Player Discussion Christian Dvorak Part 2

[tazsub3]

What does that mean, that you can't evaluate Armia because he only disappointed in the regular season?

Should he be used as a designated LTIR for the playoffs like Kucherov or Stone?

That means you replied to someone saying armia great in the playoffs and you said we evaluated that last few years ….. to which my point , how can you evaluate a playoff performer if you not even smelling the playoffs ?

 

[tazsub3]

Playoff beast Joel Armia scores at a 30pt/season pace in the playoffs. He is already past his prime, so I don't see the point if deferring to his playoff production if he's not the same player he was in his last playoff series. He's allegedly injured right now.

Doesn't it make sense to replace Armia with a younger, quicker, more explosive player? It's not like his production or availability will be hard to replace. The FA market and the trade market will have bottom6 players who can put up 30pts/season with 15min of icetime/gp.

I agree with that , was just replying to someone who said we have not see. Much of his playoff prowess , well yea , cants see that when you tank
Let’s see this year

 

[BLONG7]

The bum can go kick rocks, I want the Bergevin era turd trifecta off this team this summer.

He has been better, but too little too late.
Time to move on....

 

[Hoochi Papa]

That means you replied to someone saying armia great in the playoffs and you said we evaluated that last few years ….. to which my point , how can you evaluate a playoff performer if you not even smelling the playoffs ?

Are you serious?

If he mails it in 3/4 years, there will be a lot to evaluate. Your point makes no sense at all, because what you're trying to say is that he can't be evaluated if the Canadiens don't make the playoffs. If a player has no responsibility during the regular season, he definitely doesn't deserve an extension. The condition you are imposing is artificial and completely unsustainable.

Also, this so called playoff beast mode Armia had Eric Staal and Corey Perry on his line. Two former star veterans with a skill set that rarely seen on the 4th line.

 

[GrandmaCookie]

Should he stay or should he go. He has been playing good hockey lately.

 

[HankyZetts]

Should he stay or should he go. He has been playing good hockey lately.

cheap and im down

 

[Dagistitsyn]

Should he stay or should he go. He has been playing good hockey lately.

Absolutely has to go.
He’s been one of the most vanilla, utterly useless players for majority of his contract. Finally has a short good stretch and people are considering resigning him. He’s replaceable.
Dime a dozen. Decent on face offs and that’s it.
All that being said it’s nice that he’s finally providing some offense

 

[Miller Time]

Absolutely has to go.
He’s been one of the most vanilla, utterly useless players for majority of his contract. Finally has a short good stretch and people are considering resigning him. He’s replaceable.
Dime a dozen. Decent on face offs and that’s it.
All that being said it’s nice that he’s finally providing some offense

Depends on a few things... Obviously we shouldn't match the market premium offers he'll get this summer with the big cap increase and thin UFA C pool, or if we successfully add a top 6 C while keeping 1 or both of Dach/Newhook...

But if he's willing to stick around on a 1-2 year deal at the cap hit Evans took, rather than cash in, I think he stays quite easily.

 

[HabzSauce]

Depends on a few things... Obviously we shouldn't match the market premium offers he'll get this summer with the big cap increase and thin UFA C pool, or if we successfully add a top 6 C while keeping 1 or both of Dach/Newhook...

But if he's willing to stick around on a 1-2 year deal at the cap hit Evans took, rather than cash in, I think he stays quite easily.

Would like to keep Dvo around as well on a 1-2 year deal. But man is our forward lines ever crowded (assuming they re-sign only one of Dvo or Armia):

CC - Suzuki - Slaf
Laine - newhook - Demidov
Gallagher - Dvo - Anderson
Heineman - Evans - ???

That's one spot up for grabs next season. Kappenen? Then what about our 2C?

I think we are going to see some shit go down this summer. Even if they UFA sign Bennett for ex, that is too many forwards. They will have to trade some

 

[Sorinth]

Dvorak has had a good year, but I just don't see how anyone can have any confidence that this is the "real" Dvorak that we will see over the next few years if we were to re-sign him. His bounce back year should get him a decent contract on the FA market and honestly I wish him the best, but it just doesn't make sense for it to be us to sign him.

