Chris Chelios - What's his legacy in Montreal?

[BenchBrawl]

Again, those three guys have specific moments in hockey history where they ranked as the best defenseman on the planet.

Whats the span for Chelios?
86 ? Maybe.
93 Spear heading the two top teams in the league, Bourque and Chelios finished close again, Chelly got a bit more 1st place votes while having less points and less goals... and a massive 60 shot deficit ont he counter. Bourque was a machine, probably the best defensive defenseman to ever live AND he put up 340 shot that year. He also had less powerplay points than Chelios, who scored a massive forty of his points on the PP. Id be one of those that would be leaning hard on Bourque here. Top it all off the second best D behind Chelios had 53 to Don Sweeneys 34... I mean, maybe you can call him better by a hair.
94 he surely wasnt better than Coffey who put up a legendary run with the Wings.
95 Bourque actually got more first place vote than Chelios that year, quite a ridiculous turn of event.

Those are awfully short spans (86 and 93) to be considered the best. Thats what matters to me, and then were only talking about the Habs too, for Subban, Lapointe and Markov.

OK but the fact that Chelios was competing, and sometimes beating, a prime Raymond Bourque should be a point in his favor, not against him. There is no defenseman as good as Ray Bourque in the current era. If Bourque was there, Subban doesn't win any Norris neither.

Much harder to be considered "the best in the world" when you play against Raymond Bourque, with Paul Coffey in the mix too, then Scott Stevens and a few others like Brian Leetch and Al MacInnis, to name a few. The 1990s were a very strong era for defensemen, the 2010s were very weak.

Brad Park wasn't considered the best defenseman for any stretch of time neither, and same for Larry Robinson, but that's what happens when you play at the same time as Bobby Orr and Denis Potvin.

 

[Not The One]

Again, those three guys have specific moments in hockey history where they ranked as the best defenseman on the planet.

Whats the span for Chelios?
86 ? Maybe.
93 Spear heading the two top teams in the league, Bourque and Chelios finished close again, Chelly got a bit more 1st place votes while having less points and less goals... and a massive 60 shot deficit ont he counter. Bourque was a machine, probably the best defensive defenseman to ever live AND he put up 340 shot that year. He also had less powerplay points than Chelios, who scored a massive forty of his points on the PP. Id be one of those that would be leaning hard on Bourque here. Top it all off the second best D behind Chelios had 53 to Don Sweeneys 34... I mean, maybe you can call him better by a hair.
94 he surely wasnt better than Coffey who put up a legendary run with the Wings.
95 Bourque actually got more first place vote than Chelios that year, quite a ridiculous turn of event.

Those are awfully short spans (86 and 93) to be considered the best. Thats what matters to me, and then were only talking about the Habs too, for Subban, Lapointe and Markov.

Subban won his ONLY Norris in a 48 game season by 66 first place votes compared to 65 for Suter. Now he's done at 30.

He has no business being mentioned in the same page as any of these other Dmen.

Good grief...

 

[Mrb1p]

OK but the fact that Chelios was competing, and sometimes beating, a prime Raymond Bourque should be a point in his favor, not against him. There is no defenseman as good as Ray Bourque in the current era. If Bourque was there, Subban doesn't win any Norris neither.

Much harder to be considered "the best in the world" when you play against Raymond Bourque, with Paul Coffey in the mix too, then Scott Stevens and a few others like Brian Leetch and Al MacInnis, to name a few. The 1990s were a very strong era for defensemen, the 2010s were very weak.

Brad Park wasn't considered the best defenseman for any stretch of time neither, and same for Larry Robinson, but that's what happens when you play at the same time as Bobby Orr and Denis Potvin.

But then you look at the 2010s and theres Karlsson, Subban, Keith, Hedman, Doughty, Chara, Weber, heck, Even Pronger and Lidstrom if you want to count 2010.

Theres only one name that stands out in these two groups and its Bourque, thats for sure. Sadly, you don't get to just erase the best defenseman of an era, it doesn't make Chelios better to erase him. I peronally think that the 2010s are the most competitive years for defenders after the 70s. (Potvin, Orr, Robinson, Lapointe, Bourque, Savard, Salming, White, Park.)

 

[Mrb1p]

Subban won his ONLY Norris in a 48 game season by 66 first place votes compared to 65 for Suter. Now he's done at 30.

He has no business being mentioned in the same page as any of these other Dmen.

Good grief...

Ah, it is true, I didn't remember how hated Subban was around here.

 

[Habsfan18]

Consider the eras they played in.

Take Chelios, Keith and Karlsson. Now compare their Norris voting records while also keeping in mind their level of competition for that award.

I mean, it’s really not debatable. And I mean no disrespect to Keith or Karlsson. But historically, they are not at the level of Chelios. As @BenchBrawl stated, look no further than the fact that Chelios had Ray Bourque to compete with as well, who was still playing at a very high level. And many others as well that he mentioned.

I think we’re seeing some recency bias here.

