GWT: Champions League Round of 16 Part II

[Evilo]

FFS look at the video. The ball changes direction.

 

[The Abusement Park]

FFS look at the video. The ball changes direction.

After it hits his elbow. I still wouldn’t have called it a pen but the ball doesn’t hit his leg first.

 

[hatterson]

Yeah I still think it was a weak call and I’d be pissed if I were on the other side of things. But the ball did not hit Kimpembe’s leg first and it went straight into his arm. And Dalot and Chong did immediately call for a penalty not set up for the corner.

I *think* Chong was calling for the deflection and not the penalty. Dalot definitely was calling for the handball though. Either way "No player saw it" is patently false.

 

[Evilo]

It DOES !!!!
Look at the video I linked. Especially the replay with the ball coming backwards. It's quite clear.

 

[Evilo]

I *think* Chong was calling for the deflection and not the penalty. Dalot definitely was calling for the handball though. Either way "No player saw it" is patently false.

Well no player saw it as a pen if you will.

 

[Evilo]

If you still can't see the thigh deflection, make a google search. You'll see it talked about, even on LCI (information TV). "thigh" is "cuisse" in french.

 

[hatterson]

I don't need a random article. I've seen every angle that's been broadcast on TV and was used in VAR frame by frame, at .25 speed, and at full speed. The only thing I can see with his thigh is that his shorts slightly move, but I can't tell if the ball even touched them or if that movement was caused by natural fabric movement from his jump, from the air of the ball, or if the ball brushed them. No matter what it doesn't materially change position as a result of any deflection between Dalot's foot and Kimpembe's arm.

If the referee deems his arm is in an unnatural position (which I've said from the second it happened I don't believe it was) then it's a penalty. The supposed deflection off the thigh is not material in the ball's flight and, if anything, would have pushed the ball further away from his arm and made arm contact less likely.

 

[Albatros]

Which players are #1 and #2?

3.04 Messi
2.58 Parejo
2.26 Kroos
2.25 Jony
2.19 Griezmann
2.11 Aspas
2.04 Cazorla
1.88 Jordán
1.88 Sarabia
1.84 Susaeta

 

[les Habs]

They were good for Ronaldo, making him the best in the world. The current lot too has by far the most shots in the league, just no quality in finishing.

LOL, so now the "chances created" by Kroos made Ronaldo "the best in the World. Right.

Like I said, chance created doesn't mean good chance and as I've already said his two assists were headers from a straight set piece and another immediately after.

 

[Albatros]

LOL, so now the "chances created" by Kroos made Ronaldo "the best in the World. Right.

Like I said, chance created doesn't mean good chance and as I've already said his two assists were headers from a straight set piece and another immediately after.

And Parejo ahead of him has three assists. It's normal and expected for a playmaking midfielder who does not play up front himself but creates plays as a midfield maestro. It's the job of others to finish those plays.

 

[Evilo]

I don't need a random article. I've seen every angle that's been broadcast on TV and was used in VAR frame by frame, at .25 speed, and at full speed. The only thing I can see with his thigh is that his shorts slightly move, but I can't tell if the ball even touched them or if that movement was caused by natural fabric movement from his jump, from the air of the ball, or if the ball brushed them. No matter what it doesn't materially change position as a result of any deflection between Dalot's foot and Kimpembe's arm.

If the referee deems his arm is in an unnatural position (which I've said from the second it happened I don't believe it was) then it's a penalty. The supposed deflection off the thigh is not material in the ball's flight and, if anything, would have pushed the ball further away from his arm and made arm contact less likely.

Really?
Then why is UEFA saying the ball was going towards the goal (which would help the "he helped his team by using his arm") when the ball wasn't on target?

And yes, the ball hits his thigh before hitting his arm. Which furthers implies there's nothing deliberate (but that's obvious to everyone really).

Random article? Man, those are like BBC or such sources. We're not talking goal.com here.