 

[Deebs]

Should he stay or should he go. He has been playing good hockey lately.

Tell him to split an Uber with Army to the airport and wish them all the best in the future.

 

[Miller Time]

Dvorak has had a good year, but I just don't see how anyone can have any confidence that this is the "real" Dvorak that we will see over the next few years if we were to re-sign him. His bounce back year should get him a decent contract on the FA market and honestly I wish him the best, but it just doesn't make sense for it to be us to sign him.

What part of his game do you think isn't the "real Dvorak"?

He's 29.
Well below his career best ppg pace.
Playing the lowest toi/g of his career.
Lowest goal total (full season) & 3rd lowest sh %.

What he has going for him is that he seems to have fully embraced his role on this team, he's strong in the face off circle and his overall defensive game shows maturity.

None of that seems unlikely to continue if he did return, and his low production doesn't appear tied to physical decline so it's reasonable to expect him to be able to match/maintain the ~10g/30pt output he's provided this year.

It would be foolish to bet on, or pay him to provide top 6 C level play, I'd agree there. But if he's in a bottom 6 C role next year here or elsewhere I bet he continues to be a valuable contributor in that role wherever he lands. Smart hockey player that has figured out his most effective NHL role and is riding his first healthy season in 5 years is what I see.

 

[26Mats]

Would like to keep Dvo around as well on a 1-2 year deal. But man is our forward lines ever crowded (assuming they re-sign only one of Dvo or Armia):

CC - Suzuki - Slaf
Laine - newhook - Demidov
Gallagher - Dvo - Anderson
Heineman - Evans - ???

That's one spot up for grabs next season. Kappenen? Then what about our 2C?

I think we are going to see some shit go down this summer. Even if they UFA sign Bennett for ex, that is too many forwards. They will have to trade some

And Newhook shouldn't be the 2c.

And I'd keep Dach as a project before signing Dvo for three years. So I don't see room for Dvo - unless Dach, or other forwards are part of the package to bring in the 2c

CC - Suzuki - Slaf
Laine - 2c - Demidov
Dach - Newhook - Anderson
Heineman - Evans - Gallagher/Dvo/Armia

Kapanen, Beck, Roy developing in Laval and available as injury replacement call ups.

But we'll see. Maybe one or both of Laine or Dach will be moved and there will be room for all three of Dvo, Gally, and Armia.

 

[Habs]

Should he stay or should he go. He has been playing good hockey lately.

I hope Kent doesn't fall for this BS. Soon as he's resigned, he will suck , like clockwork

 

[Sorinth]

What part of his game do you think isn't the "real Dvorak"?

He's 29.
Well below his career best ppg pace.
Playing the lowest toi/g of his career.
Lowest goal total (full season) & 3rd lowest sh %.

What he has going for him is that he seems to have fully embraced his role on this team, he's strong in the face off circle and his overall defensive game shows maturity.

None of that seems unlikely to continue if he did return, and his low production doesn't appear tied to physical decline so it's reasonable to expect him to be able to match/maintain the ~10g/30pt output he's provided this year.

It would be foolish to bet on, or pay him to provide top 6 C level play, I'd agree there. But if he's in a bottom 6 C role next year here or elsewhere I bet he continues to be a valuable contributor in that role wherever he lands. Smart hockey player that has figured out his most effective NHL role and is riding his first healthy season in 5 years is what I see.

Consistency.

And to be clear I was talking about his most recent play. He's got 13 points in 19 games since the break, that Dvorak is making people think wow maybe we should re-sign him, but it's an illusion it won't be sustainable. So like I said I'm happy for him and wish him the best, he's come up big at a very important time and he deserves praise for it. It also shows how the narrative that it's Suzuki/Hutson alone is false. But it shouldn't change our plans this summer.

