Player Discussion Carey Price - Moving Home Edition

[Lafleurs Guy]

I have not seen a goalie that is considered one of the all time greats not go through stretches of inconsistency in their careers, whether it's bad stretches in a season or a particularly bad series.

When it comes to Patrick Roy, I don't think there's another goalie I'd want in net if it was game 7 overtime with the cup on the line (except if Neely was on the other side :p). From my viewing (going back to early 90s), it's between Roy and hasek.

I don’t see how Roy has a case over Hasek.

And there are others who I think have a good case against Roy. Roy’s a great goalie but he’s overrated.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I'm sorry you grew up with those guys as your heroes and can't admit that hockey, moreso than any other sport, has evolved since the 80's. This isn't golf where you can pop a great golfer into any era so long as you give them the golf clubs of the time. Nor is it football where a great QB can fit in on any team. Nor is it soccer where there is no equipment to influence the game, and it has already had development programs for centuries.

Rule changes, equipment changes, and professional analysis and training have provided hockey players with a lot more science-based improvements that have absolutely created a gap in skill between older generations and the current. It is not a gap that should widen over the next few decades, as they're already pretty much at the pinnacle of modern skate and stick developments (or at least companies seem to be innovating a lot less since the invention of composite sticks), so it will be much easier to compare skills between the post-lockout generation to the next 20-30 years.

Half of hockey players in the 80's didn't even work out, how would you expect them to compete against modern NHLers? Nutrition and fitness alone in the past 30 years has evolved to a point where current young people who work out and eat using modern methods are considerably stronger than their parents or grandparents generations. Skating as a skill wasn't even mandatory in the NHL back then. Guys who are considered slow in 2023 would be in the upper half of the league in 1983. I implore you to go back and watch a game from the 80's with modern eyes and tell me a guy like McDavid wouldn't put up a 400 point season or Price wouldn't get 25-30 shutouts a year.

Your username is very appropriate.

It's like you said, Roy was a trendsetter but he is not even a top 50 butterfly goalie of all time in terms of skill. He popularized it and everyone worked upon what he built. That doesn't mean Roy isn't a hall of famer or one of the greatest of all time, it just means that Roy had to build something without direction, it's not possible to perfect something the first time. You're basically arguing that a 1920's Ford Model A Deluxe Roadster could beat a $500 dollar 2011 beater in a race, which simply would never happen. Now send a 2023 F1 racecar into the past and tell me that it wouldn't win every single race. That's Carey Price in the 80's.

You don’t know what you’re talking about at all and you prove it which each post. This discussion isn’t worth continuing. Hockey hasn’t evolved at the rate you think it has. No sports, no humans do.

For every hour spent in a gym now is time away from the rink. The training is different. Equipment changes have nothing to do with the players skill set, but is responsible for 95% of the improvements seen. For someone as mouthy as you are you would think you would know what you are talking about, but you don’t.

You disparage players from the 80’s and have zero clue what you are talking about.

 

[BLONG7]

You don’t know what you’re talking about at all and you prove it which each post. This discussion isn’t worth continuing. Hockey hasn’t evolved at the rate you think it has. No sports, no humans do.

For every hour spent in a gym now is time away from the rink. The training is different. Equipment changes have nothing to do with the players skill set, but is responsible for 95% of the improvements seen. For someone as mouthy as you are you would think you would know what you are talking about, but you don’t.

You disparage players from the 80’s and have zero clue what you are talking about.

Food for thought..............#99 says players now are way better, way bigger, and way faster then when he played....training, nutrition, equipment whatever the reasons....
Back in the day, some of those greats smoked in between periods.....drank beer and ate burgers after the games....
It's an argument with a very slippery slope because it feels as though someone is disrespecting some of the best players in the game, but when The Best says it, well then to me it has some merit.

Again, food for thought....

 

[Ezpz]

You don’t know what you’re talking about at all and you prove it which each post. This discussion isn’t worth continuing. Hockey hasn’t evolved at the rate you think it has. No sports, no humans do.

For every hour spent in a gym now is time away from the rink. The training is different. Equipment changes have nothing to do with the players skill set, but is responsible for 95% of the improvements seen. For someone as mouthy as you are you would think you would know what you are talking about, but you don’t.

You disparage players from the 80’s and have zero clue what you are talking about.

I'm sorry you are incapable of integrating new information into your views. Starting from the late 80's, 90's and 00's kids have been trained from 3-4 years old to be professional hockey players (as well as many other niche sports). Development and skills camps every winter and summer, skating coaches, travel leagues, etc. There were no development teams for guys growing up in the 60's and 70's. If you think even a single third liner from the 80's could make the NHL now I don't know what to say.

The Evolution of Hockey: How the NHL Has Grown Over the Years

There were—and are—many great NHL players who stand out above all. The heroes of my childhood have come and past and left us with many memorable moments...

bleacherreport.com

This article was written 15 years ago and already had noticed the huge gap in play between the 80's and 00's.


USA hockey has standardized development progression now, in the past the only way to really grow into an NHL player and gain inside knowledge was to know or go to an NHL/ex player who ran camps. Hockey drills were not universal between different leagues and parts of Canada even in the early 90's.

https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/0153/8089/Skill_Progressions_for_Youth_Hockey.pdf

Hockey Canada Skill Development | Checking

Learn how properly teaching the skill of checking through progression can create quality scoring opportunities, help a team regain control of the puck and enhance a player's enjoyment of hockey.

www.hockeycanada.ca

Canada similarly has developed programs that didn't exist when guys who played in the 80's were growing up. They didn't have the same skills development, and the fact that the fastest skaters of the time would be dealing with many subpar skaters meant those fast guys didn't need to push themselves to get better.

