CHL/NCAA

[beastintheeast]

Yes we are losing some good players to the NCAA and probably every year we will lose maybe 10 across the board.

I think however that this is going to be a mess for a couple of years.

NCAA teams are taking a flyer on Ivankovic and Mews for example. They have signed them, but what happens if they decide next year to go pro. Then the NCAA loses out on talent and has to refit. Also NIL groups are not going to be happy giving money to these kids only to see them leave in a hurry.

As to the CIAU money, the league, probably, to a certain point, is happy for OA and 19-year-old players to go as it saves them money.

So far, the kids that have left and will leave are all talent that could have made their NHL teams or are drafted high.

We went through this same scenario with the WHA when it first started.

I do not see the NHLPA or NHL being able to make an agreement for kids to play AHL as an open issue.

Consider that teams are drafting and signing all these NCAA-bound players; they are willingly putting themselves in the same position that they did with the OHL players this year.


Also, remember that we have had a few NCAA players who left the NCAA and came to play here.

Timeis going to decide what happens

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Yes we are losing some good players to the NCAA and probably every year we will lose maybe 10 across the board.

I think however that this is going to be a mess for a couple of years.

NCAA teams are taking a flyer on Ivankovic and Mews for example. They have signed them, but what happens if they decide next year to go pro. Then the NCAA loses out on talent and has to refit. Also NIL groups are not going to be happy giving money to these kids only to see them leave in a hurry.

As to the CIAU money, the league, probably, to a certain point, is happy for OA and 19-year-old players to go as it saves them money.

So far, the kids that have left and will leave are all talent that could have made their NHL teams or are drafted high.

We went through this same scenario with the WHA when it first started.

I do not see the NHLPA or NHL being able to make an agreement for kids to play AHL as an open issue.

Consider that teams are drafting and signing all these NCAA-bound players; they are willingly putting themselves in the same position that they did with the OHL players this year.


Also, remember that we have had a few NCAA players who left the NCAA and came to play here.

Timeis going to decide what happens

Schools are pretty much prepared to do this on a year to year basis. The job of a top college coach is a 24/7 job. They meet donors, secure NIL for that current year and beyond. We are in the age of schools getting tight with billionaires to help NIL.

 

[coolhandluc44]

I don’t want this to devolve into whether one is better than the other; however, not one single top rated player leaving the cHL is doing so because they want an education. They are doing it because of either $$$ up front by being paid under the table or over the table with NIL being misused OR because they feel that as 19 year olds, the older players in the NCAA will provide a greater challenge. Both are valid reasons to leave but I don’t think anyone should point to the “College Experience” as a reason. They aren’t experiencing College. They are training for a pro career.

I agree 100% this is not about working towards a bachelors degree for high caliber players that we have seen leaving or rumored to leave (Martone and Misa for example). I think it comes down to in no particular order 1) Facilities 2) playing against older players 3) the option to go to AHL if wanted by both player and team for their D+2 season 4) NIL but there seems to be some confusion how much they will actually get and complications for Canadians in addition to delaying signing your NHL contract. So if I am the CHL can I do anything to counter this and I think they can in part or atleast attempt

1) Facilities: It may not be realistic to have what some of these schools have, but can I get what like an Oshawa has for example? There workout area and team lounge and facilities look pretty nice.
2) Amenities: I mentioned previously about lodging students yourself so they dont live with billets. I know might not be realistic at all. But could you have it where players not in school come to your facility in the morning for their workout and they get a good and healthy lunch. If the team practices in the afternoon or evenings when the high school kids get to the rink, can you again provide a team dinner either onsite or something they can take back home. My point with the food is that you try and not rely on the billets preparing these athletes meals as much as you can.

Is there a great players lounge and study space for players not in high school but doing remote university or college courses.

Are you coaches available full-time during the week for these guys?

