Line Combos: CBJ Roster Discussion/Line Combos/Injury Report

[ViD]

Why would we abandon Fantilli at C ?

 

[LJ7]

Trying this exercise with only UFAs.

Chinakhov-Monahan-Marchenko
Voronkov-Fantilli-Kuzmenko/Brindley
Johnson-Jenner-Nyquist (love this one)
Sillinger-Bjugstad-Danforth
JVR, ZAR

Obviously in this scenario Chinakhov's back gets figured out, but he was really good with that top line. The team was at its best with 3 scoring lines. I honestly don't know much about Kuzmenko but I think he might fit well with Fantilli and Voronkov specifically, especially if Fantilli becomes a bit better at winning pucks. Maybe we could be a good landing spot for Kuzmenko with the Russian guys here, and they could either vouch for him or warn against acquiring him depending on what they hear through the Russian grapevine.

I tried a UFA only revamp of the defense and it was so difficult that I just took it as a sign to expect hockey trades this summer for the blue line.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Why would we abandon Fantilli at C ?

We shouldn’t. He’s 20 years old and going through lumps. It happens. He was compared to MacKinnon stylistically coming out of the draft and it took him a few years to figure it out. Not to mention Fantilli basically has only played one full season and some change.

If he’s still this way at, say, 22? Then yeah maybe things need to change.

 

[ViD]

Trying this exercise with only UFAs.

Chinakhov-Monahan-Marchenko
Voronkov-Fantilli-Kuzmenko/Brindley
Johnson-Jenner-Nyquist (love this one)
Sillinger-Bjugstad-Danforth
JVR, ZAR

Obviously in this scenario Chinakhov's back gets figured out, but he was really good with that top line. The team was at its best with 3 scoring lines. I honestly don't know much about Kuzmenko but I think he might fit well with Fantilli and Voronkov specifically, especially if Fantilli becomes a bit better at winning pucks. Maybe we could be a good landing spot for Kuzmenko with the Russian guys here, and they could either vouch for him or warn against acquiring him depending on what they hear through the Russian grapevine.

I tried a UFA only revamp of the defense and it was so difficult that I just took it as a sign to expect hockey trades this summer for the blue line.

Kuzmenko is somewhat like Laine, he will excite you with his skills, but his skating and defensive game will have you pulling your hair out

 

[majormajor]

@majormajor just one question, why bring back Kuraly?

He's not good but I need to pencil in someone for cheap at 14F and the quality of players available for that role is very low. Heck compared to many of the 4Cs we've had in franchise history, Kuraly is fine.

Why would we abandon Fantilli at C ?

There's nothing to abandon. He thinks like a winger in every respect, we should avoid years of trying to jam a square peg in a round hole. Or perhaps try again a few years down the road. We could use an elite scoring winger more than we can use a winger pretending to play center.

We shouldn’t. He’s 20 years old and going through lumps. It happens. He was compared to MacKinnon stylistically coming out of the draft and it took him a few years to figure it out. Not to mention Fantilli basically has only played one full season and some change.

If he’s still this way at, say, 22? Then yeah maybe things need to change.

The truth is that Mackinnon had some predictable rush tendencies that he fixed, when he added a lot of deception to his game, and those predictable rush tendencies are the part where Fantilli reminds me of Mackinnon. But in terms of driving play from the center position, there is no comparison. Mackinnon was good at it even before he became a big scorer. Fantilli doesn't do it at all.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

The truth is that Mackinnon had some predictable rush tendencies that he fixed, when he added a lot of deception to his game, and those predictable rush tendencies are the part where Fantilli reminds me of Mackinnon. But in terms of driving play from the center position, there is no comparison. Mackinnon was good at it even before he became a big scorer. Fantilli doesn't do it at

So you just give up on it?

 

[majormajor]

So you just give up on it?

We're starting with someone who has zero natural aptitude for the position, you might as well ask why we're giving up on Marchenko or Werenski as a center. Do you not believe in Marchenko? Why are you giving up?

In a couple years I wouldn't be opposed to trying Fantilli at center, after his brain catches up with his body. I would rather skip over the two years of failure and have an elite scoring winger in the meantime. That's a very good thing to have.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

We're starting with someone who has zero natural aptitude for the position, you might as well ask why we're giving up on Marchenko or Werenski as a center. Do you not believe in Marchenko? Why are you giving up?

