Management Claude Julien - Mod Warning post 643

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BsEuphoria

The Future
Sep 21, 2013
2,125
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I believe that Claude's philosophy in today's NHL is fundamentally flawed. It works well, but at its best all it did was defeat the worst team to make it to the NHL finals in years. We exposed Vancouver for what they were, a soft paper tiger, and even then it took 7 games to do it. Not to mention a goaltending performance that set mutiple NHL P.O records. We keep looking for the 2.0 version of that moment in time and I think it's impossible to replicate it given today's game.

His philosphy about the game is uninspiring, noncreative, and drains players of the offensive instincts they've honed since childhood. Tory Krug, although asked to take a role he isn't suited for went a 50 game stretch without a goal. A drop off was to be expected in Tory's game, but not to this extent. Meanwhile Riley Smith scores 25 (with 25 helpers) and has 5 pts. already the POs. While every situation isn't black and white, the extreme of those two situations sort of illustrate the effect Claude and his philosophy has on many players. The kid we thought was sharp eyed semi-sniper goes cold as ice, while the player who look as if he was inept around the net goes gang busters on another team. Marchand is an anomaly statistically under Claude. For the most part the Krug/Riley sliding scale is happening to some extent for players.

I understand the concept, it's not that it isn't valid. It reminds me of the "machine" quote by Barnes in Platoon . It's a question of how successful it is in today's POs. I can see the allure of it to GMs too. No need to fuss over young talent, no need to weigh the payroll down with a marquee scorer. But over time the exit of talent (no matter how undisciplined) takes it toll. The league is literally running out of Claude like players. Ones that can comply with his demands and still retain a creative offensive instinct.

Felger sees it, he just can't express it with anything other than hyperbole in order to get ratings. A lot of us have been seeing it for years and have been ringing the warning bell. How many flags have to go up before others see it? I could care less in regular season and what his rope-a-dope, up the boards, dump and chase system does. It's what happens to it when faced with teams playing desperately and on a fine edge of risk vs. reward. It and he rarely have an answer for that type of play. They get stuck in Claude Mode, and when the opportunity arises to make a team pay for taking risk, they don't see it, or worse they see and don't react. When they do react they're so out of sorts they can't connect on oddman rushes. Sure we were 5th in scoring this year, but don't you think a team with that stat could come up with a handful of goals to make the POs? Not once but twice now we've been unable to generate the offense (against bad teams no less) to make the POs. Just as timely saves are nearly as important as save %, so are timely goals.

He's far too mechanical in his approach to the game, and it's been showing in the final games of these last two seasons. Teams come in either wanting to be the spoilers or vying for a P.O spot themselves and the boys can't rise to the occasion. IMO I think it's because there is no extra level with Claude. While there's varying degrees of how vigorously the system is executed, the boys feel like they are playing outside the system if they raise it to another level of desperation. They do it occasionally but it's fleeting, and rarely for an entire game.

In order for his style of hockey to be successful it has to be a ploddingly repetitive series of shifts and games. I believe it wears on players over time and eventually they go through the motions mindlessly (even with vigor), then when the opportunities arise to capitalize on situations (even ones created by the system) they're stuck in that mode. Then there's those who simply can't stay up with the grind. The reward of playing in such a manner isn't personally satisfying enough. Hell, it's not fun to play and it's certainly not fun to watch for the most part either.

It works, it's predictable, it's consistent, and it's overachieving often times regardless of the roster. The problem is in the higher echelons of the game all those things make it defeatable. While Claude's philosophies about the game used to be called "playoff style hockey", that isn't the case anymore. One look at what's going on in the POs now (by successful teams) and there's no doubt in my mind that ship sailed. Cardinal sins on this team are committed practically left and right by P.O teams (good and bad) in an effort to generate offensive, shake things up, or just feel like an individual player trying to make a difference. Good, bad, indifferent, this is the variety of play that's needed to win in today's NHL. Yes it has to be tempered with Claude like attributes, but not nearly as much, and that aspect of the game is fading each season. All coaches try to cut down on bad turnovers, gaffs, and other such play. But other coaches do it with offensive chances as a barometer . The difference is Claude's philosophy is to eliminate them entirely at nearly any cost.

Can he come to understand the other half of the equation in today's game? It's yet to be seen IMO. We had an uptick in goals this year (historically on average under Claude it was high but nothing outrageous), while the "D" suffered mightily and that shows me he's not entirely oblivious to it. I think he "gets it", I just don't know if he has the mind set to act upon it. Old dogs, and the such. Perhaps this year was the front end of the equation, and adding his backend will be the needed adjustment. But I just don't see it, I get the awful feeling that the much needed improvement on the "D" will only make Claude retreat back to his comfort zone. Yeah we'll probably make the POs with this improvement, but with a nonetheless flawed game plan for them (the POs).

