Celebrini for Calder

[Anomie2029]

I mean, he has the next best forward on his LW, and the team's leading goalscorer was on his RW but got injured. What else do you want Warsofsky to do? There are only so many highly mediocre forwards available.

Here's a couple of things Warsofsky can do:
- Accept the fact that all of the D are bad at defending, so prioritize those who can have some resemblance of puck moving ability instead of making up false narratives about how they're actually good (Rutta and Ferraro).
- Have a system that isn't chip out the zone and hope to get it out. If you're only reaching 20 shots per game, you're system is f***ing awful.
- Give potential a genuine chance to play instead of giving up on them because they didn't produce with Barclay f***ing Goodrow on their line. Kovalenko started his Sharks tenure strong, but when he went through a quiet patch he got instantly scratched or stuck with the Goodrow and Dellandrea types.
- Vets don't get benefit of the doubt. They've had their chances with this team multiple seasons and are still awful. The only way they're reliable is that they're consistently rubbish.

Why isn't Mack looking as good as he was? Maybe because teams know they only need to defend his line because the rest are being filled with plugs that shouldn't be seeing icetime in the AHL let alone the NHL.

 

[coooldude]

Here's a couple of things Warsofsky can do:
- Accept the fact that all of the D are bad at defending, so prioritize those who can have some resemblance of puck moving ability instead of making up false narratives about how they're actually good (Rutta and Ferraro).

Prioritize who, how? Are you talking about Mukh? We don't have defensemen with some semblance of puck moving ability to prioritize. FWIW, Ferraro has looked decent for a majority of the past 15 games, and the stats have mostly shown him to be passable, not atrocious.

- Have a system that isn't chip out the zone and hope to get it out. If you're only reaching 20 shots per game, you're system is f***ing awful.

The breakout has been getting better, but it's mostly a function of the skill of the players. Our defensemen can't make confident plays, walman and sorta Lily are the only D with any chance of carrying through NZ, and even among the forwards we only have 3 who can carry through NZ (Ek, Celly, good but not bad Granlund). I don't think this is a system problem, it's a skill problem. We aren't getting lots of shots because the team is in our own zone too much without the puck, not because we can't break it out. The advanced stats on giveaways supported this at least earlier in the year when I looked it up.

- Give potential a genuine chance to play instead of giving up on them because they didn't produce with Barclay f***ing Goodrow on their line. Kovalenko started his Sharks tenure strong, but when he went through a quiet patch he got instantly scratched or stuck with the Goodrow and Dellandrea types.

I agree that Kovalenko should play more, but to be fair he did get injured. You have to direct some of your ire at Grier because guaranteed he's involved in decisions about Goody playing. Dellandrea is a guy but he's a reliable plug who can play PK and so is Goody, and that's almost certainly why they are getting games.

- Vets don't get benefit of the doubt. They've had their chances with this team multiple seasons and are still awful. The only way they're reliable is that they're consistently rubbish.

Why isn't Mack looking as good as he was? Maybe because teams know they only need to defend his line because the rest are being filled with plugs that shouldn't be seeing icetime in the AHL let alone the NHL.

Mack looked awesome tonight for the half of the game I watched, I don't think it's Warsofsky's fault he has had ups and downs this season. He's 18.

 

[Lebanezer]

Here's a couple of things Warsofsky can do:
- Accept the fact that all of the D are bad at defending, so prioritize those who can have some resemblance of puck moving ability instead of making up false narratives about how they're actually good (Rutta and Ferraro).
- Have a system that isn't chip out the zone and hope to get it out. If you're only reaching 20 shots per game, you're system is f***ing awful.
- Give potential a genuine chance to play instead of giving up on them because they didn't produce with Barclay f***ing Goodrow on their line. Kovalenko started his Sharks tenure strong, but when he went through a quiet patch he got instantly scratched or stuck with the Goodrow and Dellandrea types.
- Vets don't get benefit of the doubt. They've had their chances with this team multiple seasons and are still awful. The only way they're reliable is that they're consistently rubbish.

Why isn't Mack looking as good as he was? Maybe because teams know they only need to defend his line because the rest are being filled with plugs that shouldn't be seeing icetime in the AHL let alone the NHL.

To be fair, this is what he’s going to have to deal with for the majority of his career. He’s always going to be the focal point of the opposition. He’s still doing great considering the matchups he’s facing.

 

[Shark Finn]

I don't really care if he wins the Calder or not, just happy to have a 18-year old whom other teams have to adjust to. Michkov is 19, Hutson soon 20. Let's see how good Celebrini is in a year or two.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Here's a couple of things Warsofsky can do:
- Accept the fact that all of the D are bad at defending, so prioritize those who can have some resemblance of puck moving ability instead of making up false narratives about how they're actually good (Rutta and Ferraro).
- Have a system that isn't chip out the zone and hope to get it out. If you're only reaching 20 shots per game, you're system is f***ing awful.
- Give potential a genuine chance to play instead of giving up on them because they didn't produce with Barclay f***ing Goodrow on their line. Kovalenko started his Sharks tenure strong, but when he went through a quiet patch he got instantly scratched or stuck with the Goodrow and Dellandrea types.
- Vets don't get benefit of the doubt. They've had their chances with this team multiple seasons and are still awful. The only way they're reliable is that they're consistently rubbish.