3) Playing against older players: This is where I think you have to concede if your the CHL that there is a new landscape and not only are you going to be in a battle for the best D+2 players, but now even the D+1 players. I think you have to concede that players who are 19 or D+2 can play AHL. My thought being that I wonder if some might leave for NCAA for their D+1 season with the sole intentions of getting to the AHL one year sooner. So maybe if these guys know they can get to the AHL one year sooner they maybe might just stick out out for one more year in their D+1 season. Maybe you can try and make it so that only 1st or 2nd round picks can do this. And maybe for the high profile guys(aka 1st rounders) you allow that if they cant make the NHL, they can play 15 or 20 AHL games in your D+1 season. Would that satisfy the itch to play against older/bigger players for a Martone or Misa etc? I mean when you factor in 20 regular season games plus 5 or 6 NHL/AHL pre season, that is half a NCAA season rate there

Is it stands I would rather have these guys for some of the season because now I'm loosing them entirely

4) NIL $ not going to touch this but my only question is are these guys not allowed to get endorsement money while playing in the CHL?

I recognize that the quantity of players leaving early might be low, but it is the quality of players leaving that concerns me the most. Yes it will be harder for younger players moving forward to play for high profile NCAA programs, but the top notch players (Misa, Martone etc) can and those are the players you need to worry about leaving because the are the reason casual fans are paying $ to see.

I think you can either a) stand pat and do nothing and watch the majority or all of your NHL 1st round draft picks leave rate after they are drafted or b) invest money in your facilities, and be flexible as to when and how guys can play in the AHL in order to keep them in some capacity

 

[OMG67]

I agree 100% this is not about working towards a bachelors degree for high caliber players that we have seen leaving or rumored to leave (Martone and Misa for example). I think it comes down to in no particular order 1) Facilities 2) playing against older players 3) the option to go to AHL if wanted by both player and team for their D+2 season 4) NIL but there seems to be some confusion how much they will actually get and complications for Canadians in addition to delaying signing your NHL contract. So if I am the CHL can I do anything to counter this and I think they can in part or atleast attempt

1) Facilities: It may not be realistic to have what some of these schools have, but can I get what like an Oshawa has for example? There workout area and team lounge and facilities look pretty nice.
2) Amenities: I mentioned previously about lodging students yourself so they dont live with billets. I know might not be realistic at all. But could you have it where players not in school come to your facility in the morning for their workout and they get a good and healthy lunch. If the team practices in the afternoon or evenings when the high school kids get to the rink, can you again provide a team dinner either onsite or something they can take back home. My point with the food is that you try and not rely on the billets preparing these athletes meals as much as you can.

Is there a great players lounge and study space for players not in high school but doing remote university or college courses.

Are you coaches available full-time during the week for these guys?

3) Playing against older players: This is where I think you have to concede if your the CHL that there is a new landscape and not only are you going to be in a battle for the best D+2 players, but now even the D+1 players. I think you have to concede that players who are 19 or D+2 can play AHL. My thought being that I wonder if some might leave for NCAA for their D+1 season with the sole intentions of getting to the AHL one year sooner. So maybe if these guys know they can get to the AHL one year sooner they maybe might just stick out out for one more year in their D+1 season. Maybe you can try and make it so that only 1st or 2nd round picks can do this. And maybe for the high profile guys(aka 1st rounders) you allow that if they cant make the NHL, they can play 15 or 20 AHL games in your D+1 season. Would that satisfy the itch to play against older/bigger players for a Martone or Misa etc? I mean when you factor in 20 regular season games plus 5 or 6 NHL/AHL pre season, that is half a NCAA season rate there

Is it stands I would rather have these guys for some of the season because now I'm loosing them entirely

4) NIL $ not going to touch this but my only question is are these guys not allowed to get endorsement money while playing in the CHL?

I recognize that the quantity of players leaving early might be low, but it is the quality of players leaving that concerns me the most. Yes it will be harder for younger players moving forward to play for high profile NCAA programs, but the top notch players (Misa, Martone etc) can and those are the players you need to worry about leaving because the are the reason casual fans are paying $ to see.

I think you can either a) stand pat and do nothing and watch the majority or all of your NHL 1st round draft picks leave rate after they are drafted or b) invest money in your facilities, and be flexible as to when and how guys can play in the AHL in order to keep them in some capacity

I think you have detailed this quite well. @Otto has asked the question about what teams these players are leaving. I think that is a very relevant question when it comes to facilities and amenities. That said, Henry Mews is leaving and Ottawa has outstanding facilities and amenities and he lived at home. The highschool students go to Blythe Academy and the campus is located at Lansdowne Park. So they can go from school to the rink in 5 minutes walk!