I wouldn't go so far as to say Claude's overrated, but he has certainly IMO, overachieved . But an overachieving gameplan is destined to fail when confronted by a winning one that's underachieving.

Have a good summer everyone.

I couldn't agree more with this post. Very well written and not in a negative light that I find myself falling into most times when talking about the coach.

The first bolded, is probably one of my biggest frustrations with the coach. This is a professional sport with the top <.01% of players in the world. Even with them being the best at their job, mistakes are going to happen, as well as other good teams forcing them on you. Trying to force your team into a flawless defensive system will only take you so far. It's how you turn the tide on mistakes is what will carry you through. Watching the players in his system, they look so hell bent at not making mistakes, they really don't look like they can flow and play openly the way most professionals that get to that level want to.

The second bolded is what truly scares me.

Can't wait to see the naysayers to this post come out in droves. There is a lot of things in this post that really made me hope they were taking another direction.
 

Fenway

HF Bookie and Bruins Historian
Sponsor
Sep 26, 2007
70,270
103,859
Cambridge, MA
I hope that WBZ-TV puts online the long interview that Claude had with Dan Roche on Sports Final on Sunday night.

vNeiXDM.jpg


Part 1 of the Julien interview now online

http://boston.cbslocal.com/video/ca...ches-1-on-1-with-bruins-claude-julien-part-1/
 

KrazyLegs

Registered Dude
Jun 12, 2011
5,876
3,793
Westminster, MA
I couldn't agree more with this post. Very well written and not in a negative light that I find myself falling into most times when talking about the coach.

The first bolded, is probably one of my biggest frustrations with the coach. This is a professional sport with the top <.01% of players in the world. Even with them being the best at their job, mistakes are going to happen, as well as other good teams forcing them on you. Trying to force your team into a flawless defensive system will only take you so far. It's how you turn the tide on mistakes is what will carry you through. Watching the players in his system, they look so hell bent at not making mistakes, they really don't look like they can flow and play openly the way most professionals that get to that level want to.

The second bolded is what truly scares me.

Can't wait to see the naysayers to this post come out in droves. There is a lot of things in this post that really made me hope they were taking another direction.

I agree with a lot of what he posted. And I really didn't think Claude would be back, nor do I think it's the right move.

That being said, the opening argument he used against Claude staying was that the best he can do with his system is win the Stanley Cup in 7 games. Um, what? Is that supposed to count as a strike against him? Weak stuff.

And, c'mon, nobody is going to take exception to the statement that Vancouver was the worst team to make the SCF in years? That's just hogwash. I know the Canuck hate runs strong here, but that team was very, very good. They were better than the last 4 non-Bruin Eastern Conf. teams to make it to the finals (TB, NY, NJ & Phi) and quite a bit better than two of those teams.
 

Spooner st

Registered User
Jan 14, 2007
12,945
8,101

SPLBRUIN

Registered User
Mar 21, 2010
12,332
12,505
I believe that Claude's philosophy in today's NHL is fundamentally flawed. It works well, but at its best all it did was defeat the worst team to make it to the NHL finals in years. We exposed Vancouver for what they were, a soft paper tiger, and even then it took 7 games to do it. Not to mention a goaltending performance that set mutiple NHL P.O records. We keep looking for the 2.0 version of that moment in time and I think it's impossible to replicate it given today's game.

His philosphy about the game is uninspiring, noncreative, and drains players of the offensive instincts they've honed since childhood. Tory Krug, although asked to take a role he isn't suited for went a 50 game stretch without a goal. A drop off was to be expected in Tory's game, but not to this extent. Meanwhile Riley Smith scores 25 (with 25 helpers) and has 5 pts. already the POs. While every situation isn't black and white, the extreme of those two situations sort of illustrate the effect Claude and his philosophy has on many players. The kid we thought was sharp eyed semi-sniper goes cold as ice, while the player who look as if he was inept around the net goes gang busters on another team. Marchand is an anomaly statistically under Claude. For the most part the Krug/Riley sliding scale is happening to some extent for players.

I understand the concept, it's not that it isn't valid. It reminds me of the "machine" quote by Barnes in Platoon . It's a question of how successful it is in today's POs. I can see the allure of it to GMs too. No need to fuss over young talent, no need to weigh the payroll down with a marquee scorer. But over time the exit of talent (no matter how undisciplined) takes it toll. The league is literally running out of Claude like players. Ones that can comply with his demands and still retain a creative offensive instinct.