 

[BenchBrawl]

But then you look at the 2010s and theres Karlsson, Subban, Keith, Hedman, Doughty, Chara, Weber, heck, Even Pronger and Lidstrom if you want to count 2010.

Theres only one name that stands out in these two groups and its Bourque, thats for sure. Sadly, you don't get to just erase the best defenseman of an era, it doesn't make Chelios better to erase him. I peronally think that the 2010s are the most competitive years for defenders after the 70s. (Potvin, Orr, Robinson, Lapointe, Bourque, Savard, Salming, White, Park.)

I literally don't know what to respond to this. It's so over-the-top that I don't know where to start, so I won't.

Let's just agree to disagree.

My pretention is that the competition for Norris votes in the 1990s was significantly tougher than the 2000s and 2010s. People can judge for themselves.

 

[ahmedou]

All-Star Party Defenceman.

 

[Mrb1p]

Consider the eras they played in.

Take Chelios, Keith and Karlsson. Now compare their Norris voting records while also keeping in mind their level of competition for that award.

I mean, it’s really not debatable. And I mean no disrespect to Keith or Karlsson. But historically, they are not at the level of Chelios. As @BenchBrawl stated, look no further than the fact that Chelios had Ray Bourque to compete with as well, who was still playing at a very high level. And many others as well that he mentioned.

I think we’re seeing some recency bias here.

I did keep in mind the level of competition, the 2010s are stronger than the 90s in almost every single way.

[MOD]

I literally don't know what to respond to this. It's so over-the-top that I don't know where to start, so I won't.

Let's just agree to disagree.

My pretention is that the competition for Norris votes in the 1990s was significantly tougher than the 2000s and 2010s. People can judge for themselves.

Yeah, I know, nostalgia is a hell of a drug, I do like to keep an unbiased eye though. Karlsson, Keith, Subban, Hedman, doughty, Weber, Lidstrom, Pronger, Chara, Carlson, Burns, Giordano, Jones, Letang, Pietrangelo, Suter is a better crop than what the 90s got, even if Bourque is far ahead. I do think the top 3ish is fairly close though, to the 2010s. If you consider Bourque that gives a massive boost, Chelios that hangs with anyone, Leetch that peaked really high... but after that Housley, Pittsburgh Coffey, Ozolinsh, Macinnis, Stevens... Not as competitive.

Its hard to gauge, I personally think Bourque is firmly the 2nd best defender (If hes not pushing first for me Id be lying.) ever, but some seem to rank him lower than me. How much does the 2010 pool of 5-6-7 defenders feed off each other in that case ? Id say a lot more than the 90s.

 

[FlatIron]

Beast, stud, warrior, take your pick. The guy was awesome, played hard, played on the edge and crossed that edge many times by being dirty. I'll never forget that 1989 Semi Final vs Hextal and the Flyers, he took out Propp and the next game Hextal was out for blood. It through Hextal off his game, classic shit.

 

[Adriatic]

I guess it depend of the age of the casual fan...

Chelios is clearly the best American dmen of all time for me and he would easily slide in my all time habs top 4

Robinson Harvey
Chelios Savard

Wish he stayed with us longer... I never got the chance to see him play in a MTL uniform but that's the kind of d men I build my D around. Put up points, GREAT leadership, physical and one of the best in his zone

That looks about right. He was an absolute stud.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Yes people said that. There was a span where Dryden will tell you as well. Only Orr was better than Guy Lapoint. But Larry had a physicality and endurance (along with the skill set) to his game that puts him just ahead of Guy.
Yet there were play off games in the 70s where Lapoint was the best player on the ice.
I list Chelly ahead of Markov but behind Lapoint.

Of the big three Lapointe was easily the third best. A healthy Savard was the best of the three but he chose to sacrifice offensive stats and was maybe the greatest penalty killing dman ever to play the game. Lapointe took is spot on the PP and accrued alot of points but Serge was the guy that you wanted on the ice at the most important times. Larry was the flashiest and the most spectacular of the three but was also prone to gaffes.

 

[PaulD]

Both stories are a combination of the fact and fiction. The call to trade Chelios likely came from above and likely had to do with some kind of hanky Panky but probably not Corey wife, and he had a injury but it Was no where near career ending...

I hear ya. In the book Chelly is pretty clear. Chris (with permission) quoted Savard.

The story was not that he fooled around with Coreys wife. The story that remained was he likely could have had he wanted to. Corey was well aware of this. So Chelly had to go. Serge got the order.

 

[googlymoogly]

Of the big three Lapointe was easily the third best. A healthy Savard was the best of the three but he chose to sacrifice offensive stats and was maybe the greatest penalty killing dman ever to play the game. Lapointe took is spot on the PP and accrued alot of points but Serge was the guy that you wanted on the ice at the most important times. Larry was the flashiest and the most spectacular of the three but was also prone to gaffes.

Savard would of taken a few Norris trophies away from Orr if not for his multiple leg injuries. Savard was a skilled offensive dman but changed his game after his injuries slowed him down but he was still so skilled that he made himself a hall of fame career that would of ended most players careers with the injuries he suffered early in his career.