 

[Evilo]

And please have fun comparing this "handball" and Ramos' right in front of his net, blocking a volley from going straight on target (which I called 50/50).
Common point though : it's always the same team getting screwed.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

3.04 Messi
2.58 Parejo
2.26 Kroos
2.25 Jony
2.19 Griezmann
2.11 Aspas
2.04 Cazorla
1.88 Jordán
1.88 Sarabia
1.84 Susaeta

Good to see the best playmaker in the world at #1

 

[les Habs]

3.04 Messi
2.58 Parejo
2.26 Kroos
2.25 Jony
2.19 Griezmann
2.11 Aspas
2.04 Cazorla
1.88 Jordán
1.88 Sarabia
1.84 Susaeta

And here are their assists:

Messi 11
Parejo 3
Kroos 2
Jony 8
Griezmann 7
Aspas 2
Cazorla 5
Jordan 4
Sarabia 9
Susaeta 2

Now, let's look at where Kroos ranks in chances created in open play:

Tied for 114th per Sqawka. Context hurts.

 

[Albatros]

Again, assists do not matter for a midfield playmaker. It's the job of forwards up front to make something of the plays.

Other stats that matter...

Total passes: 81.0 (1st)
Pass accuracy: 93.4 % (2nd)
Long balls: 8.3 (1st)

Additionally he is also the tenth most fouled against player in the league.

 

[les Habs]

Again, assists do not matter for a midfield playmaker. It's the job of forwards up front to make something of the plays.

Other stats that matter...

Total passes: 81.0 (1st)
Pass accuracy: 93.4 % (2nd)
Long balls: 8.3 (1st)

Additionally he is also the tenth most fouled against player in the league.

LOL, assists don't matter for a "playmaker"?

Other stats that matter...

• Kroos is 6th in the league in backward passes, so there is some context in terms of total passes considering you were touting him as a playmaker and talking about chances created and pass accuracy
• Kroos is 6th in the league in sideways passes, so there is more context in terms of total passes considering you were touting him as a playmaker and talking about chances created and pass accuracy
• 77% of his passes are either sideways or backward, so there is more context in terms of total passes considering you were touting him as a playmaker and talking about chances created and pass accuracy
• His average pass length ranking is 128th, so there is some context in terms of what constitutes a long ball on top of the fact of the large % of his passes being sideways
• His pass accuracy is second to Arthur, a player you compared him to earlier
• He's actually the 19th most fouled player in terms of total fouls
• His fouled per 90 ranking is 58th per Sqawka, but you're using WhoScored? and the difference is your source is taking out players who have played fewer than a minimum amount of matches

 

[Albatros]

Of course Kroos is high in every passing category, he is the only player with over 80 passes per game. Only five others reach 70 and only seven more 60. If you want to talk about Arthur, he has barely 50 passes per game and less than five of them are long. That's a joke, the only Barcelona player comparable would be Rakitic and Kroos dominates even him in about every category.

Besides the only issue you really have with Kroos is that he plays for Real Madrid.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Chayka should make a move for him, with all those fancy advanced stats

 

[les Habs]

Of course Kroos is high in every passing category, he is the only player with over 80 passes per game. Only five others reach 70 and only seven more 60. If you want to talk about Arthur, he has barely 50 passes per game and less than five of them are long. That's a joke, the only Barcelona player comparable would be Rakitic and Kroos dominates even him in about every category.

It would be nice if you actually cited sources and were transparent about the terms, but I'm not surprised you're not. That's OK, I can take care of that as well.

• Oh, so now it's "per match" and not per 90 as it was before. Well per 90 Kroos isn't the only player over 80. On top of that there are 25 players who make more than 70 passes per 90 according to Sqawka.
• Comparing Kroos to Arthur is quite amusing considering their respective roles, respective midfields and the teams they play for. Casemiro and Modric make far fewer passes than Busquets and Rakitic do for context. For further context, per 90 according to Sqawka Arthur makes 66 passes, Kroos 86. To the point about their teammates, Busquets makes 77, Rakitic 85 while Modric and Casemiro make 61 and 60 respectively. That's not to mention the other players who aren't midfielders. So it stands to reason that Arthur would make fewer passes.

