GWT: Champions League Round of 16 Part II

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les Habs

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Sep 21, 2005
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As for your stats, there's once again no real context. You noted how many categories that Kroos was outperforming Rakitic in and yet many of the differences were nominal and/or meaningless. So I'll provide context in a few ways including by demonstrating what the different in per 90 stats would mean over the course of a full 38 match season. Here is what I found, all from Sqawka season to date:

PASSING

Assists: Kroos .13, Rakitic .10 Difference: 1 assist in a full season
Second assists: Kroos 0, Rakitic .05 Difference: 1 secondary assist in a full season
Total passes: Kroos 86.87, Rakitic 85.22 Difference: 62 passes in a full season
Long balls: Kroos 9.80, Rakitic 5.67 Difference: 156 long balls in a full season
Chances created: Kroos 2.67, Rakitic .52 Difference: 81 chances in a full season
Chances created in open play: Kroos 1.2, Rakitic .52 Difference: 25 chances in a full season
Through balls: Kroos .13, Rakitic .10 Difference: 1 through ball in a full season
Total crosses: Kroos 1.87, Rakitic .21 Difference: 63 crosses in a full season
Avg pass length: Kroos 1.21m, Rakitc .86m Difference: .35m

Actual assists: Kroos 2, Rakitic 2

So there's really nothing to write home about here. The long balls stat is the biggest difference, but what constitutes a long ball? And to put that stat into context, the difference in their respective average pass lengths is .35m or just over 1 foot. If you look at the ridiculous video you posted earlier you can also see that a lot of Kroos long balls are sideways passes. On top of that he takes far more crosses and I'd be very curious as to what constitutes a cross. At the end of the day what difference is the long ball making anyway?

The other notable stat here regarding Kroos is chances created. However when you look at chances created in open play it's very clear that what I've been saying all along about this is true. Kroos' chances created are largely coming from free kicks or corners which he takes and Rakitic largely does not. Then as I've also noted you have the fact that Kroos' role is more of a playmaker than Rakitic. This however hasn't translated into any more real assists, though you've already made the ridiculous argument that it's all down Madrid's finishing.

Then that leaves us with assists. At the current rate Kroos would have on more assist than Rakitic which is very nominal considering he takes free kicks, corners and has more of a playmaker role. Then when you consider second assists, and I'll be the first to say that I'd like to know what exactly that is, Rakitic has one more, though it should be noted I rounded down there (you don't get .5 of something when it's all said and done) and Rakitic's difference was 1.9, so nearly 2. Both of Kroos' assists essentially came from set plays (again, something I said from the beginning before looking at the stats). Rakitic's assists came in wins, one a big match against Sevilla away, while Kroos' came against Girona and Villarreal in losses.

All of that considered I'd say that despite Kroos being more of a playmaker, seeing more of the ball relative to the rest of his midfield teammates and more than Rakitic in this regard and Kroos taking free kicks and corners where Rakitic does, their really isn't a difference here when Kroos should be winning this battle.


DEFENSE

Interceptions: Kroos .73, Rakitic 1.94 Difference: 45 interceptions in a full season
Tackles made: Kroos 2.27, Rakitic 1.21 Difference: 40 tackles made in a full season
Tackles won: Kroos 1.4, Rakitic .94 Difference: 17 tackles won in a full season
Tackles success %: Kroos .61, Rakitic .77 Difference: Rakitic about 25% more successful
Ariel duels won: Kroos 2.6, Rakitic 2.26 Difference: 12 ariel duels won in a full season
Dispossess opponent: Kroos .6, Rakitic .73 Difference: 4 dispossesses in a full season
Blocked shots: Kroos .13, Rakitic .26 Difference: 4 blocked shots in a full season
Blocked passes: Kroos .87, Rakitic .68 Difference: 7 blocked passes in a full season
Clearances: Kroos .53, Rakitic 1.1 Difference: 21 clearances in a full season

So there's not a big difference here. I'd say the interceptions are notable. The tackles not as much when you factor in success % as it means that despite the difference in tackles made, the actual tackles won is less than 1 every other match. I will say that Rakitic's role requires him to defend more than Kroos, but then Barça also has more possession.