We simply do not have enough data yet to decipher this without the players actually coming out and saying way they are leaving (and be honest).

Do the teams have work to do? Yes. Should they pay players? No. Paying players opens a bad door. I am more than willing to trade away the most elite players in the league in their D+2 season to protect the welfare of the majority of players by offering the scholarships/education.

I think we will see a lot of situations where the high end D1 schools sign these players and they come in at 18 and struggle against the older more experienced players. Imagine a top prospects team from the OHL lining up against St FX. See how that works out. I think it will be difficult for some of these players to get reasonable ice time. The graduating OA’s are typically more productive and mature than the 18 year olds, even the top prospects. They will get the ice time.

I think we will have to wait and see how this plays out. Too many players at age 18 are making commitments and I am not entirely sure the NCAA is the right place for them. Maybe D+2? Sure. 19 year olds. Fine. The ones that are too good for the CHL but not good enough for NHL. But, if they change the rules and allow 19 year olds to play AHL, then I think all of this goes away. We’d lose all those players anyway.

We will have to wait and see what happens to players in the London organization. Will HB leave? Medvedev? Will NHL teams start to hold off signing players like Dickinson and Senneke (who have both signed) hoping they go NCAA so they can hold their rights longer and see whether they reach their ceiling? Will players want to hold off signing and take on added risk? We’ve seen a lot of players make commitments but how many of those players are going to turn down an ELC if offered one?

 

[coolhandluc44]

I think you have detailed this quite well. @Otto has asked the question about what teams these players are leaving. I think that is a very relevant question when it comes to facilities and amenities. That said, Henry Mews is leaving and Ottawa has outstanding facilities and amenities and he lived at home. The highschool students go to Blythe Academy and the campus is located at Lansdowne Park. So they can go from school to the rink in 5 minutes walk!

We simply do not have enough data yet to decipher this without the players actually coming out and saying way they are leaving (and be honest).

Do the teams have work to do? Yes. Should they pay players? No. Paying players opens a bad door. I am more than willing to trade away the most elite players in the league in their D+2 season to protect the welfare of the majority of players by offering the scholarships/education.

I think we will see a lot of situations where the high end D1 schools sign these players and they come in at 18 and struggle against the older more experienced players. Imagine a top prospects team from the OHL lining up against St FX. See how that works out. I think it will be difficult for some of these players to get reasonable ice time. The graduating OA’s are typically more productive and mature than the 18 year olds, even the top prospects. They will get the ice time.

I think we will have to wait and see how this plays out. Too many players at age 18 are making commitments and I am not entirely sure the NCAA is the right place for them. Maybe D+2? Sure. 19 year olds. Fine. The ones that are too good for the CHL but not good enough for NHL. But, if they change the rules and allow 19 year olds to play AHL, then I think all of this goes away. We’d lose all those players anyway.

We will have to wait and see what happens to players in the London organization. Will HB leave? Medvedev? Will NHL teams start to hold off signing players like Dickinson and Senneke (who have both signed) hoping they go NCAA so they can hold their rights longer and see whether they reach their ceiling? Will players want to hold off signing and take on added risk? We’ve seen a lot of players make commitments but how many of those players are going to turn down an ELC if offered one?

Maybe the CHL team does not pay the player (other than their stipend). But if Bobs Pizza wants to pay the player $2000 to say he has the pizza in town while airing a commercial in the arena would that not be ok? It was interesting listening to Elliot Freidman's 32 thoughts podcast today where they touched upon this topic. One thing they said that was interesting is that players have until January 10th to come back if they want. So it will be interesting to see how many go and how many come back.

 

[OMG67]

Maybe the CHL team does not pay the player (other than their stipend). But if Bobs Pizza wants to pay the player $2000 to say he has the pizza in town while airing a commercial in the arena would that not be ok? It was interesting listening to Elliot Freidman's 32 thoughts podcast today where they touched upon this topic. One thing they said that was interesting is that players have until January 10th to come back if they want. So it will be interesting to see how many go and how many come back.