Let's see how much Kroos dominates Rakitic:

• 86 passes per 90 vs 85 for Rakitic. So 1 more pass per 90 minutes. Domination indeed.
• Assists, 2 for Kroos and 2 for Rakitic, the difference being Kroos takes far more free kicks and corners such that it's not even close. Then you've got the fact that Rakitic isn't a playmaker in the side like Kroos is for Madrid.
• Rakitic has 3 goals vs 0 for Kroos. So a midfielder taking free kicks vs a player who pretty much never does has fewer goals. 2 of Rakitic's goals were against Sevilla and Madrid respectively, the latter being a World Class chip won a Clasico.
• Pass completion % is 93% for Kroos vs 92% for Rakitic according to WhoScored. Again, domination indeed.
• Rakitic has an interception per match more than Kroos according to WhoScored.
• Kroos is dribbled about once per match more than Rakitic according to WhosScored.

So all those passes per match, all those free kicks and all those chances created and yet he has two assists, but according to you that's down entirely to the finishing of his teammates and has nothing to do with the context around "chances created".

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Good to see the best playmaker in the world at #1

Best playmaker in history

 

[Albatros]

It would be nice if you actually cited sources and were transparent about the terms, but I'm not surprised you're not. That's OK, I can take care of that as well.

• Oh, so now it's "per match" and not per 90 as it was before. Well per 90 Kroos isn't the only player over 80. On top of that there are 25 players who make more than 70 passes per 90 according to Sqawka.
• Comparing Kroos to Arthur is quite amusing considering their respective roles, respective midfields and the teams they play for. Casemiro and Modric make far fewer passes than Busquets and Rakitic do for context. For further context, per 90 according to Sqawka Arthur makes 66 passes, Kroos 86. To the point about their teammates, Busquets makes 77, Rakitic 85 while Modric and Casemiro make 61 and 60 respectively. That's not to mention the other players who aren't midfielders. So it stands to reason that Arthur would make fewer passes.

Let's see how much Kroos dominates Rakitic:

• 86 passes per 90 vs 85 for Rakitic. So 1 more pass per 90 minutes. Domination indeed.
• Assists, 2 for Kroos and 2 for Rakitic, the difference being Kroos takes far more free kicks and corners such that it's not even close. Then you've got the fact that Rakitic isn't a playmaker in the side like Kroos is for Madrid.
• Rakitic has 3 goals vs 0 for Kroos. So a midfielder taking free kicks vs a player who pretty much never does has fewer goals. 2 of Rakitic's goals were against Sevilla and Madrid respectively, the latter being a World Class chip won a Clasico.
• Pass completion % is 93% for Kroos vs 92% for Rakitic according to WhoScored. Again, domination indeed.
• Rakitic has an interception per match more than Kroos according to WhoScored.
• Kroos is dribbled about once per match more than Rakitic according to WhosScored.

So all those passes per match, all those free kicks and all those chances created and yet he has two assists, but according to you that's down entirely to the finishing of his teammates and has nothing to do with the context around "chances created".

You should not try to constantly and intentionally lie about what others have previously said, it is very rude and does not help any conversation in any way.

 

[les Habs]

You should not try to constantly and intentionally lie about what others have previously said, it is very rude and does not help any conversation in any way.

LOL. I lied about nothing, but whatever makes you feel better about your posts.

 

[Albatros]

LOL. I lied about nothing, but whatever makes you feel better about your posts.

"Oh, so now it's "per match" and not per 90 as it was before." etc.

If you want to move the goalposts on the fly then explain why you think that makes sense (unless you can't), but trying to change the framing dishonestly like that is just appalling.