Why isn't Mack looking as good as he was? Maybe because teams know they only need to defend his line because the rest are being filled with plugs that shouldn't be seeing icetime in the AHL let alone the NHL.

It could just be, and bear with me here, the Sharks are a bad team, they are down one of their few bonafide top-6 forwards, the forward group they iced has four rookies, and they iced the human equivalent of an exponential equation in the nets tonight.

• Seems to me that Wallman and Liljegrin are getting plenty of ice time. I’m curious who you think these other defenders with puck moving ability Warsofsky has laying around are.
• I think it’s hard to argue potential isn’t getting a fair shake when Warso just iced a lineup where a third of the forwards were rookies.
• Considering there’s been no talk of “development days” since like the third week of the season and Kovalenko was back in the lineup the first opportunity since he was activated from IR, again, I think it’s hard to convincingly argue the kids aren’t getting ice time. They gotta do something with it. Graf, who I’m really pulling for, isn’t doing much that shows up on a scoreboard, despite getting plenty of opportunities. Kovalenko is the only rookie that I could hear something about getting more ice-time; but I don’t think he’s necessarily forcing the issue.
• I’m not sure vets are getting the benefit of the doubt here. Which of the young guys isn’t getting ice time that has done much to show they should be getting it? How many rookies do you realistically expect to ice at one time? Do you anticipate a lineup with Cardwell, Mukh, and IDK Bystedt, along with the four other rookies already getting regular ice time is gonna do better? If so, to what end?
• As long as we are just throwing hypothetical “maybes” out there, maybe Mack isn’t actually dropping off. Maybe he had a short run of some extra puck luck earlier and this is what the balance of that looks like. Or, maybe the grind of his first pro season and the cadence of twice as many games per week against the most physical competition in the world is wearing on him just a little bit.

In my opinion, this team is exactly who we thought they were. They’re loosing games because they are a bad team, lacking the overall skill (especially on defense) and size (especially on offense), to consistently beat teams over a complete 60 minute game. But the compete is there, and there are flashes, and that’s what I expected and wanted to see this season.

 

[Star Platinum]

In my opinion, this team is exactly who we thought they were. They’re losing games because they are a bad team, lacking the overall skill (especially on defense) and size (especially on offense), to consistently beat teams over a complete 60 minute game. But the compete is there, and there are flashes, and that’s what I expected and wanted to see this season.

I dispute that the compete is there. Maybe it's there more than last year - I can't speak to last year cause I wasn't watching. But I see plenty of times when we're not competing that hard for loose pucks or when the forwards don't skate back to support the defense for a zone exit or when guys are standing around in the defensive zone oblivious to the guys skating right by them.

Yes this team is bad and yes this team isn't talented enough, but how talented do you have to be to protect a 4 goal lead for half a game? Bottom line, blowing a 5-1 lead is bad and there's no putting lipstick on that pig.

 

[Anomie2029]

This team has more talented than last season…

But they have 2 points (via OT losses) more.

 

[Hodge]

This team has more talented than last season…

But they have 2 points (via OT losses) more.

We're also -52 compared to -91 at the same point last season. Insane to suggest there hasn't been a ton of improvement.

 

[one2gamble]

there has clearly been improvement, I would even argue that its been more than incremental but its a good wake up call on how much is left to be done.

 

[Oilers]

I don't really care if he wins the Calder or not, just happy to have a 18-year old whom other teams have to adjust to. Michkov is 19, Hutson soon 20. Let's see how good Celebrini is in a year or two.

Totally agree here. Calder is nice but tons of factors go into it and is hardly the be all end all of who will be better in the long run. If Hutson wins, great. I'm still taking Celebrini for the future.

Barrett Jackman won over Zetterberg and Rick Nash
Berard won over Iginla

 

[ChompChomp]

Totally agree here. Calder is nice but tons of factors go into it and is hardly the be all end all of who will be better in the long run. If Hutson wins, great. I'm still taking Celebrini for the future.

Barrett Jackman won over Zetterberg and Rick Nash
Berard won over Iginla

and Skinner over Couture

 

[karltonian]

I mean, he has the next best forward on his LW, and the team's leading goalscorer was on his RW but got injured. What else do you want Warsofsky to do? There are only so many highly mediocre forwards available.

Tbh id like to see him try moving zetterlund to celebrinis wing. Yes he has been effective lately with granny smith but even while scoring that line does not dominate in a way that generates territorial advantage for other lines. When celebrinis line gets rolling it creates havoc for opposing defenses which puts other lines in better position to succeed due to better zone starts and tiring out the d.

To be fair, this is what he’s going to have to deal with for the majority of his career. He’s always going to be the focal point of the opposition. He’s still doing great considering the matchups he’s facing.

Eh if he gets a big body power forward type winger it will make a huge difference.

