Line Combos: CBJ Roster Discussion/Line Combos/Injury Report

[koteka]

Gavrikov is having his best season yet playing 25 minutes a night on the right side for the Kings.

He will also be 30 at the start of next season and will be paid an obscene amount of money.

Now, if you want to argue that Jarmo and whichever coach were morons because they never tried Gavrikov on the right side next to Werenski, you won’t get an argument from me.

Personally I’d rather spend my time looking for legit guys in their mid 20s we could target. A few summers ago I was suggesting Rasmus Andersson.

Post in thread 'UFA Frenzy/Offseason Discussion 2'

Jul 20, 2022

The guy we could use who plays for the Flames is Rasmus Andersson - a top pair right D who would compliment Werenski who is on a good contract. But we have already taken 2 guys from Calgary including a right D. I don’t think they’ll talk to us, and we can’t afford to sign Tkachuk to a new contract.

• koteka

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[Crede777]

I wasn't comparing Provorov to Gavrikov necessarily in terms of ability.

I was comparing their situations. Very simply, if we do not extend Provorov, I think the Jackets will quickly regret it like they did with Gavrikov. If we're going into next season with a 2nd pairing of Mateychuk - Severson, the team will be in big trouble.

 

[Fred Glover]

I wasn't comparing Provorov to Gavrikov necessarily in terms of ability.

I was comparing their situations. Very simply, if we do not extend Provorov, I think the Jackets will quickly regret it like they did with Gavrikov. If we're going into next season with a 2nd pairing of Mateychuk - Severson, the team will be in big trouble.

And I remember not too long ago when some were complaining about acquiring Provorov

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I wasn't comparing Provorov to Gavrikov necessarily in terms of ability.

I was comparing their situations. Very simply, if we do not extend Provorov, I think the Jackets will quickly regret it like they did with Gavrikov. If we're going into next season with a 2nd pairing of Mateychuk - Severson, the team will be in big trouble.

Except Jarmo did everything he could to extend Gavrikov. The player (through his agent) made it clear he was heading to free agency. If the team hadn’t read him, woolen would have been complaining about not maximizing assets or something.

 

[Crede777]

Except Jarmo did everything he could to extend Gavrikov. The player (through his agent) made it clear he was heading to free agency. If the team hadn’t read him, woolen would have been complaining about not maximizing assets or something.

That's not true. Gavrikov wanted a long term deal while Jarmo was going shorter term.

I looked for the Portzline tweet that said the term difference but can't find it. Here's a quote though from Portzline's article saying that term was the sticking point:

Gavrikov, in the final year of a contract that carries a $2.8 million cap hit, is an unrestricted free agent this summer. Talks between Milstein and the Blue Jackets on a contract extension never gained much traction, with the two sides sitting far apart on the length of a new deal.

Blue Jackets GM Jarmo Kekalainen moves on, renews search for Vladislav Gavrikov trade

“We would have never taken him out of the lineup unless we had an offer on the table,” the Blue Jackets GM said.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

That's not true. Gavrikov wanted a long term deal while Jarmo was going shorter term.

I looked for the Portzline tweet that said the term difference but can't find it. Here's a quote though from Portzline's article saying that term was the sticking point:

Blue Jackets GM Jarmo Kekalainen moves on, renews search for Vladislav Gavrikov trade

“We would have never taken him out of the lineup unless we had an offer on the table,” the Blue Jackets GM said.

www.nytimes.com

My bad. Thanks for the refresher. I wonder what I thought of all that at the time. I was a big Gavrikov fan, not only for his play but his presence in the room.

 

[CBJx614]

I don’t see the point in arguing about Gavrikov vs Provorov when what we really need (and where we should invest the money) is a right defenseman. We have Werenski, and Mateychuk looks like a guy who could be a legit 2LD by the 26-27 season (if not earlier). The only possible reason you sign an expensive vet left D is if you have decided to trade Mateychuk for another young talented guy (Nemec for example).

Now, if you want to argue about which is better, I suggest you grab @ViD and debate hypothetical team Russia lineups.

You can't want a RD all you want, but if one isn't available you have to make do with what's available to you.

 

[majormajor]

Now, if you want to argue that Jarmo and whichever coach were morons because they never tried Gavrikov on the right side next to Werenski, you won’t get an argument from me.

Was there a reasonable expectation that he would put Gavrikov at 1RD? No. I'm not going to call someone a moron for not doing an entirely unexpected thing.

Personally I’d rather spend my time looking for legit guys in their mid 20s we could target. A few summers ago I was suggesting Rasmus Andersson.

