CFL 2024

[bone]

What does this have to do with the QB?

I'd suggest that in the history of Football you win zero games where you give up 55pts and 7TD's.

Nobody wins in Winnipeg period and this was men against boys and Bombers flexing muscles. Game was decided on Bombers bringing their A game this time and guys like Lawler having a crazy good night. D couldn't stop the pass, couldn't stop the run. We gave up 460passing yds. Again you just don't win doing that.

Thompson missed receivers, true, but a lot of that had to do with having to go for desperation longbombs and receivers also flat out dropping balls.

We could have Warren Moon in tonight and we lose this game. Bombers are real good when they play their A game.

The only thing the offense could have changed is by stopping the bleeding in the early part of the game. After two long drives, Edmonton gets one first down, then turns it over, then right back at it for a touchdown, then two and out, then touchdown then the fumble, etc. Winnipeg had more Touchdowns than Edmonton had First Downs until well beyond the 3 minute warning of the first half.

At some point in that first half the defense needed a long drive by the offense to gather their composure on the sidelines and try to settle down and catch their breath, but every time they had to march right back onto the field within a couple minutes.

Then once your down 31-0, it's pretty hard for anyone to gather themselves. By all means the defense wears this debacle, but if the offense had showed up at all, maybe things settle down a bit quicker.

 

[K1984]

Everyone has their opinions on the QB situation, and they're certainly valid, but I'm really surprised at how Ford is now being largely written off based this season, in which he's looked mostly good in limited appearances. Last week's "career killing" game was his only bad showing of the season. He's barely played due to both coaching decisions and injuries, and that's reason for concern for sure, but if we're concluding he's not likely a viable starter going forward, it's being based off a remarkably small size IMO. The guy remains to only Elks QB to post anything resembling an acceptable W-L record over his three years with the organization.

Another consideration when evaluating QB's is who's just played the last two weeks. I think the CFL is roughly this league at the moment in terms of quality:

Winnipeg (despite the bad an confusing start)



Montreal
Ottawa
BC
Toronto

Edmonton
Saskatchewan
Stampeders
Tiger Cats

I don't think the EE show even close to this badly against any of the other teams in the league. The last two games were definitely slaps in the face and shows how far off the team is from actually reaching championship status, but I don't think that means they aren't, or can't be competitive with the rest of the league.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The only thing the offense could have changed is by stopping the bleeding in the early part of the game. After two long drives, Edmonton gets one first down, then turns it over, then right back at it for a touchdown, then two and out, then touchdown then the fumble, etc. Winnipeg had more Touchdowns than Edmonton had First Downs until well beyond the 3 minute warning of the first half.

At some point in that first half the defense needed a long drive by the offense to gather their composure on the sidelines and try to settle down and catch their breath, but every time they had to march right back onto the field within a couple minutes.

Then once your down 31-0, it's pretty hard for anyone to gather themselves. By all means the defense wears this debacle, but if the offense had showed up at all, maybe things settle down a bit quicker.

I don't agree with this. A D shouldn't be fatigued or tired in the first Quarter, 2nd Quarter. The D bleeding was immediate and instant in this game.

If talking about a D tiring in 2nd half I tend to agree but the Elks had 4 long scoring drives in a row and all that resulted in is the D promptly giving up another score everytime. The D didn't look rested coming into this game and there might have been something else going on during the couple days in Winnipeg. A more experienced team would have this trouble in Montreal. hint hint. But this team is kind of young and doesn't know the in outs of things.

jk aside the team is really open on Facebook and X. My guess from what I saw is some carousing and "team bonding" went on.

All that said the Elks realistically lost their playoff hopes in the home game. They had to win that one. Even though the team was talking it up big there was no way they were winning in Winnipeg where hardly anybody ever does. The scoreline might have altered somewhat if the offense got rolling immediately but the result wouldn't have changed. If you can't beat the Bombers in Edmonton theres no way its happening in Winnipeg. Its bad luck too for the Elks that Lawler and Oliviera just started feeling good and healthy during this two game set. They are 100% and that hasn't always been the case. Both are prone to injury. You get these two healthy and its a long day for any D. Both are basically unstoppable when healthy. Lawler particularly its like seeing a guy thats just too good for this league.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Another consideration when evaluating QB's is who's just played the last two weeks. I think the CFL is roughly this league at the moment in terms of quality:

Winnipeg (despite the bad an confusing start)



Montreal
Ottawa
BC
Toronto

Edmonton
Saskatchewan
Stampeders
Tiger Cats

I don't think the EE show even close to this badly against any of the other teams in the league. The last two games were definitely slaps in the face and shows how far off the team is from actually reaching championship status, but I don't think that means they aren't, or can't be competitive with the rest of the league.