Felger sees it, he just can't express it with anything other than hyperbole in order to get ratings. A lot of us have been seeing it for years and have been ringing the warning bell. How many flags have to go up before others see it? I could care less in regular season and what his rope-a-dope, up the boards, dump and chase system does. It's what happens to it when faced with teams playing desperately and on a fine edge of risk vs. reward. It and he rarely have an answer for that type of play. They get stuck in Claude Mode, and when the opportunity arises to make a team pay for taking risk, they don't see it, or worse they see and don't react. When they do react they're so out of sorts they can't connect on oddman rushes. Sure we were 5th in scoring this year, but don't you think a team with that stat could come up with a handful of goals to make the POs? Not once but twice now we've been unable to generate the offense (against bad teams no less) to make the POs. Just as timely saves are nearly as important as save %, so are timely goals.

He's far too mechanical in his approach to the game, and it's been showing in the final games of these last two seasons. Teams come in either wanting to be the spoilers or vying for a P.O spot themselves and the boys can't rise to the occasion. IMO I think it's because there is no extra level with Claude. While there's varying degrees of how vigorously the system is executed, the boys feel like they are playing outside the system if they raise it to another level of desperation. They do it occasionally but it's fleeting, and rarely for an entire game.

In order for his style of hockey to be successful it has to be a ploddingly repetitive series of shifts and games. I believe it wears on players over time and eventually they go through the motions mindlessly (even with vigor), then when the opportunities arise to capitalize on situations (even ones created by the system) they're stuck in that mode. Then there's those who simply can't stay up with the grind. The reward of playing in such a manner isn't personally satisfying enough. Hell, it's not fun to play and it's certainly not fun to watch for the most part either.

It works, it's predictable, it's consistent, and it's overachieving often times regardless of the roster. The problem is in the higher echelons of the game all those things make it defeatable. While Claude's philosophies about the game used to be called "playoff style hockey", that isn't the case anymore. One look at what's going on in the POs now (by successful teams) and there's no doubt in my mind that ship sailed. Cardinal sins on this team are committed practically left and right by P.O teams (good and bad) in an effort to generate offensive, shake things up, or just feel like an individual player trying to make a difference. Good, bad, indifferent, this is the variety of play that's needed to win in today's NHL. Yes it has to be tempered with Claude like attributes, but not nearly as much, and that aspect of the game is fading each season. All coaches try to cut down on bad turnovers, gaffs, and other such play. But other coaches do it with offensive chances as a barometer . The difference is Claude's philosophy is to eliminate them entirely at nearly any cost.

Can he come to understand the other half of the equation in today's game? It's yet to be seen IMO. We had an uptick in goals this year (historically on average under Claude it was high but nothing outrageous), while the "D" suffered mightily and that shows me he's not entirely oblivious to it. I think he "gets it", I just don't know if he has the mind set to act upon it. Old dogs, and the such. Perhaps this year was the front end of the equation, and adding his backend will be the needed adjustment. But I just don't see it, I get the awful feeling that the much needed improvement on the "D" will only make Claude retreat back to his comfort zone. Yeah we'll probably make the POs with this improvement, but with a nonetheless flawed game plan for them (the POs).

I wouldn't go so far as to say Claude's overrated, but he has certainly IMO, overachieved . But an overachieving gameplan is destined to fail when confronted by a winning one that's underachieving.

Have a good summer everyone.

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen on this board.
 

SPLBRUIN

Registered User
Mar 21, 2010
12,332
12,505
Wonder what would happen to Chicago if you switched the Bruins defense with Chicago's D?

Let's get one thing straight here about the Hawk's D, they have 3 very good players in Keith, Seabrooke and the Swedish guy augmented by a bunch of journeymen, yet coach Q has managed to turn them into a very efficient unit. To answer your question, Julien would not get as good as results as coach Q does in Chicago because he is a one-trick pony with his vaunted system, coach Q has a lot more imagination and he allows his players to play to their strengths unlike Julien's cookie-cutter approach where each player must play the same. The team with a really good D is St. Louis, that group has it all, size, skill and toughness.
 

Jean_Jacket41

Neely = HOF
Jun 25, 2003
25,698
14,217
With the smurfs
Let's get one thing straight here about the Hawk's D, they have 3 very good players in Keith, Seabrooke and the Swedish guy augmented by a bunch of journeymen, yet coach Q has managed to turn them into a very efficient unit. To answer your question, Julien would not get as good as results as coach Q does in Chicago because he is a one-trick pony with his vaunted system, coach Q has a lot more imagination and he allows his players to play to their strengths unlike Julien's cookie-cutter approach where each player must play the same. The team with a really good D is St. Louis, that group has it all, size, skill and toughness.