In a couple years I wouldn't be opposed to trying Fantilli at center, after his brain catches up with his body. I would rather skip over the two years of failure and have an elite scoring winger in the meantime. That's a very good thing to have.

I just can’t agree with “starting at zero”. He’s been a center his whole life. And yeah, he’s largely been more talented than his peers and has gotten away with things, but that doesn’t mean he’s completely lost. The whole team is pressing right now.

 

[majormajor]

I just can’t agree with “starting at zero”. He’s been a center his whole life. And yeah, he’s largely been more talented than his peers and has gotten away with things, but that doesn’t mean he’s completely lost. The whole team is pressing right now.

A large portion of the league were centers until they got to the pros. It doesn't count for much.

 

[Cowumbus]

Chinakhov-Monahan-Marchenko

Who will play 1LW for the other 40-50 games when he’s out?

Voronkov-Fantilli-Kuzmenko/Brindley

Brindley’s odds to make the team next year (as bad as I want it to happen) I would say are very low, and by his standards his year in CLE was not very good. We need him to bulk up a little more and then hit the ground running like Nazar did.

But in terms of driving play from the center position, there is no comparison. Mackinnon was good at it even before he became a big scorer. Fantilli doesn't do it at all.

Now this is quite interesting. How do you define driving play? For me it’s a combination of transition ability, and playmaking. But if I’m being honest, I think I weigh the transition game slightly more 60/40, as controlling the puck into the Ozone is crucial. Now, if you can recall when we drafted Fantilli, I said (and other UM fans), Brindley was the one driving play (Which is also why I am so high on Brindley, because play drivers are insanely valuable) Brindley was the one gaining entries into the zone, Fantilli was scoring. So I do agree with you 100p on that front. However, I think with Fantilli’s puck skills and skating ability there is no reason he can’t develop that area (which might be why you are wanting him on the wing short term), thoughts?

 

[ViD]

Who will play 1LW for the other 40-50 games when he’s out?

And who’s going to play C for 20-30 games when Monahan out ? He’s just as fragile as Chinakhov

 

[KJ Dangler]

He's not good but I need to pencil in someone for cheap at 14F and the quality of players available for that role is very low. Heck compared to many of the 4Cs we've had in franchise history, Kuraly is fine.



There's nothing to abandon. He thinks like a winger in every respect, we should avoid years of trying to jam a square peg in a round hole. Or perhaps try again a few years down the road. We could use an elite scoring winger more than we can use a winger pretending to play center.



The truth is that Mackinnon had some predictable rush tendencies that he fixed, when he added a lot of deception to his game, and those predictable rush tendencies are the part where Fantilli reminds me of Mackinnon. But in terms of driving play from the center position, there is no comparison. Mackinnon was good at it even before he became a big scorer. Fantilli doesn't do it at all.

Honestly it seems you have a certain mindset what a center has to be .. The game is changing.. I can promise you the front office is ecstatic with what Fantilli is doing at the center position , and the development steps he’s taken . The kid is 20 years old

 

[Cowumbus]

And who’s going to play C for 20-30 games when Monahan out ? He’s just as fragile as Chinakhov

Agreed

But we can’t build a roster full I’ve injury prone dudes. I’ll take Monahan - the guy who has proven something at the NHL level.

 

[CBJx614]

If there's one thing I'm certain of, it's that I'm not gonna bother trying to put together line combos until about August

 

[majormajor]

Now this is quite interesting. How do you define driving play? For me it’s a combination of transition ability, and playmaking. But if I’m being honest, I think I weigh the transition game slightly more 60/40, as controlling the puck into the Ozone is crucial.

Driving play is a term used now by analysts synonymously with driving xG%. Or useful zone time in some sense. That can be somewhat debated I'm sure. Anyways it sounds like you're using it in a similar way if you are concerned about who is creating offensive zone puck control.

Fantilli might seem to be good at it because he has the ability to get the puck into the offensive zone. But from there it quickly goes back into our end. His linemates are marginalized, they tend to see their own chance creation fall off when they get placed next to Fantilli. His xG% is JJ/ Gudbranson level bad, ahead of only one regular and that is the other pretend-center who suddenly looks better on the wing.