SHOOTING

Shots: Kroos 1.33, Rakitic 1.31 Difference: Less than one shot in a full season
Shot accuracy: Kroos 42.9%, Rakitic 45.5% Difference: Rakitic about 6% more accurate
Shot conversion: Kroos 0%, Rakitic 12% Difference: Rakitic is 12% more accurate
Shots inside area: Kroos .2, Rakitic .52 Difference: 12 shots inside the area in a full season
Shots outside area: Kroos 1.13, Rakitic .79 Difference: 12 shots outside the area in a full season

Goals: Kroos 0, Rakitic 3

Once again, not much there. Shots are about the same. Rakitic is more accurate, but he takes more shots inside the areas and fewer outside of it. The big decider here is the actual amount of goals themselves. Rakitic not only has a few goals, but 2 of the 3 goals were in big matches. One in a win against Sevilla (different fixture than his assist above) and the other a Clasico winner that just happened to be a World Class chip.

As for what you posted:

"Oh, so now it's "per match" and not per 90 as it was before." etc.

If you want to move the goalposts on the fly then explain why you think that makes sense (unless you can't), but trying to change the framing dishonestly like that is just appalling.

The stats per 90 as you prefer, even so it does little to change the big picture:

Kroos better
Pass success percentage: Kroos 93.4-92.0 Rakitic
Accurate long balls: Kroos 8.7-5.4 Rakitic
Inaccurate short passes: Kroos 4.2-5.4 Rakitic
Attempted tackles: Kroos 3.6-1.8 Rakitic
Key passes: Kroos 2.4-0.5 Rakitic
Fouled: Kroos 2.3-1.7 Rakitic
Tackles won: Kroos 2.0-1.0 Rakitic
Short key passes: Kroos 1.4-0.4 Rakitic
Long key passes: Kroos 1.0-0.1 Rakitic
Passes blocked: Kroos 0.8-0.7 Rakitic
Unsuccessful touches: Kroos 0.6-0.8 Rakitic
Successful dribbles: Kroos 0.6-0.5 Rakitic
Dispossessed: Kroos 0.5-0.7 Rakitic
Unsuccessful dribbles: Kroos 0.2-0.3 Rakitic
Cards: Kroos 0.1-0.2 Rakitic

Tie
Total passes: Kroos 84.8-84.8 Rakitic
Inaccurate long balls: Kroos 1.4-1.4 Rakitic
Fouls: Kroos 0.9-0.9 Rakitic
Aerial duels lost: Kroos 0.6-0.6 Rakitic
Assists: Kroos 0.1-0.1 Rakitic
Caught offside: Kroos 0.1-0.1 Rakitic

Rakitic better
Accurate short passes: Rakitic 72.6-70.4 Kroos
Interceptions: Rakitic 1.8-0.6 Kroos
Aerial duels won: Rakitic 1.1-0.8 Kroos
Dribbled past: Rakitic 0.8-1.7 Kroos
Clearances: Rakitic 0.8-0.4 Kroos
Shots blocked: Rakitic 0.3-0.1 Kroos
Crosses blocked: Rakitic 0.2-0.1 Kroos
Goals: Rakitic 0.1-0.0 Kroos

Again, you provide little context here. I've bolded the stats that I would say are meaningful. What constitutes a key pass though? Regardless of that, it doesn't mean any more assists for Kroos either. And like I said, what of the long balls? Also, I wouldn't say fewer cards makes a player better. There is such a thing as a smart foul and considering Rakitic has only been sent off once I wouldn't call it a big issue. I'm also seeing discrepancies in comparing the stats. I'm not going to say one site is better than the other, but there are differences.

All of the above considered, I'd say Kroos is the better passer, or at least he has more range. However Madrid play differently which would factor in and I'd like clarification on the role of free kicks and corners into those figures. Rakitic is better defensively. Rakitic is the better goalscorer. Rakitic is the bigger match player.

What really matters here though is that you said that "stats say otherwise" to Kroos being "pretty bad" and an "overrated player". The stat you threw out was his chances created which I've now numerous times put into context by noting his taking of corners and free kicks and his lack of assists which you've put solely down to bad finishing. At the end of the day you've simply done exactly what you were arguing against, you overrated Kroos. You've even gone so far as to say Kroos "made Ronaldo the best in the World."
 

les Habs

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
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That's just rude, if you think otherwise please quote where I said anything like what you claimed.

The stats are available in many places, for example:

https://no.whoscored.com/Regions/20...6546/PlayerStatistics/Spain-La-Liga-2018-2019

My mistake. I apologize. However, as you said, the stats don't change much. Either way per 90 is a better way to analyze the information.

