Proposal: (CBJ/PHI) MacDonald for Clarkson

[LordNeverLose]

Forgive me, I thought we sent the fourth as well. Either way, I think you are splitting hairs. Would you prefer me to word it that we got extremely lucky that we were able to dump the contract on Arizona before Detroit did, and before Chicago had to pay to get rid of Bickell? Those were pretty expensive dumps, we just happened to do it the year before.

The point still stands - we didn't get ourselves out of the LTIR game to get back in it.

Neither Datsyuk or Bickell is LTIR eligible, so your point is completely incorrect.

 

[Tripod]

Forgive me, I thought we sent the fourth as well. Either way, I think you are splitting hairs. Would you prefer me to word it that we got extremely lucky that we were able to dump the contract on Arizona before Detroit did, and before Chicago had to pay to get rid of Bickell? Those were pretty expensive dumps, we just happened to do it the year before.

The point still stands - we didn't get ourselves out of the LTIR game to get back in it.

I agree that Philly will not trade AMac for a guy on LTIR. But I just felt I needed to point out that Philly did not pay to get rid of Pronger since you had said it 2 times. No big deal, just clarifying things.

Having AMac is certainly not ideal at that cap hit. But he produced good numbers in the games he did play last year. And it gives us a vet that we can move up and didn't to the AHL if needed without worrying about someone claiming him.

People on here think having Clarkson on LTIR is great. It's not. You are unable to bank cap space to use it at the deadline if you want to. For a playoff team that might look to add at the deadline, that handcuffs you.

Philly easily keeps AMac.

 

[Starat327]

Neither Datsyuk or Bickell is LTIR eligible, so your point is completely incorrect.

Neither of Carolina or Arizona are at the cap, so dead cap is dead cap. thanks for nit picking though.

 

[LordNeverLose]

Neither of Carolina or Arizona are at the cap, so dead cap is dead cap. thanks for nit picking though.

1. Arizona is certainly at the cap and in fact has the 3rd highest cap hit in the league
2. The fact that they can't go on LTIR means they have big negative value since their cap hit counts, whereas Pronger actually had positive value to Zona since he allowed them to reach the floor last season while only costing like 500k in real dollars.

 

[Starat327]

1. Arizona is certainly at the cap and in fact has the 3rd highest cap hit in the league
2. The fact that they can't go on LTIR means they have big negative value since their cap hit counts, whereas Pronger actually had positive value to Zona since he allowed them to reach the floor last season while only costing like 500k in real dollars.

1)Because they have Datsyuk sitting there, as dead cap, with no salary being paid (similar to your number 2). My name isnt John Chayka, but i'm willing to bet he doesn't make that trade if he is actually anticipating using the cap space.

2) Bolland is on LTIR, and it cost the Panthers Crouse to get rid of him. As already mentioned, Datsyuk was used to make the floor before other cap moves were made. Again, if Arizona had planned on actually spending to the cap, they don't make the move. I'm really unsure what it is that you are trying to get at, but i'm sure it makes sense in your own head, which is more than enough for me.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

You don't get cap relief for having a player on LTIR. It actually complicates things further.
For the Flyers, it's better to just send Amac down to the AHL and get the 925k relief.

Actually you do and it's better than that. When a player is on LTIR their cap hit counts, and the team gets an exemption in the amount the contract. From page 290 of the CBA

(iv) The replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for any Player(s) that replace(s) an unfit-to-play Player may be added to the Club's Averaged Club Salary until such time as the Club's Averaged Club Salary reaches the Upper Limit. A Club may then exceed the Upper Limit due to the addition of replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of Players who have replaced an unfit-to-play Player, provided, however, that when the unfitto-play Player is once again fit to play (including any period such Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another league), the Club shall be required to once again reduce its Averaged Club Salary to a level at or below the Upper Limit prior to the Player being able to rejoin the Club.


This means a player like Clarkson or Pronger's cap hit can be used to reach the cap floor, but if a team is at the cap ceiling a player on LTIR allows them to go over the cap max by the amount of the player's contract. Add to that Clarkson's contract is insured so the team get re-imbursed for paying him.

That's why the Flyers got a 4th for Pronger. Arizona got to reach the cap floor for little or no cost.

 

[Jray42]

Actually you do and it's better than that. When a player is on LTIR their cap hit counts, and the team gets an exemption in the amount the contract. From page 290 of the CBA

(iv) The replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for any Player(s) that replace(s) an unfit-to-play Player may be added to the Club's Averaged Club Salary until such time as the Club's Averaged Club Salary reaches the Upper Limit. A Club may then exceed the Upper Limit due to the addition of replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of Players who have replaced an unfit-to-play Player, provided, however, that when the unfitto-play Player is once again fit to play (including any period such Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another league), the Club shall be required to once again reduce its Averaged Club Salary to a level at or below the Upper Limit prior to the Player being able to rejoin the Club.