Post in thread 'UFA Frenzy/Offseason Discussion 2'

Jul 20, 2022

The guy we could use who plays for the Flames is Rasmus Andersson - a top pair right D who would compliment Werenski who is on a good contract. But we have already taken 2 guys from Calgary including a right D. I don’t think they’ll talk to us, and we can’t afford to sign Tkachuk to a new contract.

• koteka

• 

He wasn't available then. You can't really pat yourself on the back for wanting a widely liked mid 20s D who is not available.

My bad. Thanks for the refresher. I wonder what I thought of all that at the time. I was a big Gavrikov fan, not only for his play but his presence in the room.

I was a Gavrikov defender at the time (there were people who didn't think he was very good) but I'm guessing I wasn't in favor of a super long term deal (like the $5.75m x 8 I imagine he was looking for). Now we would consider ourselves lucky to have him at that price for the next 6 years.

 

[stevo61]

I'd like a Cale Makar. Make it happen Waddell

 

[Youngguns1380]

This new forum stinks you can’t get to the last page unless you post

 

[thebus88]

Another way to look at that - Fabbro hasn't stopped his D partner from playing at NHL MVP level over the last month. That's a good thing, right? And for a guy who doesn't need a huge contract, that's a very good thing, right?

What is the goal? For the team to win hockey games, or for Werenski to win a trophy? Werenski looks good because of Zack Werenski, not Fabbro.

And I’ll ask this question, when the team is down, and in need of a goal, who does Evason pair with Werenski? Why??

There isn’t a single (top 6) defenseman on the roster who has made a difference on how Werenski has performed, produced, or looked on the ice this year. Each guy has had good and bad games.

There's a difference being top pairing defenseman and being able to play in top pair. I'm just hoping that Fabbro and his agent understand that.

He hasn’t done anything that all the other defenseman have done. If we have literally one of the best defensemen in the league, his pairing should actually be more impactful than it has been, IMO. I genuinely think Fabbro is a negative playing top pairing minutes, and or regularly with Werenski. Again, down 2 goals in the 3rd, Werenski gets a different partner. Why?

To me, the question isn't what they should do with Provorov but instead what can they do with Severson whose TOI/G is dwindling under Evason and whose 2nd PP spot was taken by Provorov and Mateychuk without a fight.

When the team is down a goal late in the 3rd period. Who does Evason pair with Werenski??

 

[DankoCBJ]

Provorov is the perfect example of a defenceman that looks better for a casual viewer than he really is. He plays a lot and does stuff, but he doesnt do that stuff very well. His good skating and heavy usage (playing minutes) give you the impression that he is good, sometimes even great. But the reality is that he is very average and actually quite poor at defending.

This is a few years old card, but he hasnt changed.

 

[koteka]

You can't want a RD all you want, but if one isn't available you have to make do with what's available to you.

We keep hearing the team wants to make a hockey trade so I expect a hockey trade to get a right D. I also think it will include someone people don’t want to trade. My expectation is Voronkov could be involved. And it could land us a right D that another team’s fans don’t want to trade. I think we need to look for a team with good defense that could use more offense. Which is how we landed Seth Jones. It isn’t common for teams to move right D, but Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson is another example. Makes more sense to me than pining for Gavi or extending Provorov.

 

[Aaaarrgghh]

We keep hearing the team wants to make a hockey trade so I expect a hockey trade to get a right D. I also think it will include someone people don’t want to trade. My expectation is Voronkov could be involved. And it could land us a right D that another team’s fans don’t want to trade. I think we need to look for a team with good defense that could use more offense. Which is how we landed Seth Jones. It isn’t common for teams to move right D, but Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson is another example. Makes more sense to me than pining for Gavi or extending Provorov.

I'd expect Sillinger or Chinakhov to be included before Voronkov. It would have to be a very signficant upgrade on RHD to motivate including him, especially considering the Blue Jackets' extra draft capital.

 

[koteka]

I'd expect Sillinger or Chinakhov to be included before Voronkov. It would have to be a very signficant upgrade on RHD to motivate including him, especially considering the Blue Jackets' extra draft capital.

What makes you think Sillinger or Chinakhov get you a decent right D? We are talking hockey trade. Not “let’s give up guys we are willing to give up and hope it gets us an upgrade” trade. It has to involve someone you don’t want to trade. Most of this board is like “he are seven guys I refuse to trade and let’s see what we can get by trading other pieces.” Life doesn’t work that way. Go back and read the reactions to the RyJo - Jones trade. There were people who were pissed. That is a hockey trade. That is what I expect. I think the board will melt down when we make a trade because we will give up someone people don’t want to give up. Wads will be called every name in the book. So will the GM of the other team involved in the trade.