There can be a lot of issues with that. For example, richer teams can work around it. What would stop a team from offering a $10k package to a local sponsor and the sponsor pays players effectively lowering the sponsor package to $1k?

Will a larger market have significant advantages keeping/signing players because they can shift money to sponsors to give to players under the table?

I’m not sure we want to go down that road. I think we’d need to see some serious oversight. It will lead to a wider gap between the haves and have nots.

 

[tomschman]

The high caliber plyers that are leaving the CHL early are all going to top programs. There are about 12 top programs in the NCAA, and most of them are in the big 4 football conferences. Add to those North Dakota and Boston University. The remainder of the schools probably won't have the NIL money available to successfully recruit these top players. So, the CHL will lose a handful of players. In many cases these players will have wanted to play NCAA and wouldn't have signed with the CHL under the old rule.

I also don't see the top CHL programs such as London, Quebec, Halifax, etc. losing players to the NCAA.

 

[coolhandluc44]

The high caliber plyers that are leaving the CHL early are all going to top programs. There are about 12 top programs in the NCAA, and most of them are in the big 4 football conferences. Add to those North Dakota and Boston University. The remainder of the schools probably won't have the NIL money available to successfully recruit these top players. So, the CHL will lose a handful of players. In many cases these players will have wanted to play NCAA and wouldn't have signed with the CHL under the old rule.

I also don't see the top CHL programs such as London, Quebec, Halifax, etc. losing players to the NCAA.

The underage players who are leaving now, if they wanted to have gone NCAA why were they in the CHL before this rule change? And the underage guys who have committed or rumoured I’m going to assume would have been highly recruited by NCAA schools in their CHL draft year. Unless these programs did not have offers to these players back in the CHL draft year.

The problem with high end teams like London, is that you can’t be the only high end program in the league if you want to retain your high end players after the NHL draft years. As much as they run great programs, if the rest of league has lost all their best players early to NCAA what am I playing against? I think that is why Dale Hunter has sounded concerned. I think he knows going forward that if wants the next Easton Cowan or Sam Dickenson to stay after their NHL draft, they need to play against very high calibre NHL drafts players. London can’t be the only team that players want to stay with

 

[RayzorIsDull]

There can be a lot of issues with that. For example, richer teams can work around it. What would stop a team from offering a $10k package to a local sponsor and the sponsor pays players effectively lowering the sponsor package to $1k?

Will a larger market have significant advantages keeping/signing players because they can shift money to sponsors to give to players under the table?

I’m not sure we want to go down that road. I think we’d need to see some serious oversight. It will lead to a wider gap between the haves and have nots.

Another thing to keep in mind if this happened would these players become employees in regards to tax implications. How would this impact players in Saginaw/Flint/Erie? Two different states and how would tax laws impact them? Each state passed their own laws for NIL because nothing has ever gone to congress. Can the OHL even pull this off or would it have to come from the CHL? Then you have a bunch of provinces looking that over. As well as states like Michigan/Pennsylvania/Oregon/Washington etc.. I can't see how every team could compete in the CHL. At least in the states those players have freedom of choice where to go.

 

[Ferguson Jenkins]

Justin Poirier Commits To University Of Maine

A high-scoring prospect for the Carolina Hurricanes has committed to the University of Maine. Visit PHR for more details.

www.prohockeyrumors.com

RIP CHL

 

[beastintheeast]

Another thing to keep in mind if this happened would these players become employees in regards to tax implications. How would this impact players in Saginaw/Flint/Erie? Two different states and how would tax laws impact them? Each state passed their own laws for NIL because nothing has ever gone to congress. Can the OHL even pull this off or would it have to come from the CHL? Then you have a bunch of provinces looking that over. As well as states like Michigan/Pennsylvania/Oregon/Washington etc.. I can't see how every team could compete in the CHL. At least in the states those players have freedom of choice where to go.