 

[Price is Wright]

People keep saying he's playing great this year. Is he? He had 33 points in 56 games in his first full season with Montreal. He has 30 in 75 now. He's older and was making $4.45M.

There were people here screaming bloody murder at the idea of paying Jake Evans more than $3.5M and he's got 33 points right now, which is tied for the most Dvorak has ever put up as a Hab.

Dvorak is a dime a dozen bottom six forward with a left shot and some faceoff ability. Dime a dozen. You can find a guy like that for a PTO.

Let him walk.

 

[Seb]

People keep saying he's playing great this year. Is he? He had 33 points in 56 games in his first full season with Montreal. He has 30 in 75 now. He's older and was making $4.45M.

There were people here screaming bloody murder at the idea of paying Jake Evans more than $3.5M and he's got 33 points right now, which is tied for the most Dvorak has ever put up as a Hab.

Dvorak is a dime a dozen bottom six forward with a left shot and some faceoff ability. Dime a dozen. You can find a guy like that for a PTO.

Let him walk.

IMO it will depend on Hughes' ability to trade for a 2C. If he does, then there's no room for Dvorak with Evans and Kapanen. Otherwise, he probably gets offered a short contract.

 

[Price is Wright]

IMO it will depend on Hughes' ability to trade for a 2C. If he does, then there's no room for Dvorak with Evans and Kapanen. Otherwise, he probably gets offered a short contract.

To me it doesn't depend on it. Dvorak doesn't fit now. He didn't fit last year either. He's just playing well recently. Habs are playing great now without a 2C. Dvorak doesn't fill a need. We have plenty of guys who can play bottom six C. Dvorak was overpriced and redundant.

 

[Sorinth]

People keep saying he's playing great this year. Is he? He had 33 points in 56 games in his first full season with Montreal. He has 30 in 75 now. He's older and was making $4.45M.

There were people here screaming bloody murder at the idea of paying Jake Evans more than $3.5M and he's got 33 points right now, which is tied for the most Dvorak has ever put up as a Hab.

Dvorak is a dime a dozen bottom six forward with a left shot and some faceoff ability. Dime a dozen. You can find a guy like that for a PTO.

Let him walk.

He can be having a good year and still be overpaid.

Also I doubt even the ones who want him re-signed want to do it anywhere close to his current #s. If the plan is go out and get some veteran center who can PK and is good on faceoffs then there's an argument for just sticking with Dvorak because 4.45m won't be what he signs for whoever it ends up being.

But we shouldn't be going out there and trying to get someone who brings the exact same things Dvorak brings just cheaper. We should be trying to upgrade the position, ideally with someone younger who is more dynamic.

 

[Miller Time]

Consistency.

His production this year is consistent with most stronger bottom 6 players...

They have the talent to be top 6 players, but lack the consistency for it.

Heck, poehling is a ppg player his past 11 games.

And to be clear I was talking about his most recent play. He's got 13 points in 19 games since the break, that Dvorak is making people think wow maybe we should re-sign him, but it's an illusion it won't be sustainable.

Anyone wanting to re-sign him based on his hot streak is in line for disappointment, no doubt.

But disagree that it's an illusion... it's how top bottom 6 players go. Stretches of high productivity with stretches of low production.

What has been pretty consistent from him all year (& even last season where he didnt have any high production stretches) has been his overall play. Thats what makes him worthy of bringing back if hes ok to play that role and be paid for that, rather than seeking top ufa $ from a team foolishenoughto think the .8ppg production can be sustainedover a full season.

So like I said I'm happy for him and wish him the best, he's come up big at a very important time and he deserves praise for it. It also shows how the narrative that it's Suzuki/Hutson alone is false. But it shouldn't change our plans this susummer.

Agree to disagree

 

[Sorinth]

His production this year is consistent with most stronger bottom 6 players...

They have the talent to be top 6 players, but lack the consistency for it.

Heck, poehling is a ppg player his past 11 games.


Anyone wanting to re-sign him based on his hot streak is in line for disappointment, no doubt.