This means a player like Clarkson or Pronger's cap hit can be used to reach the cap floor, but if a team is at the cap ceiling a player on LTIR allows them to go over the cap max by the amount of the player's contract. Add to that Clarkson's contract is insured so the team get re-imbursed for paying him.

That's why the Flyers got a 4th for Pronger. Arizona got to reach the cap floor for little or no cost.

That doesn't apply to the off-season IIRC. We don't need that headache again, thanks.

 

[LordNeverLose]

1)Because they have Datsyuk sitting there, as dead cap, with no salary being paid (similar to your number 2). My name isnt John Chayka, but i'm willing to bet he doesn't make that trade if he is actually anticipating using the cap space.

2) Bolland is on LTIR, and it cost the Panthers Crouse to get rid of him. As already mentioned, Datsyuk was used to make the floor before other cap moves were made. Again, if Arizona had planned on actually spending to the cap, they don't make the move. I'm really unsure what it is that you are trying to get at, but i'm sure it makes sense in your own head, which is more than enough for me.

My point is that Clarkson is worth more than MacD. Or at least he has less negative value.

 

[Tripod]

My point is that Clarkson is worth more than MacD. Or at least he has less negative value.

Except he doesn't.

 

[Starat327]

My point is that Clarkson is worth more than MacD. Or at least he has less negative value.

So you don't actually have a point then, since the above isn't even close to being true. One of them is a serviceable, albeit overpaid, NHL player. The other isn't even physically able to play in the NHL, and if he was, probably would be continuing to sit in the press box.

MacDonald, if he continues his play of the last 30-40 games, may actually draw himself into the conversation to be selected in the expansion. Laughton looks underwhelming so far in his admittedly brief stint, and a new team will a)need to make the cap floor and b) need some veterans instead of just scalping every team's young players, which is what everyone seems to think will happen.

Even if you wanted to assume that the two are equally skilled (they aren't), MacDonald has the benefit of A)not needing to be protected, and b) his contract can actually be bought out. Clarkson's can't. So while its nice to think that his LTIR eligibility (however long it lasts) is a bonus, keep in mind there is no LTIR in the offseason, and speaking from experience, having a dead contract on your hand can really handcuff you when it comes to trying to make off-season moves.

 

[Viqsi]

My point is that Clarkson is worth more than MacD. Or at least he has less negative value.

Not really.

To get why it's dubious for the Flyers, you have to basically be more familiar with the nuance and mechanics of how LTIR works. It's not actually the automatic get-out-of-jail-free card folks assume - CapFriendly has a useful description of how it works. There's tremendous benefits that can be realized, but making that happen requires some contract management shenanigans that can be occasionally problematic because when you put the guy on LTIR and under what circumstances matters (and it gets especially convoluted around that period going from the offseason to the start of the season - see, for example, how we kept Dubois up and "sent down" Wennberg on roster finalization day then swapped 'em before our first game). Philly fans (and presumably the Flyers themselves), having been there before with Pronger, not unreasonably do not want to go back to that if they can help it.

As for us... well, frankly, we want the space provided by said LTIR shenanigans, and we don't feel like we have any real use for MacDonald (or can get a veteran mentor at a much more reasonable cap hit if necessary). So neither side is eager to give this a try.

Does that help?

 

[Vikke]

Actually you do and it's better than that. When a player is on LTIR their cap hit counts, and the team gets an exemption in the amount the contract. From page 290 of the CBA

(iv) The replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for any Player(s) that replace(s) an unfit-to-play Player may be added to the Club's Averaged Club Salary until such time as the Club's Averaged Club Salary reaches the Upper Limit. A Club may then exceed the Upper Limit due to the addition of replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of Players who have replaced an unfit-to-play Player, provided, however, that when the unfitto-play Player is once again fit to play (including any period such Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another league), the Club shall be required to once again reduce its Averaged Club Salary to a level at or below the Upper Limit prior to the Player being able to rejoin the Club.


This means a player like Clarkson or Pronger's cap hit can be used to reach the cap floor, but if a team is at the cap ceiling a player on LTIR allows them to go over the cap max by the amount of the player's contract. Add to that Clarkson's contract is insured so the team get re-imbursed for paying him.

That's why the Flyers got a 4th for Pronger. Arizona got to reach the cap floor for little or no cost.

Yeah, and if you DO use the LTIR and exceed the salary cap, you can't accumulate cap space during the season, which makes it next to impossible to make a trade deadline acquisition. Not to mention the hassle during the off-season.