Yep. So much of the MBT is bad statline that gets trumped everytime is his record. Well, in the first 7 games of the season MBT played well or very well in multiple of those games and the team lost 4 in a row of those by a measley FG. In those games Bede had missed multiple FG's. Occams razor would point at Bede for being the culprit in those games. MBT probably should have had 2-3 W's in those games, maybe more. Factor in that the team was brand new, lots of changes, and thats a factor. Took some time to gel.

For the first offseason in awhile I want several players on offense and defense retained. The team is competitive now. Basically against anybody but Winnipeg.

This is the first Edmonton team since Reilly to beat the Stamps in the BOA back2back. I'll take that overall along with always being better than Flames on ice. Its progress this season and I wouldn't rip it apart.

 

[Stoneman89]

The only thing the offense could have changed is by stopping the bleeding in the early part of the game. After two long drives, Edmonton gets one first down, then turns it over, then right back at it for a touchdown, then two and out, then touchdown then the fumble, etc. Winnipeg had more Touchdowns than Edmonton had First Downs until well beyond the 3 minute warning of the first half.

At some point in that first half the defense needed a long drive by the offense to gather their composure on the sidelines and try to settle down and catch their breath, but every time they had to march right back onto the field within a couple minutes.

Then once your down 31-0, it's pretty hard for anyone to gather themselves. By all means the defense wears this debacle, but if the offense had showed up at all, maybe things settle down a bit quicker.

When a qb has one turnover and the other team scores 55, in my mind the biggest issue is the defence. Can't even say they were out there too long, considering the Bombers gashed them for massive gains and scored quickly and often.

 

[bone]

When a qb has one turnover and the other team scores 55, in my mind the biggest issue is the defence. Can't even say they were out there too long, considering the Bombers gashed them for massive gains and scored quickly and often.

For sure. Was only suggesting that offense needed to do something more than 3 first downs and 2 turnovers in the first 28 minutes and maybe that could have helped things a bit and shift some momentum back. But the loss is definitely on the Defense.

 

[Stoneman89]

For sure. Was only suggesting that offense needed to do something more than 3 first downs and 2 turnovers in the first 28 minutes and maybe that could have helped things a bit and shift some momentum back. But the loss is definitely on the Defense.

Not excusing the offence at all, but the biggest issue for me was the defence. I just find it a bit surprising and confusing when we allow 55 points (all on defence) that some people seem to be laser focused on the quarterbacks as the issue.

 

[bellagiobob]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1841223131677278667

 

[Stoneman89]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1841223131677278667

Please just play Leake on kick returns and the odd running play (if at all). We have 2 good backs as it is, and our return game sucks without him. One more reason to get rid of JJ and the rest of them.

 

[McAsuno]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1841252976662643166

sigh lol

 

[bone]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1841252976662643166

sigh lol

I disagreed with Gregor last week when he barked up this tree, but for this game I agree. MBT did even less than Ford when it mattered against that Winnipeg defense and in the two previous games against Saskatchewan MBT lost and Ford smoked them. Ford beat them last year as well. Both wins were in Saskatchewan even and the team scored 78 points in those two games.

To me Ford starting should be automatic for this game.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I disagreed with Gregor last week when he barked up this tree, but for this game I agree. MBT did even less than Ford when it mattered against that Winnipeg defense and in the two previous games against Saskatchewan MBT lost and Ford smoked them. Ford beat them last year as well. Both wins were in Saskatchewan even and the team scored 78 points in those two games.

To me Ford starting should be automatic for this game.

While I agree with your conclusion that Ford should start, and just for a fan thing because the paying fans are voting for this loudly and its a home game, Bu the Winnipeg game wasn't the big game. The first one was. Soon as we lost that we lost hope and the team despite what they were saying lost hope. Teams now laying down against Riders who were the only team we could catch. I doubt we're catching BC. I mean its over in all but mathematics.