Now, if you can recall when we drafted Fantilli, I said (and other UM fans), Brindley was the one driving play (Which is also why I am so high on Brindley, because play drivers are insanely valuable) Brindley was the one gaining entries into the zone, Fantilli was scoring. So I do agree with you 100p on that front. However, I think with Fantilli’s puck skills and skating ability there is no reason he can’t develop that area (which might be why you are wanting him on the wing short term), thoughts?

He has the physical ability to do the center job, of course. So do most of the wingers out there. Almost all of them are faster than Sean Monahan and a good number of them can dangle faster than Monahan. It's about the decision making and vision - if you can "see" the play around you and set up a teammate with the puck and some space in front of them to skate into.

Part of this is quite simple - Fantilli is an F1 (tends to be first forward on the attack) and he can make incredible passes when he slows up and identifies the F2/F3 coming behind him with speed. His set up to Marchenko a few weeks ago was sublime. So getting him to curl up inside the blue line much more often (should be >>50% of the attacks) should be a simple step. But he's still rarely doing it, preferring to play defenders 1 on 1. He needs to learn to curl up whether he's a winger or a center. F1 attackers like that are most valuable when they curl up and bring their teammates in - think of what Marner and Panarin do. Somewhat less valuable than that are the Ehlers types who are so fast or so skilled that they just keep it themselves and maybe wheel the zone. Guys who shoot right away, when their teammates aren't in the zone yet? That's like Josh Anderson and Miles Wood type of stuff.

(I would be using center F1 comps, they do exist and it can work but I'm having trouble thinking of one that I can compare Fantilli to).

I think Fantilli can get better in his end - the Matinpalo goal is the type of mistake that young centers make, it's not a big deal. We know he can get the puck from one end to the other. Theoretically we should be able to get him to curl up inside the zone and feed a teammate, it shouldn't be this hard. But he thinks like a high octane winger, you really have to break down his entire mindset for the game if you want him to learn to think the team game. And you're not helping him do that if there is this unconditional insistence that he is a center. Tell him he can be a center if he plays the team game. I think it might be a couple years before he's mentally ready for it - and I mean that both in his general processing ability and experience but also his maturity about where he's really at as a player.

For now I'd love to see him with Monahan. They had one game together and not coincidentally Fantilli had his best chance creation of the year that game. Monahan is the guy he listens to most, and Monahan isn't going to let Fantilli one-and-done all night. After learning that team structure we can talk about whether Fantilli is ready to play center.

 

[VT]

Trying this exercise with only UFAs.

Chinakhov-Monahan-Marchenko
Voronkov-Fantilli-Kuzmenko/Brindley
Johnson-Jenner-Nyquist (love this one)
Sillinger-Bjugstad-Danforth
JVR, ZAR

Obviously in this scenario Chinakhov's back gets figured out, but he was really good with that top line. The team was at its best with 3 scoring lines. I honestly don't know much about Kuzmenko but I think he might fit well with Fantilli and Voronkov specifically, especially if Fantilli becomes a bit better at winning pucks. Maybe we could be a good landing spot for Kuzmenko with the Russian guys here, and they could either vouch for him or warn against acquiring him depending on what they hear through the Russian grapevine.

I tried a UFA only revamp of the defense and it was so difficult that I just took it as a sign to expect hockey trades this summer for the blue line.

Maybe it is time to trade Chinakhov and Jenner. Also we don't need Kuzmenko but a player who can win under pressure. Andrei is not that guy.

I would like to get Bennett. But the most important - a new goalie.

Voronkov - Monahan - Marchenko
Fantilli - Bennett - Johnson

But I am not sure Voronkov will stay and does not return to Ak Bars.

 

[majormajor]

Im not denying that. I'm gonna say this without looking so feel free to burn me on this, but what did he do to the rest of the players on his lines? Did they get better or worse?

Again, I don't want to be put in a position to hate on Boone. I love Boone. I think he can still be an elite 3rd line player and still chip in plenty of points. Hed stay fresher too.

I don't have a problem with good players being on the third line and having that be a scoring line, but the argument that Boone is not 2nd line caliber is on very shaky ground. He has the top scoring rate on the team, and his linemates are better with him than without him.

Fantilli is at 1.99 P/60 on the season (a good 2nd line number) and 3.22 P/60 when he's on the ice with Boone Jenner.