You also accused me only having an issue with Kroos because he plays for Madrid. I could just as easily say you're defending Kroos here because he's German. I consider Kroos a very good midfielder. Always have. I was the first person on this forum ever to draft him too. Still he's become overrated in general and on this forum as well.
 

Deficient Mode

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
60,348
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My mistake. I apologize. However, as you said, the stats don't change much. Either way per 90 is a better way to analyze the information.

You also accused me only having an issue with Kroos because he plays for Madrid. I could just as easily say you're defending Kroos here because he's German. I consider Kroos a very good midfielder. Always have. I was the first person on this forum ever to draft him too. Still he's become overrated in general and on this forum as well.

People on this forum trash him 95% of the time now. He is not even close to overrated here.
 

les Habs

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
22,745
4,175
Wisconsin
People on this forum trash him 95% of the time now. He is not even close to overrated here.

I disagree. He's been "trashed" sure, but he's at the same been overrated. In this very thread it was said Kroos "made Ronaldo the best player in the World." Over the course of his career he's generally been overrated on this forum.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
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Yes, he gets trashed by some posters, including me, because he's presented by others as a top 3 midfielder. He is not a top 3 midfielder. A top 10 most likely, which is already very good.
 
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Evilo

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Mar 17, 2002
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You know it's bad when even United legend (Rio Ferdinand) or former players (Owen) say there's no way it was a penalty.

At least a few people keep decency.
 

cujo1117

Registered User
Mar 30, 2018
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You know it's bad when even United legend (Rio Ferdinand) or former players (Owen) say there's no way it was a penalty.

At least a few people keep decency.

take it easy ...the special one said was a penalty.
 

Deficient Mode

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
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I disagree. He's been "trashed" sure, but he's at the same been overrated. In this very thread it was said Kroos "made Ronaldo the best player in the World." Over the course of his career he's generally been overrated on this forum.

I don't know how strongly that comment implied that Ronaldo was a product of Kroos alone but in general I agree that even the best attacker's goal totals will dry up if their midfield isn't winning. Of course Kroos isn't the only very good playmaker on Madrid.

Yes, he gets trashed by some posters, including me, because he's presented by others as a top 3 midfielder. He is not a top 3 midfielder. A top 10 most likely, which is already very good.

If you think he's a top 10 midfielder, it should be far more dissonant to your view of him to see people here call him "a traffic cone", "awful", "pretty bad for a long time," etc. than to see one person who doesn't even post here anymore call him a top 3 midfielder. And yet, the latter is always the reference point for the dozen people here who constantly yell that he's overrated.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
63,555
9,438
France
Meh people will pounce on players when they don't play well.
And one thing you have to remember is that his attitude and comments provoke a lot of backfire when he jogs looking at his teammates defending.
 

Corto

Faceless Man
Sep 28, 2005
16,084
1,001
Braavos
Atletico and ManCity advance today, right?

Unless Ronaldo pulls a miracle performance, yes. Juve will be without both Alex Sandro and Di Sciglio, Douglas Costa is out as well, very interesting to see what Allegri will do at LB.

If Man City goes out I'll take me whole office to lunch tomorrow.
But my money's safe, Schalke is awful. 2-1 up and a man up at home they ended up being hemmed in for 20 minutes and conceding twice.
City really did luck out with the draw there.
 

East Coast Bias

Registered User
Feb 28, 2014
8,362
6,422
NYC
Good luck.

I don't think LFC are going thru, (and the play tomorrow), but at a number like that, have some fun.

Big fan of throwing a few bucks on longshots. Never found throwing big money on even odds to try to make money fun. Give me $10 on a longshot and sometimes you'll get lucky.
 

hatterson

Registered User
Apr 12, 2010
36,491
14,012
North Tonawanda, NY
It's the normal time? Well 15 minutes later from this year and on

US bumped our clocks up an hour on Sunday because we love useless changes, screwing with our bodies natural rhythm, and costing the economy hundreds of millions a year for no benefit at all.

So that means they're kicking off at 4PM eastern today instead of 3PM like the games last week.
 

Prntscrn

Registered User
Sep 29, 2011
5,194
1,641
Sweden
US bumped our clocks up an hour on Sunday because we love useless changes, screwing with our bodies natural rhythm, and costing the economy hundreds of millions a year for no benefit at all.

So that means they're kicking off at 4PM eastern today instead of 3PM like the games last week.

Oh already? We do that too but not until last of march I think. So it will be like this for you guys for 2-3 weeks then.
 
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