 

[PaulD]

Of the big three Lapointe was easily the third best. A healthy Savard was the best of the three but he chose to sacrifice offensive stats and was maybe the greatest penalty killing dman ever to play the game. Lapointe took is spot on the PP and accrued alot of points but Serge was the guy that you wanted on the ice at the most important times. Larry was the flashiest and the most spectacular of the three but was also prone to gaffes.

Well said.

Side note - Serge never lost a game to the Russians in the 72 Summit Series. Of the 8 games Serge missed three. Canada lost all three. Serge played the other 5 games. Canada won four and tied the other.

Was also crucial in game 7 OT goal that eliminated Cherry and Bruins in 79. On that famous play Serge made a great defensive play then immediately set the play in motion for the Lambert goal.

 

[ahmedou]

Christos Kostas Chelios, drafted in the second round of the 1981 NHL Entrey Draft, 40th over all by the Montreal Canadiens. Played in part of seven season for the Habs, scoring 309 points in 402 games, to go with a a healthy 782 PIM.
Obviously, a member of the Stanley Cup team in 1986 and won the James Norris Trophy in 1989 and an All Star in 1990.
Traded in the summer of 1990, aged 28, to the Chicago Black Hawks and he went on to play an additional 20 years with varying success.

What's his legacy like in Montreal?
To a more casual NHL fan, is he probably better known as a Red Wing?

Ask Corey.

 

[PaulD]

Of the big three Lapointe was easily the third best. A healthy Savard was the best of the three but he chose to sacrifice offensive stats and was maybe the greatest penalty killing dman ever to play the game. Lapointe took is spot on the PP and accrued alot of points but Serge was the guy that you wanted on the ice at the most important times. Larry was the flashiest and the most spectacular of the three but was also prone to gaffes.

Is his book out yet?

If not its due out any day.

Heard Serge say that if he didn't write it, his son said: "dad if you dont write it, I will"

 

[Carey Chant]

He will always be remembered for the Hextall fight which was for a dirty hit on Brian Propp. Propp was lighting up the Habs and Chelios hit him with an elbow that basically changed his career. Does it rank up there with the Stevens on Lindros elbow or the Messier on Modano elbow....maybe not but it was pretty bad.

He's still one of my all time fav Habs, he probably would have been the last player I would have traded.

 

[HabsQC]

 

[BenchBrawl]

Of the big three Lapointe was easily the third best. A healthy Savard was the best of the three but he chose to sacrifice offensive stats and was maybe the greatest penalty killing dman ever to play the game. Lapointe took is spot on the PP and accrued alot of points but Serge was the guy that you wanted on the ice at the most important times. Larry was the flashiest and the most spectacular of the three but was also prone to gaffes.

He is referring to the period before Larry Robinson became a force on the blueline. Remember both Savard and Lapointe were stars before Robinson came into the spotlight.

 

[CHwest]

My strongest Chelios memory is Playfair absolutely rag dolling him. Talk about biting off more than you can chew.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

My strongest Chelios memory is Playfair absolutely rag dolling him. Talk about biting off more than you can chew.

He wasn't much of a fighter that's for sure In his defense, big Larry was one of the better fighters of his era. Even Nilan had a hard time with him.

 

[Deluded Puck]

I literally don't know what to respond to this. It's so over-the-top that I don't know where to start, so I won't.

Let's just agree to disagree.

My pretention is that the competition for Norris votes in the 1990s was significantly tougher than the 2000s and 2010s. People can judge for themselves.

1990’s >> 2010’s >>>>>>> 2000’s IMO. 2000’s era was literally just Pronger, Lindstrom and Chara.

 

[PaulD]

Here are their Norris records (Top 10 only):

Chelios: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 6, 6, 6, 8
Karlsson: 1, 1, 2, 2, 7
Keith: 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 9
Subban: 1, 3, 3
Pronger: 1, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 7, 8
Coffey: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 7, 7, 9

Coffey is the only one in the same ballpark, but Coffey is Coffey. A huge defensive question mark. Sometimes he played decent defense, sometimes not. Chelios was a beast defensively and physically, and before age 35 he was pretty good offensively too.

Now Pronger's Norris record underrates him for sure. Probably the same can be said of Keith.

Subban wasn't the best D in the league for any considerable stretch, as his Norris record shows since his Norris finishes are not consecutive.

That said, Pronger peaked higher than Chelios, but it was for one year only, when he won the Hart. I'd take Pronger in the playoffs over Chelios. Karlsson also peaked very high, but his peak didn't last as long as his Norris recordi ndicate (for a while he was not that good defensively).

Subban doesn't belong in this conversation in any way, shape or form.

In any case, mayyyyybe Pronger has a case, if you stretch it, but the others are not close to Chris Chelios. Coffey is a special, polarizing case which I don't feel like getting into now, so just ignore him for my purpose.

Damn fine post

 

[attachetatuque]

the one that got away...

 

[PaulD]

Excellent