Not sure how anybody can say MBT did less against the Bombers than Ford. Nothing bears that out.

But sadly this game which was going to be huge, it doesn't seem to matter now. We need every result going the right way for us to even have a hope.

 

[bone]

While I agree with your conclusion that Ford should start, and just for a fan thing because the paying fans are voting for this loudly and its a home game, Bu the Winnipeg game wasn't the big game. The first one was. Soon as we lost that we lost hope and the team despite what they were saying lost hope. Teams now laying down against Riders who were the only team we could catch. I doubt we're catching BC. I mean its over in all but mathematics.

Not sure how anybody can say MBT did less against the Bombers than Ford. Nothing bears that out.

But sadly this game which was going to be huge, it doesn't seem to matter now. We need every result going the right way for us to even have a hope.

My assertion about this is that MBT had only 3 first downs in the first 28 minutes and produced literally nothing until it was a 5 score deficit and the team never got closer than 3 scores after that. So a lot of those stats were earned against a much softer defense than what Ford faced or even than MBT himself faced in the first half. As such, I don't put nearly as much weight on his 2nd half stats as I do his first half stats or mop up stats in the first WPG game.

Perhaps suggesting he did less isn't fair, but there's no way I'd agree that he did more that Ford.

 

[Drivesaitl]

My assertion about this is that MBT had only 3 first downs in the first 28 minutes and produced literally nothing until it was a 5 score deficit and the team never got closer than 3 scores after that. So a lot of those stats were earned against a much softer defense than what Ford faced or even than MBT himself faced in the first half. As such, I don't put nearly as much weight on his 2nd half stats as I do his first half stats or mop up stats in the first WPG game.

Perhaps suggesting he did less isn't fair, but there's no way I'd agree that he did more that Ford.

Suggesting only an arbitrary yard stick, self selected, is a proving point is unfair, and you know that. The game is 60mins and evaluation of said games probably ought to encompass 60mins.

Ford did f*** all for the first 30mins of the home game against Winnipeg. Only reason we weren't multiple scores down was the D being heroic in that game. I usually agree with your takes but this one wasn't one of the better ones, we all have em, cheers.

ps Ford faced a soft Bombers performance. Bombers are a much much better team at home and all the stat lines show this, and have for years. Its a whole different beast playing the bombers in their stadium.

 

[bone]

Suggesting only an arbitrary yard stick, self selected, is a proving point is unfair, and you know that. The game is 60mins and evaluation of said games probably ought to encompass 60mins.

Ford did f*** all for the first 30mins of the home game against Winnipeg. Only reason we weren't multiple scores down was the D being heroic in that game. I usually agree with your takes but this one wasn't one of the better ones, we all have em, cheers.

ps Ford faced a soft Bombers performance. Bombers are a much much better team at home and all the stat lines show this, and have for years. Its a whole different beast playing the bombers in their stadium.

The only reason I picked that specific yard stick is that at that point the Bombers had a 5 score advantage while the Elks only had 3 first downs to that and it was a very prolonged stretch.

You'll never convince me the defense that played the second half of that 2nd game was playing as tight as they were in the prior 6 quarters. It's just the nature of the business. Once you have a gigantic lead like that, you're playing to prevent multiple major breakdowns and nothing more.

Perhaps you could argue the Winnipeg D in Edmonton wasn't as ferocious as the D in the first half of the game in Winnipeg. That's a possibility, but there's no way the defense in the 2nd half in Winnipeg was a tough as any of the prior 6 quarters.

Scoring wise for either quarterback over the two games where the Bluebomber lead was less than 17 points was 10 for Ford and 0 for MBT. 27 of the total 30 points by MBT were when the Bombers had a lead of 28 or more points and the other 3 points when the lead was 17.

So both were terrible when the game was in doubt. Ford helped generate some points but his TD was one of the worst passes I've ever seen go complete, and both generated a turnover that resulted in an immediate score against (Ford's was a worse throw). Both had one of their turnovers be the result of Rankin being generally terrible at catching balls (though I don't care about that as he's a beast carrying the ball).