 

[Aaaarrgghh]

What makes you think Sillinger or Chinakhov get you a decent right D? We are talking hockey trade. Not “let’s give up guys we are willing to give up and hope it gets us an upgrade” trade. It has to involve someone you don’t want to trade. Most of this board is like “he are seven guys I refuse to trade and let’s see what we can get by trading other pieces.” Life doesn’t work that way. Go back and read the reactions to the RyJo - Jones trade. There were people who were pissed. That is a hockey trade. That is what I expect. I think the board will melt down when we make a trade because we will give up someone people don’t want to give up. Wads will be called every name in the book. So will the GM of the other team involved in the trade.

To my recollection, Waddell has talked about hockey trades specifically in relation to the deadline. I.e. he won't trade guys like Kuraly, van Riemsdyk and Provorov to the highest bidder just because they are pending UFAs. Particularly in relation to a guy like Provorov, that to me would seem to indicate trading him, being a more mature player, to a contender for a younger player that can't get that chance on said team rather than trading Voronkov.

I can definitely see Waddell making a controversial trade in the off-season, but my point was that Voronkov's value should be very high and if they do trade him, that would have to be for just the right player. Given the amount of draft capital they have and what Waddell has said regarding loving deals at the draft, my point was that a trade involving picks and players like Sillinger and Chinakhov (who I don't at all think is a throwaway piece, by the way) is more likely than a trade involving Voronkov. Could Voronkov be traded? Sure, anyone could be moved. But I think it's unlikely.

EDIT #1: A better phrasing might be that I hope that it's unlikely.

EDIT #2: Also, there are many examples of quantity-for-quality trades. They are indeed part of life.

 

[KJ Dangler]

To my recollection, Waddell has talked about hockey trades specifically in relation to the deadline. I.e. he won't trade guys like Kuraly, van Riemsdyk and Provorov to the highest bidder just because they are pending UFAs. Particularly in relation to a guy like Provorov, that to me would seem to indicate trading him, being a more mature player, to a contender for a younger player that can't get that chance on said team rather than trading Voronkov.

I can definitely see Waddell making a controversial trade in the off-season, but my point was that Voronkov's value should be very high and if they do trade him, that would have to be for just the right player. Given the amount of draft capital they have and what Waddell has said regarding loving deals at the draft, my point was that a trade involving picks and players like Sillinger and Chinakhov (who I don't at all think is a throwaway piece, by the way) is more likely than a trade involving Voronkov. Could Voronkov be traded? Sure, anyone could be moved. But I think it's unlikely.

Voronkov has become near untouchable .You don’t trade 6ft 5 240 with hands like his , plus his hockey sense is off the charts … Guys that could be moved in a hockey trade .. Sillinger, Chinakov, Jenner…

 

[alphafox]

Voronkov has become near untouchable .You don’t trade 6ft 5 240 with hands like his , plus his hockey sense is off the charts … Guys that could be moved in a hockey trade .. Sillinger, Chinakov, Jenner…

As much as I would prefer to deal Jenner I think his value is at an all time low, ditto Chinakov. That being said I think LDBB may have truly made Sillinger moveable for a different upgrade in a true hockey trade that upgrades our back end in a significant way.

 

[koteka]

Voronkov has become near untouchable .You don’t trade 6ft 5 240 with hands like his , plus his hockey sense is off the charts … Guys that could be moved in a hockey trade .. Sillinger, Chinakov, Jenner…

You don’t get to make 7 people untouchable and then trade your other pieces if you want a really good return. I totally get that people don’t want to move Werenski, Mateychuk, Fantilli, KJ, Lindstrom, Marchenko, and Voronkov and think LDDB makes Sillinger a guy we can move. But other teams are going to laugh at our proposals. “Hey, here is an injured Russian who has a really hard shot when he plays. We’ll add a guy that we don’t see as a top 3 center anymore, and maybe package that with Minnesota’s late first round pick. We’d love to have your 24 year old 2RD with potential to be a 1RD.”

The appeal to trading Voronkov is he is a unicorn and everyone can see his potential and he is still under team control, so he has really high value. He would return a really good player with a lot value. Now, the question is how good will Voronkov really be? Is he already close to maxed out, or does he still have plenty of room to get better? He and Josh Anderson are different style of players, but we can all agree that Anderson never reached his potential and we held on to him too long (and then Montreal overvalued him and paid him too much). Compare that to RyJo who we traded at the perfect time and got a great piece back (and then Nashville overvalued him and paid him too much).