GDT: CBJ @ Toronto...Dare I say, this is one is critical?!?

[koteka]

Its odd that you can admit to when we have a shortage of information (with respect to Lindstrom) but that is of little concern to you when talking about Boone's leadership.

Shortage of information? We have a ton of information.

Team captain in 21-22: 81 points
Team captain in 22-23: 59 points
Team captain in 23-24: 61 points
missed most of 24-25: 26-22-8 (60 points in 56 games)
came back in 24-25: team is 8-11-1 (17 points in 20 games)

We also have that interview during the whole Spittin Chicklets Mike Babcock drama that shows that he either didn’t talk to the younger players or he disregarded their concerns.

The one time this team has looked good in 4 seasons was when he was injured and not with the team day to day for most of the season (including the beginning).

Can Boone Jenner get important points in games? Absolutely. Can he lead a team? Doesn’t look like it.

I don’t place all the blame on Boone’s shoulders. But he does deserve his fair share.

 

[koteka]

And he's not the type of loudmouth to suck the oxygen out of the room (like JT Miller) and prevent leaders like Z or Ollie from speaking up.

Weren’t there rumors last season that other players were told to stop talking and let Boone lead? That might have been Jarmo or Vincent and not Boone, but the effect is the same.

 

[majormajor]

Shortage of information? We have a ton of information.

Team captain in 21-22: 81 points
Team captain in 22-23: 59 points
Team captain in 23-24: 61 points
missed most of 24-25: 26-22-8 (60 points in 56 games)
came back in 24-25: team is 8-11-1 (17 points in 20 games)

We also have that interview during the whole Spittin Chicklets Mike Babcock drama that shows that he either didn’t talk to the younger players or he disregarded their concerns.

The one time this team has looked good in 4 seasons was when he was injured and not with the team day to day for most of the season (including the beginning).

Can Boone Jenner get important points in games? Absolutely. Can he lead a team? Doesn’t look like it.

I don’t place all the blame on Boone’s shoulders. But he does deserve his fair share.

One could do the same exercise with Ryan O'Reilly in Buffalo. It would be foolish in that case and foolish in this one.

You could just as easily say that Boone's presence on those bad teams with god awful rosters filled with Boqvists and countless useless players was one of the few things that kept them from absolute ignominy. Either way it is not information you can use to assess a player's leadership.

Weren’t there rumors last season that other players were told to stop talking and let Boone lead? That might have been Jarmo or Vincent and not Boone, but the effect is the same.

That wasn't about Boone. That was about keeping our leaders (Guddy and company AND Boone) from being too strict with young players and skittish players like Laine. They were afraid of dissension in the room so they opted for a very low standard of conduct and an absolute mess on the ice.

 

[Theo Von]

Yes I'm sure it is the fault of the guy who has 18 pts in those 19 games and is not a negative plus/minus player in that span. With this type of brilliant analysis you might as well blame Monahan for our latest string of losses.

Yep, that’s the record. But you bringing it up means you believe there’s a causal relationship and would ask for the specifics that lead you to infer Boone is the cause.

why am I catching strays? i’m not the one who asked the damn question. I was only answering a question someone posted. goodness.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I was one who was critical and questioning Boone last season as a leader but I don't think he's the reason now.

Even though he hasn't been on the ice he has been around the team all season. As I understand it, both he and Gudbranson have been constant presences in the locker room through their recovieres.

Did the amount of players who recovered late this season upset on ice chemistry? Quite possibly but I'm not sure leadership is the issue. It's still performance in my mind.

 

[koteka]

Either way it is not information you can use to assess a player's leadership.

The team record is absolutely the number one way to assess leadership. It is not the only way, but to say it is foolish to use whether the team wins or not as an indication of a guy being a good captain is what is foolish. What is the number one indicator of Toews being a great leader? It is the freaking Cups that Chicago won.

 

[Long Live Lyle]

The team record is absolutely the number one way to assess leadership. It is not the only way, but to say it is foolish to use whether the team wins or not as an indication of a guy being a good captain is what is foolish. What is the number one indicator of Toews being a great leader? It is the freaking Cups that Chicago won.

It’s part of it, but not the only thing. Ironically, speaking of Chicago, the best stretch of our organizational history was with Foligno as captain (including 4 straight playoff berths); meanwhile, Chicago sucks right now with him as captain. I don’t think he’s worse as a leader now than he was 5 years ago. Talent matters (and matters much more than leadership; leadership can be the differentiator on the margins, but if your team’s talent sucks, your team’s talent sucks).