The stats per 90 as you prefer, even so it does little to change the big picture:

Kroos better
Pass success percentage: Kroos 93.4-92.0 Rakitic
Accurate long balls: Kroos 8.7-5.4 Rakitic
Inaccurate short passes: Kroos 4.2-5.4 Rakitic
Attempted tackles: Kroos 3.6-1.8 Rakitic
Key passes: Kroos 2.4-0.5 Rakitic
Fouled: Kroos 2.3-1.7 Rakitic
Tackles won: Kroos 2.0-1.0 Rakitic
Short key passes: Kroos 1.4-0.4 Rakitic
Long key passes: Kroos 1.0-0.1 Rakitic
Passes blocked: Kroos 0.8-0.7 Rakitic
Unsuccessful touches: Kroos 0.6-0.8 Rakitic
Successful dribbles: Kroos 0.6-0.5 Rakitic
Dispossessed: Kroos 0.5-0.7 Rakitic
Unsuccessful dribbles: Kroos 0.2-0.3 Rakitic
Cards: Kroos 0.1-0.2 Rakitic

Tie
Total passes: Kroos 84.8-84.8 Rakitic
Inaccurate long balls: Kroos 1.4-1.4 Rakitic
Fouls: Kroos 0.9-0.9 Rakitic
Aerial duels lost: Kroos 0.6-0.6 Rakitic
Assists: Kroos 0.1-0.1 Rakitic
Caught offside: Kroos 0.1-0.1 Rakitic

Rakitic better
Accurate short passes: Rakitic 72.6-70.4 Kroos
Interceptions: Rakitic 1.8-0.6 Kroos
Aerial duels won: Rakitic 1.1-0.8 Kroos
Dribbled past: Rakitic 0.8-1.7 Kroos
Clearances: Rakitic 0.8-0.4 Kroos
Shots blocked: Rakitic 0.3-0.1 Kroos
Crosses blocked: Rakitic 0.2-0.1 Kroos
Goals: Rakitic 0.1-0.0 Kroos

 

[les Habs]

"Oh, so now it's "per match" and not per 90 as it was before." etc.

If you want to move the goalposts on the fly then explain why you think that makes sense (unless you can't), but trying to change the framing dishonestly like that is just appalling.

The stats per 90 as you prefer, even so it does little to change the big picture:

Kroos better
Pass success percentage: Kroos 93.4-92.0 Rakitic
Accurate long balls: Kroos 8.7-5.4 Rakitic
Inaccurate short passes: Kroos 4.2-5.4 Rakitic
Attempted tackles: Kroos 3.6-1.8 Rakitic
Key passes: Kroos 2.4-0.5 Rakitic
Fouled: Kroos 2.3-1.7 Rakitic
Tackles won: Kroos 2.0-1.0 Rakitic
Short key passes: Kroos 1.4-0.4 Rakitic
Long key passes: Kroos 1.0-0.1 Rakitic
Passes blocked: Kroos 0.8-0.7 Rakitic
Unsuccessful touches: Kroos 0.6-0.8 Rakitic
Successful dribbles: Kroos 0.6-0.5 Rakitic
Dispossessed: Kroos 0.5-0.7 Rakitic
Unsuccessful dribbles: Kroos 0.2-0.3 Rakitic
Cards: Kroos 0.1-0.2 Rakitic

Tie
Total passes: Kroos 84.8-84.8 Rakitic
Inaccurate long balls: Kroos 1.4-1.4 Rakitic
Fouls: Kroos 0.9-0.9 Rakitic
Aerial duels lost: Kroos 0.6-0.6 Rakitic
Assists: Kroos 0.1-0.1 Rakitic
Caught offside: Kroos 0.1-0.1 Rakitic

Rakitic better
Accurate short passes: Rakitic 72.6-70.4 Kroos
Interceptions: Rakitic 1.8-0.6 Kroos
Aerial duels won: Rakitic 1.1-0.8 Kroos
Dribbled past: Rakitic 0.8-1.7 Kroos
Clearances: Rakitic 0.8-0.4 Kroos
Shots blocked: Rakitic 0.3-0.1 Kroos
Crosses blocked: Rakitic 0.2-0.1 Kroos
Goals: Rakitic 0.1-0.0 Kroos

You're the one who moved the goalposts, not me. I called you out on it.

Source for all of that?

 

[Albatros]

That's just rude, if you think otherwise please quote where I said anything like what you claimed.

The stats are available in many places, for example:

https://no.whoscored.com/Regions/20...6546/PlayerStatistics/Spain-La-Liga-2018-2019