But disagree that it's an illusion... it's how top bottom 6 players go. Stretches of high productivity with stretches of low production.

What has been pretty consistent from him all year (& even last season where he didnt have any high production stretches) has been his overall play. Thats what makes him worthy of bringing back if hes ok to play that role and be paid for that, rather than seeking top ufa $ from a team foolishenoughto think the .8ppg production can be sustainedover a full season.



Agree to disagree

Up until this years there has been consistency issues related to effort not just points, though it's been overstated by some fans. Like I said from the start he's had a good year, there's teams where Dvorak will make sense, we just aren't one of those teams. We are likely looking for a top-6 C, which pushes Dach/Newhook down onto the 3rd line, we've got Beck/Kapanen who will be pushing for that spot and bring a more dynamic element, and we have Evans whose there as that as main shutdown guy. Dvorak just isn't a good fit moving forward.

 

[Andrei79]

People keep saying he's playing great this year. Is he? He had 33 points in 56 games in his first full season with Montreal. He has 30 in 75 now. He's older and was making $4.45M.

There were people here screaming bloody murder at the idea of paying Jake Evans more than $3.5M and he's got 33 points right now, which is tied for the most Dvorak has ever put up as a Hab.

Dvorak is a dime a dozen bottom six forward with a left shot and some faceoff ability. Dime a dozen. You can find a guy like that for a PTO.

Let him walk.

It's not about his production.

His role is clear this year, that is a third line shutdown center who feeds his two wingers. Gallagher has been one of the best 5 on 5 goal scorers per TOI this year. He gives his wingers room to play their game and he's been excellent defensively. Had he converted on his many, many chances he'd easily be over 40 points this year.

I've been a big Dvorak critic, but I've liked him quite a bit this year. He's playing the Plekanec/Danault role without the puck.

 

[Tyson]

It's not about his production.

His role is clear this year, that is a third line shutdown center who feeds his two wingers. Gallagher has been one of the best 5 on 5 goal scorers per TOI this year. He gives his wingers room to play their game and he's been excellent defensively. Had he converted on his many, many chances he'd easily be over 40 points this year.

I've been a big Dvorak critic, but I've liked him quite a bit this year. He's playing the Plekanec/Danault role without the puck.

He has been solid.

 

[Miller Time]

Up until this years there has been consistency issues related to effort not just points, though it's been overstated by some fans.

Injuries have been a major issue, on top of adapting to the style of play MSL has been implementing. I suspect the fan assumption that effort was lagging (of which I shared) was a faulty conclusion.

Like I said from the start he's had a good year, there's teams where Dvorak will make sense, we just aren't one of those teams. [/QUOTE

Disagree... Proof is in the pudding as they say.

We are likely looking for a top-6 C, which pushes Dach/Newhook down onto the 3rd line, we've got Beck/Kapanen who will be pushing for that spot and bring a more dynamic element, and we have Evans whose there as that as main shutdown guy. Dvorak just isn't a good fit moving forward.

Neither Beck nor Kapanen are likely going to be ready to be reliable full season C options if we are focused on being a playoff team next year... And neither Dach nor Newhook are as strong as Dvo in the faceoff circle.

Yes, IF we land that top C upgrade, Dvo becomes obsolete. No disagreement there as previously stated.

 

[Sorinth]

Neither Beck nor Kapanen are likely going to be ready to be reliable full season C options if we are focused on being a playoff team next year... And neither Dach nor Newhook are as strong as Dvo in the faceoff circle.

It's unlikely for any 3C to really be the difference between making the playoffs or not. We are looking good for making the playoffs this year, we are adding Demidov and likely doing something with our capspace, on top of the expected growth of guys like Hutson, Guhle, Slafkovsky, etc... Something will have gone seriously wrong if we are wishing we had signed Dvorak.

And yeah Dvo is better on faceoffs, but the others have things they are better at like skating. I'd also point out that saying they aren't ready to be a reliable full time C ignores the fact that Dvo isn't realiable over a full season either.