 

[koteka]

It’s part of it, but not the only thing. Ironically, speaking of Chicago, the best stretch of our organizational history was with Foligno as captain (including 4 straight playoff berths); meanwhile, Chicago sucks right now with him as captain. I don’t think he’s worse as a leader now than he was 5 years ago. Talent matters (and matters much more than leadership; leadership can be the differentiator on the margins, but if your team’s talent sucks, your team’s talent sucks).

My guess is Foligno is now a different kind of leader. He knows what his job is and it is not to try to win Cups. He is there to teach guys like Connor Bedard how to play NHL hockey so in a few years, when Foligno is retired, and the young guys have matured, they have a chance to compete for Cups. This current Foligno leadership probably includes a lot of off ice stuff like don’t fall into the party lifestyle or eat right and take care if your body or how to do interviews. That does not appear to be the type of leader Jenner has tried to be. It is certainly not the type of leader Jarmo wanted Boone to be.

 

[majormajor]

The team record is absolutely the number one way to assess leadership. It is not the only way, but to say it is foolish to use whether the team wins or not as an indication of a guy being a good captain is what is foolish. What is the number one indicator of Toews being a great leader? It is the freaking Cups that Chicago won.

The 2017-18 Sabres had 62 pts, an absolutely abysmal season. That team had Ryan O'Reilly, Jack Eichel, and Sam Reinhart on it. By your method every one of those guys is a bad leader. And they all went on to win cups elsewhere.

The information is not usable. You may as well consult the oracles and try sinking some witches.

My guess is Foligno is now a different kind of leader. He knows what his job is and it is not to try to win Cups. He is there to teach guys like Connor Bedard how to play NHL hockey so in a few years, when Foligno is retired, and the young guys have matured, they have a chance to compete for Cups. This current Foligno leadership probably includes a lot of off ice stuff like don’t fall into the party lifestyle or eat right and take care if your body or how to do interviews. That does not appear to be the type of leader Jenner has tried to be. It is certainly not the type of leader Jarmo wanted Boone to be.

The one difference we observe is that Foligno is a lot more comfortable treating his job like its part of a reality tv show. So we could see him doing things. We don't see Jenner doing as much off ice stuff, which is actually more akin to most players in the league. So in that absence of information you're just imagining that he doesn't mentor players or guide them, a work of pure fiction. A lack of information and a work of pure imagination.

 

[koteka]

The 2017-18 Sabres had 62 pts, an absolutely abysmal season. That team had Ryan O'Reilly, Jack Eichel, and Sam Reinhart on it. By your method every one of those guys is a bad leader. And they all went on to win cups elsewhere.

The information is not usable. You may as well consult the oracles and try sinking some witches.

You keep using the same example as the reason to totally negate the idea of looking at team success as an indicator of how good a captain is. Yes, record is not the end all be all. But that doesn’t mean it is not a good indicator. Buffalo sucks. They are probably an outlier for a lot of things that are generally true. I think a team needs a good #1 defenseman to be successful. Buffalo has that and they aren’t successful.

The Jackets suck when Boone is the captain. Maybe the problem is he is not the captain they need right now, and they have needed more of a Foligno-in-Chicago teach the young guys captain and Boone has tried to be the Foligno-in-Columbus try to win a Cup captain. And maybe that is Jarmo’s fault. But Boone has not been a good captain. Maybe Buffalo never had that teach the young guys type captain and that is why ROR could win a Cup in St. Louis but not in Buffalo and Buffalo can’t figure out how to win..

 

[CBJx614]

You keep using the same example as the reason to totally negate the idea of looking at team success as an indicator of how good a captain is. Yes, record is not the end all be all. But that doesn’t mean it is not a good indicator. Buffalo sucks. They are probably an outlier for a lot of things that are generally true. I think a team needs a good #1 defenseman to be successful. Buffalo has that and they aren’t successful.

The Jackets suck when Boone is the captain. Maybe the problem is he is not the captain they need right now, and they have needed more of a Foligno-in-Chicago teach the young guys captain and Boone has tried to be the Foligno-in-Columbus try to win a Cup captain. And maybe that is Jarmo’s fault. But Boone has not been a good captain. Maybe Buffalo never had that teach the young guys type captain and that is why ROR could win a Cup in St. Louis but not in Buffalo and Buffalo can’t figure out how to win..

Without being a player in the locker room it's basically impossible to know if someone is a good or bad leader...