We went throu this with the WHA the world wsa going to fall. As to players getting paid for endorsements, I remind people that the reason players in the CHL were not eligible was they made a living from hockey with the little amount the team paid them. If players actually get money, then they will be ineligible for NCAA

As to NIL watch Mews DAD. Remember, he went through the NCAA

The league is doing the right thing. Wait and see

We have players that think the grass is greener on the other side.
We have NCAA teams that are bringing in these kids that may only play a year.
The OHL is bringing in players that may play one or 2 years.

This season is a joke,

You will see layers going down and we already see players coming north.

The GM's strategy, as Hunter says, will involve a whole lot more work and possibly a change in the contracts that they have with players.

As to not having a lot of older players, that is proven wrong by the USHL. In that they have older players as well as kids who are committed.

As to the AHL argument, if players use the NCAA as a year here, and I am leaving to play AHL first, the NHL teams have to sign these players. Second, you will see the NCAA teams do much better vetting because they do not want players who are not there for their system and the team.

The best scenario is simply let it play out, have the league vet players better, as to the AHL fine, but have the players return to the CHL for one year, then let them compete in NHL and AHL training camps.

MSN

 

[OMG67]

Another thing to keep in mind if this happened would these players become employees in regards to tax implications. How would this impact players in Saginaw/Flint/Erie? Two different states and how would tax laws impact them? Each state passed their own laws for NIL because nothing has ever gone to congress. Can the OHL even pull this off or would it have to come from the CHL? Then you have a bunch of provinces looking that over. As well as states like Michigan/Pennsylvania/Oregon/Washington etc.. I can't see how every team could compete in the CHL. At least in the states those players have freedom of choice where to go.

True. It works because they are student athletes.

 

[OMG67]

We went throu this with the WHA the world wsa going to fall. As to players getting paid for endorsements, I remind people that the reason players in the CHL were not eligible was they made a living from hockey with the little amount the team paid them. If players actually get money, then they will be ineligible for NCAA

As to NIL watch Mews DAD. Remember, he went through the NCAA

The league is doing the right thing. Wait and see

We have players that think the grass is greener on the other side.
We have NCAA teams that are bringing in these kids that may only play a year.
The OHL is bringing in players that may play one or 2 years.

This season is a joke,

You will see layers going down and we already see players coming north.

The GM's strategy, as Hunter says, will involve a whole lot more work and possibly a change in the contracts that they have with players.

As to not having a lot of older players, that is proven wrong by the USHL. In that they have older players as well as kids who are committed.

As to the AHL argument, if players use the NCAA as a year here, and I am leaving to play AHL first, the NHL teams have to sign these players. Second, you will see the NCAA teams do much better vetting because they do not want players who are not there for their system and the team.

The best scenario is simply let it play out, have the league vet players better, as to the AHL fine, but have the players return to the CHL for one year, then let them compete in NHL and AHL training camps.

MSN

The USHL has older players but all the best older players are in NCAA. Ir is sort of the reverse of the CHL previously. Now we may see the older players in the CHL are either signed NHL prospects or lessor players that are neither NCAA calibre nor pro level prospects. It will be weird this year.

 

[beastintheeast]

The USHL has older players but all the best older players are in NCAA. Ir is sort of the reverse of the CHL previously. Now we may see the older players in the CHL are either signed NHL prospects or lessor players that are neither NCAA calibre nor pro level prospects. It will be weird this year.

I think this year is going to be a mess with everyone figuring things out.

 

[OMG67]

I think this year is going to be a mess with everyone figuring things out.

I CANNOT argue with that. I think things are so up in the air that the prediction thread is going to be a mess…

 

[Roger le hare]

The NCAA is a total mess right now and it’s even worse in football and basketball OHL will put in new rules with compensation for teams losing committed players early with compensatory draft picks based on where they were drafted and how many years of eligibility they have left. They will also protect teams like Sudbury, who gave up a lot for a player like Mews who left with eligibility remaining.

 

[Kingpin794]

Think of the situation this way. It's moneyball now (or moneypuck? whatever). You have 3 new pools to pick from: Americans, Canadians that were USHL/BCHL bound, and more Europeans (especially Russians). You are trying to recreating the NHL talent in the aggregate. Out of those 3 pools, if you even get 1.1 NHL draft players for every one you lose early, you still increase the overall concentration of NHL talent by 10%.