 

[karltonian]

The breakout has been getting better, but it's mostly a function of the skill of the players. Our defensemen can't make confident plays, walman and sorta Lily are the only D with any chance of carrying through NZ, and even among the forwards we only have 3 who can carry through NZ (Ek, Celly, good but not bad Granlund). I don't think this is a system problem, it's a skill problem. We aren't getting lots of shots because the team is in our own zone too much without the puck, not because we can't break it out. The advanced stats on giveaways supported this at least earlier in the year when I looked it up.

Not being able to break out a puck leads to more time in your own zone...

 

[coooldude]

Not being able to break out a puck leads to more time in your own zone...

Yes, what I meant to say is, "We aren't getting lots of shots because the team is in our own zone too much without the puck, not because the system can't break it out."

The problem is the players can't execute on clean breakouts, which is what I said "Our defensemen can't make confident plays, walman and sorta Lily are the only D with any chance of carrying through NZ, and even among the forwards we only have 3 who can carry through NZ (Ek, Celly, good but not bad Granlund). I don't think this is a system problem, it's a skill problem."

And on top of all this, as Warsofsky said, we have small and not strong enough forwards, and D who aren't dangerous except for Walman in the OZ, so we also can't really possess the puck significantly well in the OZ, leading to more time in the NZ/DZ. As Larionov used to say, "best defense offense ours," and we also don't have a good puck possession game to avoid DZ time.

 

[Star Platinum]

And on top of all this, as Warsofsky said, we have small and not strong enough forwards, and D who aren't dangerous except for Walman in the OZ, so we also can't really possess the puck significantly well in the OZ, leading to more time in the NZ/DZ. As Larionov used to say, "best defense offense ours," and we also don't have a good puck possession game to avoid DZ time.

What frustrates me though is that I agree with Larionov - the best defense is offense ours, but we don't play like we understand that concept.

Larionov was a smurf. Like Lane Hutson sized smurf, in an era that punished small players far more than it does now. His solution to the problem above was not to give up the puck when he had it unless it was to pass to a teammate. What I see with the Sharks is that they are playing a mostly dump and chase type game offensively unless Celebrini is the one to carry the puck up the ice with forwards that aren't good at getting the puck back once they give it up. Zetterlund is really our only plus sized forward that has some amount of skill, but even he is not great at puck retrieval.

Warsofsky seems to me like one of those coaches that has a system that he wants players to conform to instead of building his system around the players he actually has. Smaller teams should be trying to possess the puck for as long as they can with skill and passing. If your players aren't skilled enough, drill them to be as skilled as they are capable of being. Our style of play seems to just exhaust our players as they try to play a style they are ill-suited for which is why they give up so many third period leads.

 

[coooldude]

What frustrates me though is that I agree with Larionov - the best defense is offense ours, but we don't play like we understand that concept.

Larionov was a smurf. Like Lane Hutson sized smurf, in an era that punished small players far more than it does now. His solution to the problem above was not to give up the puck when he had it unless it was to pass to a teammate. What I see with the Sharks is that they are playing a mostly dump and chase type game offensively unless Celebrini is the one to carry the puck up the ice with forwards that aren't good at getting the puck back once they give it up. Zetterlund is really our only plus sized forward that has some amount of skill, but even he is not great at puck retrieval.

Warsofsky seems to me like one of those coaches that has a system that he wants players to conform to instead of building his system around the players he actually has. Smaller teams should be trying to possess the puck for as long as they can with skill and passing. If your players aren't skilled enough, drill them to be as skilled as they are capable of being. Our style of play seems to just exhaust our players as they try to play a style they are ill-suited for which is why they give up so many third period leads.

Larionov was a hall of famer... Celebrini is potentially the only current roster player with that kind of upside. My point wasn't that we should just do what Larionov said, but that we don't actually have a skilled/strong enough team to even try.

I guarantee you Warsofsky is not saying "please, guys, try to get a quick shot on goal and don't worry about puck possession." The problem is, our guys get knocked off the puck.

I guarantee you Warsofsky isn't saying "you HAVE to dump it in." the problem is, only 3 forwards and sometimes one D can actually stickhandle thru the NZ, and that's in order, Celebrini, Eklund, Granlund, Walman. Nobody else has the skill to do it - so you play smart hockey and make it a 200ft game. The F chips it deep, or the D drives it in hard for the far side wing to chase and try to force a turnover. It's been working fine. We're only barely the worst defensive team in the NHL and we're like the 5th worst offensive team. Light years better than last year.

You have to have a system. We have a team that's so poor that you have to have a baseline system and the team has to play in it. We don't have a single player who we should design a system around, and as it is Celebrini does have some leeway to try to drive the rush in his unique way.

You don't think our team is trying to possess the puck for as long as they can in the OZ with skill and passing? They absolutely are, but none of them are Larionov/Makarov, historical players, and they get frozen on the boards or knocked off the puck or make an errant pass.

As I've argued in the past, I'm guessing Warsofsky is basically a replacement-level NHL coach until he proves otherwise. 20 other NHL coaches would probably get similar results to this team. 5 might be a lot worse, 5 might be a bit better.