And Julien managed to turn a unit of 39y Chara, an over the hill Seids, K.Miller, McQuaid, Krug, C.Miller, Trotman and Morrow, which many said was the worst D unit in the league, into a 93pts playoffs contending team.

And you are telling that Julien wouldn't have good results if he had Keith, Seabrook and Hjalmarson as key dog on D? This makes no sense at all.
 

LouJersey

Registered User
Jun 29, 2002
69,384
45,680
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Love fest? :huh:

Tell me where the Bruins went wrong this year?

We missed the play-offs, again by one point .. Tie breaker this year actually.

Maybe giving 12 minutes a night for half the season to Kemppainen? Dressing Rinaldo and his one goal for 50 games? Acciari and his 1 assist in 19? Talbot? Jimmy Hayes over Pastrnak on the PP? Your best goal scorer on your second PP unit skating with Hayes and Beleskey or Connolly? Keep dressing Seidenberg over Chiller (both had similar defensive stats)..

Was it the players choking like it has been for three years now?

The coach?

Did the GM not do enough?

You're good with this coach and core together for another year?
 
Last edited:

RussellmaniaKW

Registered User
Sep 15, 2004
19,729
21,853
Tell me where the Bruins went wrong this year?

We missed the play-offs, again by one point .. Tie breaker this year actually.

Maybe giving 12 minutes a night for half the season to Kemppainen? Dressing Rinaldo and his one goal for 50 games? Acciari and his 1 assist in 19? Talbot? Jimmy Hayes over Pastrnak on the PP? Your best goal scorer on your second PP unit skating with Hayes and Beleskey or Connolly? Keep dressing Seidenberg over Chiller (both had similar defensive stats)..

Was it the players choking like it has been for three years now?

The coach?

Did the GM not do enough?

You're good with this coach and core together for another year?

Lou, most people in this thread are crapping on Claude. I think Artemis' point was to say "where do you see a love fest?".

At best people are split over Claude returning.
 

Artemis

Took the red pill
Dec 8, 2010
20,860
2
Mount Olympus
Tell me where the Bruins went wrong this year?

We missed the play-offs, again by one point .. Tie breaker this year actually.

Maybe giving 12 minutes a night for half the season to Kemppainen? Dressing Rinaldo and his one goal for 50 games? Acciari and his 1 assist in 19? Talbot? Jimmy Hayes over Pastrnak on the PP? Your best goal scorer on your second PP unit skating with Hayes and Beleskey or Connolly? Keep dressing Seidenberg over Chiller (both had similar defensive stats)..

Was it the players choking like it has been for three years now?

The coach?

Did the GM not do enough?

You're good with this coach and core together for another year?

It's been gone over 100 times. I'm tired of beating a prostate equine, sorry.

I simply expressed surprise at your "love fest" comment considering the recent lengthy screed posted about Julien and the applause it's engendered. I.e. what Russell said above.
 

LouJersey

Registered User
Jun 29, 2002
69,384
45,680
At the Cross
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Lou, most people in this thread are crapping on Claude. I think Artemis' point was to say "where do you see a love fest?".

At best people are split over Claude returning.

It's been gone over 100 times. I'm tired of beating a prostate equine, sorry.

I simply expressed surprise at your "love fest" comment considering the recent lengthy screed posted about Julien and the applause it's engendered. I.e. what Russell said above.

Ok, missed the past few posts.
 

DKH

Worst Poster/Awful Takes
Feb 27, 2002
76,678
57,741
Ok, missed the past few posts.

Lou I counted 123 texts between me and you over the last 10 months where you said Reilly Smith was good and I said he wasn't

happy:rant:;)
 

LouJersey

Registered User
Jun 29, 2002
69,384
45,680
At the Cross
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Lou I counted 123 texts between me and you where you said Reilly Smith was good and I said he wasn't

happy:rant:;)

:laugh::laugh::laugh: Reilly Smith love will always make me happy.. :nod:

As far as Claude, I think it can be easily argued his coaching style cost us the play-offs the past two seasons (as well as the players obviously). I'm not worried too much about it because they would have gotten housed.
 

ReggieMoto

Registered User
Nov 24, 2003
5,644
11
Manchester, NH
At best people are split over Claude returning.

77-23 I think. Clearly most are satisfied with what the coach brings to the table. I am.

He needs a better blue line. If he doesn't get one that's on the GM.

I'm also good with the forward core. I don't believe the roster needs to be blown up. Most of the defense needs to be turned over. I think Rask is overpaid, but if he has a competent defense in front of him he'll be okay.
 
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