I'm fine saying Ford was terrible in his game. I said as much myself last week and was calling for the hook when MBT came into that game.

But anyone looking at MBTs numbers last week as anything more than lipstick on a pig, are giving him too much credit.

As an aside as ultimately Wins and Losses matter most. Ford's two wins were vs teams currently in a playoff spot and they were convincing wins (one of which aided by great play in relief by MBT, but the winning point was scored by Ford). MBTs two wins were vs. the only other teams not currently in a playoff spot.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The only reason I picked that specific yard stick is that at that point the Bombers had a 5 score advantage while the Elks only had 3 first downs to that and it was a very prolonged stretch.

You'll never convince me the defense that played the second half of that 2nd game was playing as tight as they were in the prior 6 quarters. It's just the nature of the business. Once you have a gigantic lead like that, you're playing to prevent multiple major breakdowns and nothing more.

Perhaps you could argue the Winnipeg D in Edmonton wasn't as ferocious as the D in the first half of the game in Winnipeg. That's a possibility, but there's no way the defense in the 2nd half in Winnipeg was a tough as any of the prior 6 quarters.

Scoring wise for either quarterback over the two games where the Bluebomber lead was less than 17 points was 10 for Ford and 0 for MBT. 27 of the total 30 points by MBT were when the Bombers had a lead of 28 or more points and the other 3 points when the lead was 17.

So both were terrible when the game was in doubt. Ford helped generate some points but his TD was one of the worst passes I've ever seen go complete, and both generated a turnover that resulted in an immediate score against (Ford's was a worse throw). Both had one of their turnovers be the result of Rankin being generally terrible at catching balls (though I don't care about that as he's a beast carrying the ball).

I'm fine saying Ford was terrible in his game. I said as much myself last week and was calling for the hook when MBT came into that game.

But anyone looking at MBTs numbers last week as anything more than lipstick on a pig, are giving him too much credit.

As an aside as ultimately Wins and Losses matter most. Ford's two wins were vs teams currently in a playoff spot and they were convincing wins (one of which aided by great play in relief by MBT, but the winning point was scored by Ford). MBTs two wins were vs. the only other teams not currently in a playoff spot.

Neither played particularly well. I fully understand your rationale. I don't buy it though in this instance. The Elks D was laying down and the Bombers O was on from the start of the game. Bombers were playing one of their sending a message games, at home, and them being giants at home is indisputable. Its not even possible to argue this not being the case. Bombers are dominant at home and have been for several seasons.

The Elks stopped nothing all day. Like I'd mentioned earlier nearly every Bombers pass was completed. Elks all game broke up only one or two passes. that is abysmal. The other 3 were Colloras throwing the ball away. The runstop wasn't there either.

Lets break it down into detail. The Bombers scored TD on opening drive. They were 10 up mins into the game and then 17pts up at 13mins. To that point the Elks offense had the ball only twice and with one of those Elks possessions ending on a Prukop failed gamble. So the game was over right there. I encourage you to consider that.


Conversely the Elks O was not on aside from Rankin, and that includes the receivers. Several flat out dropped balls in first half and that just kills momentum. Some bad reads by MBT as well or not getting it away fast enough but this was not an A game from our receivers and I didn't like the new one we had in there either, I forget his name. Lewis was finally embarassed into action by Lawler making spectacular grabs. It was an uninspiring effort from most of the offense. We were losing the line of scrimmage as well. Almost always.

Fords wins in some cases occurred against teams that were playing poorly at the time. Theres flux in any team at different times. Especially in CFL where teams run hot and cold quite a lot.

 

[bone]

Neither played particularly well. I fully understand your rationale. I don't buy it though in this instance. The Elks D was laying down and the Bombers O was on from the start of the game. Bombers were playing one of their sending a message games, at home, and them being giants at home is indisputable. Its not even possible to argue this not being the case. Bombers are dominant at home and have been for several seasons.

The Elks stopped nothing all day. Like I'd mentioned earlier nearly every Bombers pass was completed. Elks all game broke up only one or two passes. that is abysmal. The other 3 were Colloras throwing the ball away. The runstop wasn't there either.