Kent Johnson is at 2.3 P/60 on the season and 2.57 P/60 with Boone Jenner.

As I've been saying, there is a MUCH better argument that Fantilli and KJ have negative chemistry with each other than they have negative chemistry with Boone Jenner.

KJ drops to 1.59 P/60 with Fantilli and Fantilli is even with KJ.

(This is too much to hyperlink but you can find it all on NST player pages under teammates.)

 

[koteka]

I don't have a problem with good players being on the third line and having that be a scoring line, but the argument that Boone is not 2nd line caliber is on very shaky ground.

I think Jenner is a top 6 forward and a legit 2c. You won’t find posts where I try to make him a 3rd line wing. But you think I hate him.

I don’t often post lines, but my top 3 lines now that we are out of the playoffs would probably be

Marchenko - Boone - Fantilli / Marchenko - Fantilli - Boone
JVR - Monahan - Sillinger / JVR - Sillinger - Monahan
Voronkov - KJ - Chinakhov

It is time for some teaching/learning before the off season. Let Fantilli work some with Boone. Let Sillinger play with two smart vets. Let KJ get some time as a center. Before the @majormajor goes off that he wants Fantilli with Monahan, I’d probably agree with that, but I would wait and start Marchenko - Monahan - Fantilli as my top line next season.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[Indy18]

God I love when someone does the "This is above my paygrade" answer. You know they wanna say it but can't

 

[CBJWerenski8]

To me, this clarifies a lot of things.

I forget when it was said, but I feel like it was around January, where Evason said that Greaves deserved to be here. Literally within a week or two he was sent back. Which to me was puzzling after a strong statement like that.

Evason saying he deserved to be here was him publicly pounding the table (after he had probably been doing it behind the scenes) to get Jet up here as he was their best goalie. Likely to the expense of Tarasov. Waddell, like he did with Mateychuk earlier in the year, said no that he needed more seasoning (or whatever excuse he wanted to use) and sent him back rather than waiving Tarasov, and gave him a vote of confidence.

Tonights quote was Evason throwing his hands up and saying to Waddell publicly that Jet should have been here all along.

 

[majormajor]

To me, this clarifies a lot of things.

I forget when it was said, but I feel like it was around January, where Evason said that Greaves deserved to be here. Literally within a week or two he was sent back. Which to me was puzzling after a strong statement like that.

Evason saying he deserved to be here was him publicly pounding the table (after he had probably been doing it behind the scenes) to get Jet up here as he was their best goalie. Likely to the expense of Tarasov. Waddell, like he did with Mateychuk earlier in the year, said no that he needed more seasoning (or whatever excuse he wanted to use) and sent him back rather than waiving Tarasov, and gave him a vote of confidence.

Tonights quote was Evason throwing his hands up and saying to Waddell publicly that Jet should have been here all along.

I also imagine it going like that. Still unclear what Waddell's reasons were. Was it about giving Tarasov another shot? Was there something they wanted Jet to learn in Cleveland?

 

[stevo61]

I also imagine it going like that. Still unclear what Waddell's reasons were. Was it about giving Tarasov another shot? Was there something they wanted Jet to learn in Cleveland?

probably a combo. Cleveland and many players also benefit from a run but Waddell seemed like he wanted to exhaust every opportunity to know 6'5" Tarasov wasn't the guy. Felt like he was excited as much about the size as anything

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

To me, this clarifies a lot of things.

I forget when it was said, but I feel like it was around January, where Evason said that Greaves deserved to be here. Literally within a week or two he was sent back. Which to me was puzzling after a strong statement like that.

Evason saying he deserved to be here was him publicly pounding the table (after he had probably been doing it behind the scenes) to get Jet up here as he was their best goalie. Likely to the expense of Tarasov. Waddell, like he did with Mateychuk earlier in the year, said no that he needed more seasoning (or whatever excuse he wanted to use) and sent him back rather than waiving Tarasov, and gave him a vote of confidence.

Tonights quote was Evason throwing his hands up and saying to Waddell publicly that Jet should have been here all along.

Evason is probably thinking win now. DW is playing the patient let him develop and have more success in Cleveland approach so hopeful sustained long term success of this team.

It's clear he has no patience with Tarasov. I also think DW knows the D is weak and he didn't want to subject Jet to having to play behind it regularly. Find some better players next season and set him up for continued success.