Do we care if the player from those pools is a top 10 pick?

*points at Pete*

No we do not.

Why?

Because they are a potential NHL Drafted talent

 

[Kingpin794]

The NCAA is a total mess right now and it’s even worse in football and basketball OHL will put in new rules with compensation for teams losing committed players early with compensatory draft picks based on where they were drafted and how many years of eligibility they have left. They will also protect teams like Sudbury, who gave up a lot for a player like Mews who left with eligibility remaining.

Fat f'ing chance of that. GM's need to do a better job of understanding their player's intentions. They'll adjust.

 

[EvenSteven]

The NCAA is a total mess right now and it’s even worse in football and basketball OHL will put in new rules with compensation for teams losing committed players early with compensatory draft picks based on where they were drafted and how many years of eligibility they have left. They will also protect teams like Sudbury, who gave up a lot for a player like Mews who left with eligibility remaining.

Fat f'ing chance of that. GM's need to do a better job of understanding their player's intentions. They'll adjust.

I think what you will see, are conditions included in trades, especially for star players. If a team trades for a young player, you will likely see conditional pick(s) included should that player jump to before his junior eligibility is up.

It’s one thing to graduate up by making the NHL as an under age. But to make a sideways move to another league like the NCAA? I think teams will cover their asses.

 

[DubCee21]

Justin Poirier Commits To University Of Maine

A high-scoring prospect for the Carolina Hurricanes has committed to the University of Maine. Visit PHR for more details.

www.prohockeyrumors.com

RIP CHL

This is interesting because according to College Commitments, Maine has 31 commitments for 25/26. That seems like more commitments than actual roster spots. Some of them will surely go back to their Jr teams.

 

[Kingpin794]

I think what you will see, are conditions included in trades, especially for star players. If a team trades for a young player, you will likely see conditional pick(s) included should that player jump to before his junior eligibility is up.

It’s one thing to graduate up by making the NHL as an under age. But to make a sideways move to another league like the NCAA? I think teams will cover their asses.

That I agree on. Those are the type's of adjustments GM's will make. Compensation from the league it self as Roger mentioned won't happen.

 

[Kingpin794]

This is interesting because according to College Commitments, Maine has 31 commitments for 25/26. That seems like more commitments than actual roster spots. Some of them will surely go back to their Jr teams.

I mean they'll make room for guys like Poirier. What GM's should do is reach out those those kids that are being pushed out by the incoming CHL stars and offer them spots on CHL rosters.

 

[beastintheeast]

I think what you will see, are conditions included in trades, especially for star players. If a team trades for a young player, you will likely see conditional pick(s) included should that player jump to before his junior eligibility is up.

It’s one thing to graduate up by making the NHL as an under age. But to make a sideways move to another league like the NCAA? I think teams will cover their asses.

That I agree on. Those are the type's of adjustments GM's will make. Compensation from the league it self as Roger mentioned won't happen.

Hunter is already on record

The changing landscape, Hunter said, will force teams to ask more questions during their recruitment.

“Do you want to play in the CHL?” he said. “You've got to be more specific about what their thoughts are. I totally agree with that. We have to be more thorough with what we're doing now

Teams will ask the right questions. In the case of Mews I don't think anyone took him seriously

 

[coolhandluc44]

Hunter is already on record

The changing landscape, Hunter said, will force teams to ask more questions during their recruitment.

“Do you want to play in the CHL?” he said. “You've got to be more specific about what their thoughts are. I totally agree with that. We have to be more thorough with what we're doing now

Teams will ask the right questions. In the case of Mews I don't think anyone took him seriously

I think that is alot easier said than done. These kids will be coached by their agents to say " of course I want to play in the CHL." or " I wouldn't leave until my OA season". Its no different than a job interview, you say what they think you want them to hear to get the job. And then of course your mind can always change which could be legit

 

[OHL4Life]

This is interesting because according to College Commitments, Maine has 31 commitments for 25/26. That seems like more commitments than actual roster spots. Some of them will surely go back to their Jr teams.

100 percent, most kids who do not have chl expereince or are not nhl draft picks or are under 19 will be pushed off for almost every program