Lets break it down into detail. The Bombers scored TD on opening drive. They were 10 up mins into the game and then 17pts up at 13mins. To that point the Elks offense had the ball only twice and with one of those Elks possessions ending on a Prukop failed gamble. So the game was over right there. I encourage you to consider that.


Conversely the Elks O was not on aside from Rankin, and that includes the receivers. Several flat out dropped balls in first half and that just kills momentum. Some bad reads by MBT as well or not getting it away fast enough but this was not an A game from our receivers and I didn't like the new one we had in there either, I forget his name. Lewis was finally embarassed into action by Lawler making spectacular grabs. It was an uninspiring effort from most of the offense. We were losing the line of scrimmage as well. Almost always.

Fords wins in some cases occurred against teams that were playing poorly at the time. Theres flux in any team at different times. Especially in CFL where teams run hot and cold quite a lot.

That's kind of my point and going from the point you mention here, the next five series go

Elks - 2 and out off a 4 yard run and an incomplete pass
Bombers - March down the field and score again.
Elks - 2 and out with a negative 1 yard pass and incomplete pass.
Bombers - 2 and out on the first stop of the game by the defense.
Elks - a run, a short pass giveing a First Down. Followed by a run, then the failed lateral pass resulting in a quick 7 points against and a 31-0 deficit.

A couple first downs and some points on one of those 3 Elks drives instead of the offense giving up a quick 7 points maybe galvanizes the team and they make a game of it. As it were the defense made some other stops to finish out the half.

Scoring a touchdown instead of giving up a touchdown in that stretch, the score could potentially be 27-13 with the Elks feeling like they got bailed out of a bad start against a great team at home with the Bombers feeling like they let a team off the mat. Throw in that first drive of the third and all of the sudden it's a one score game.

But instead it's 34-6, they can only feel like they got their asses kicked and Winnipeg can look at it as if they just need to play tidy, limit big plays and give up no turnovers and the game is in the bag.

Would they have completed a comeback in this alternate universe. I really doubt it, as Winnipeg is firing on all cylinders now, but it would be easier to feel better about the team and MBT if they had made a game of it at any real point.

 

[Stoneman89]

Any ideas from anyone as to how to fix the defence, and if there are a few players actually worth keeping? And what about the defensive coordinator and his assistants?

That's kind of my point and going from the point you mention here, the next five series go

Elks - 2 and out off a 4 yard run and an incomplete pass
Bombers - March down the field and score again.
Elks - 2 and out with a negative 1 yard pass and incomplete pass.
Bombers - 2 and out on the first stop of the game by the defense.
Elks - a run, a short pass giveing a First Down. Followed by a run, then the failed lateral pass resulting in a quick 7 points against and a 31-0 deficit.

A couple first downs and some points on one of those 3 Elks drives instead of the offense giving up a quick 7 points maybe galvanizes the team and they make a game of it. As it were the defense made some other stops to finish out the half.

Scoring a touchdown instead of giving up a touchdown in that stretch, the score could potentially be 27-13 with the Elks feeling like they got bailed out of a bad start against a great team at home with the Bombers feeling like they let a team off the mat. Throw in that first drive of the third and all of the sudden it's a one score game.

But instead it's 34-6, they can only feel like they got their asses kicked and Winnipeg can look at it as if they just need to play tidy, limit big plays and give up no turnovers and the game is in the bag.

Would they have completed a comeback in this alternate universe. I really doubt it, as Winnipeg is firing on all cylinders now, but it would be easier to feel better about the team and MBT if they had made a game of it at any real point.

I'm questioning the game plan as well, big time. Many times MBT threw a pass or they ran a running play, it was infested with Bombers. It's like they were sitting in the huddle with us. No imagination, and absolutely no adjusting happened.

 

[bone]

Any ideas from anyone as to how to fix the defence, and if there are a few players actually worth keeping? And what about the defensive coordinator and his assistants?

At this point, I'd chalk it up to a really bad game vs. a really good opponent looking to make a statement at home and not over react about any of the players or coaches on the defense and revisit it in the offseason with a full year's worth of information.

The defense has been pretty solid if not great in 7 of the last 8 games despite being a pretty young group overall. See how they respond to an ass kicking. Last time they had their ass kicked like that (vs. Hamilton Week 8) they responded very well to it and played great for almost two months.