matter to people that actually spend money going to the games and supporting the team(maybe you do, I dunno). And then like I said, it’s real rich for him to act Belichick w/ softies like SHENG when he’s got 15 wins and like 40 losses. LOL.

You can get big mad at me, but I'm not the only poster who thought you were over the top. It's hard to take someone seriously who says that a coach (who has won championships at nearly every level) has ZERO hockey knowledge, or that he's the WORST coach in HISTORY, and then gets mad that people aren't engaging.

Huge numbers of posters have been talking about all these points for nearly 60 games now. You registered an account 8 days ago and are demanding that people respond to you but only in the way you want them to - take a few weeks and read what people have been saying and see where you can jump in.

I like this post better than your other ones, but it's still a lot of anger pouring out into the keyboard at whoever last replied to you.

Answering your points:
- current roster actually isn't much better than last year, especially as it plays, because of all the injuries and the recent Granny/Ceci trade. We were starting Poturalski at 2C, FFS, and our next best option is a 19 year old who can't even grow a beard yet.
- big slide started at the same time as many injuries and the Blackwood trade. When you start with a weak roster, add injuries to your best players (Granlund, Walman) and can't pull out 2-3 upsets, then trade the only actually good vet goalie in the system for a guy who is lost in the woods, you're going to have a bad time.
- If, however, we had pulled out 2-3 upsets of those leads we had in the third, the record looks a lot better (not good). When you're as bad as we are, a few games make a big difference.
- goal differential is not just luck. PDO as one measure of luck is middle of the pack. We're still near the bottom (but better) in xGF and still near the bottom in xGA, because our defense was historically bad this year and just league worst this year.
- sure, they could have kept Cardwell up. That wouldn't make our team any better.
- sure, they could sit Goodrow, he has been trash this year. Unfortunately, that also won't make our team any better. Yes, I believe that our AHL call ups are not much better than Goodrow if at all, and if they are, it still might be better to insulate them from this team and keep them developing in the A.
- if you are seriously using press availability to evaluate a coach's ability to run X's and O's, you should reevaluate your understanding of what coaches and players think of press availability. Was Darryl Sutter actually an idiot who couldn't speak English, or did he just not care to explain himself to the press?
- you think Ferraro having poor gap control is the NHL head coach's fault? That's like blaming a NFL head coach because a quarterback has poor throwing motion or makes a bad read. "But the system should tell him to have good gap control" -- yes, every defenseman is taught from age 10 to have good gap control. The system doesn't allow easy entries, we don't have players who can make entries hard.
- "the dump ins are not connected" because our players are too slow/behind the play to be ahead of the play. It's pretty basic. We don't have team speed or size up front. NHL edge data confirms the speed part. But we also don't have team skill to carry through NZ or connect passes through NZ, so... You get a lot of dump ins because that's better than a NZ turnover. But that's Warsofsky's fault because a good coach will say, "be faster, be better"?
- Wennberg has been hurt, but when he has been playing, he's been seeing PP1 time and a majority of DZ starts, so yeah, also having him as a top PK guy would put him in Granlund 23-24min territory, which, if Alex Wennberg is playing top minutes in all three phases of your game, guess what you have? A roster problem.
- the reason he says "puck play" might very well be because our puck play sucks. Have you seen how often our players are easily stripped of the puck in the OZ, how often someone flubs a breakout pass into someone's skates or fails to clear the zone, or how often we fling a blind pass to the front of the net with no hope instead of controlling puck (because they can't) or getting it to the point (because our D men aren't a threat from the point or even reliable to keep the puck in)?

It's like if you're naked at the beach with nothing but a hand towel, and you keep trying to cover up different parts, and someone is yelling at you that you need to be a better, more respectful dresser. The problem is you don't have enough clothes, so even if you were slightly better at choosing where the hand towel goes, it wouldn't make much of a difference. Your ass is still mostly hanging out.

The roster sucks. We've had a ton of IR games lost. And as I said earlier in this thread, coach is probably replacement level at best. But he's not the #1 reason we suck or aren't fun to watch right now. And yes, I watch the games and care about the games and pay to see games, and have been doing so since 1991, so you aren't the only guy suffering through the rebuild.

 

[The McMafia]

Is black circle three years ago?

That's probably a realistic jump to target for next year. It'll take three difference makers (top 4 D, top 6 F, Askarov providing league average performance), and a few quality depth additions (3rd line wing, maybe 4th line F).

Yes, the black circle is 22-23. I think we should be pretty happy that the team ended up drafting #4 that year (and got Smith) because they were not as bad as their record in the fancy stats.

If things go extremely well, the Sharks can get into that Philly-Blues-Habs cluster next year.

 

[Celly4Celebrini]

Yes, the black circle is 22-23. I think we should be pretty happy that the team ended up drafting #4 that year (and got Smith) because they were not as bad as their record in the fancy stats.

If things go extremely well, the Sharks can get into that Philly-Blues-Habs cluster next year.

id also argue we werent suppose to be that bad in 22-23, and that the true tear down didnt start til 23-24, so we still have 1 more year in that 3 year bottoming out phase left. However Celebrinis impact may be enough to overachieve into that 8-12 range when you include a full season of Askarov and maturing+improvement from Smith and Eklund

 

[TheBeard]

id also argue we werent suppose to be that bad in 22-23, and that the true tear down didnt start til 23-24, so we still have 1 more year in that 3 year bottoming out phase left. However Celebrinis impact may be enough to overachieve into that 8-12 range when you include a full season of Askarov and maturing+improvement from Smith and Eklund

22-23 is very similar to this year in that the team's results are worse than the previous not because of the forwards and D but because the goaltending in't as strong as it was the year prior. 21-22 both Hill and Reimer posted pretty solid numbers before Reimer and KK shat the bed.

Both teams were also one line teams although 22-23 did have EK65 doing most of the damage offensively.