The irony is in the Olympics modern athletes absolutely gap and destroy any athlete from the 80's in every single metric of nearly every single event, but you somehow think hockey players are immune. We're talking the 15th place finish in any Olympic event now would medal in the 80's. In speed skating, nearly every single world record is from the past 10 years.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Food for thought..............#99 says players now are way better, way bigger, and way faster then when he played....training, nutrition, equipment whatever the reasons....
Back in the day, some of those greats smoked in between periods.....drank beer and ate burgers after the games....
It's an argument with a very slippery slope because it feels as though someone is disrespecting some of the best players in the game, but when The Best says it, well then to me it has some merit.

Again, food for thought....

Wayne has always been extremely humble. He’s been quoted many times saying others are the greatest ever. This means nothing. An almost dead, broken back wayne was competing with Prime Jagr who was competing in this league at almost 50. You are wrong. It’s ok to say so.

The UFC, one of the most niche sports there is, more of the same. Jones been fighting for 15 years, he’s nearing 40 and no one can beat him. It doesn’t matter about the advances in training or nutrition. These elite athletes all have/had training plans and good diets comparative to the average person and they adjust with the times. You could drop Wayne in the league today and he would never lose a scoring title to Kucherov or Draisatl or Sedin etc. Joe Sakic was still a stud in 2001 as he was in 2007 etc and he was never competitive or challenging a past his prime Gretzky. Every single star in this league has proven this wrong. All of them, saying Paul Byron would be the equivalent of Pavel Bure isn’t a discussion worth having. Quite frankly, it’s f***ing stupid.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I'm sorry you are incapable of integrating new information into your views. Starting from the late 80's, 90's and 00's kids have been trained from 3-4 years old to be professional hockey players (as well as many other niche sports). Development and skills camps every winter and summer, skating coaches, travel leagues, etc. There were no development teams for guys growing up in the 60's and 70's. If you think even a single third liner from the 80's could make the NHL now I don't know what to say.

The Evolution of Hockey: How the NHL Has Grown Over the Years

There were—and are—many great NHL players who stand out above all. The heroes of my childhood have come and past and left us with many memorable moments...

bleacherreport.com

This article was written 15 years ago and already had noticed the huge gap in play between the 80's and 00's.


USA hockey has standardized development progression now, in the past the only way to really grow into an NHL player and gain inside knowledge was to know or go to an NHL/ex player who ran camps. Hockey drills were not universal between different leagues and parts of Canada even in the early 90's.

https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/0153/8089/Skill_Progressions_for_Youth_Hockey.pdf

Hockey Canada Skill Development | Checking

Learn how properly teaching the skill of checking through progression can create quality scoring opportunities, help a team regain control of the puck and enhance a player's enjoyment of hockey.

www.hockeycanada.ca

Canada similarly has developed programs that didn't exist when guys who played in the 80's were growing up. They didn't have the same skills development, and the fact that the fastest skaters of the time would be dealing with many subpar skaters meant those fast guys didn't need to push themselves to get better.

The irony is in the Olympics modern athletes absolutely gap and destroy any athlete from the 80's in every single metric of nearly every single event, but you somehow think hockey players are immune. We're talking the 15th place finish in any Olympic event now would medal in the 80's. In speed skating, nearly every single world record is from the past 10 years.

Once again you don’t know what you are talking about, we have real life players whose careers did span multiple decades as living proof. Hundreds of them, in fact.

Advances in equipment are for more responsible for gains than training and diet in every sport. Humans don’t evolve that fast. There’s very little difference between elite hockey players in the 80’s, 90’s and 00’s. This is a fact as witnessed by those elite players whose careers spanned across those decades. You can’t drop McDavid back in the 80’s with the equipment he’s wearing now and say he would those players away. Give him a pair of skates from 1982, see how fast he is.

Same goes with Olympic athletes. They aren’t much faster than their counterparts from 50 years ago and almost all of it can be attributed to advances in technology.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Wayne has always been extremely humble. He’s been quoted many times saying others are the greatest ever. This means nothing. An almost dead, broken back wayne was competing with Prime Jagr who was competing in this league at almost 50. You are wrong. It’s ok to say so.

The UFC, one of the most niche sports there is, more of the same. Jones been fighting for 15 years, he’s nearing 40 and no one can beat him. It doesn’t matter about the advances in training or nutrition. These elite athletes all have/had training plans and good diets comparative to the average person and they adjust with the times. You could drop Wayne in the league today and he would never lose a scoring title to Kucherov or Draisatl or Sedin etc. Joe Sakic was still a stud in 2001 as he was in 2007 etc and he was never competitive or challenging a past his prime Gretzky. Every single star in this league has proven this wrong. All of them, saying Paul Byron would be the equivalent of Pavel Bure isn’t a discussion worth having. Quite frankly, it’s f***ing stupid.

On average the play is much faster than it was. Watch a game from the 80s and it’s a hell of a lot slower. Some of that is due to rules and some due to regimens. On average the athletes are better, no doubt about it.

That being said, it doesn’t mean that exceptional athletes wouldn’t thrive in today’s game. Moreover if we ‘transported’ say… Roy to today, he’d have access to better training, knowledge, nutrition etc….

I’ve argued before (and believe) that Mario Lemieux would actually be MORE dominant today. The obstruction on him was insane. Guys would climb all over him because it was the only way to stop him. That would never happen today and I think he’d be absolutely lethal.

But the average player is much better today than in the past. Fitness evolution and the game’s emphasis on skill assures us of that.

None of this really changes my opinion on Roy vs Price though. I just think Price was the better goalie. At his best he was arguably the best player in the league. Being able to take those garbage teams and make them first place clubs is insane. And his consistency in the playoffs was outstanding as well. I would take him over Roy if I had my choice of goalies to build with.

Again though he does NOT have Roy’s resume. And with the injuries and teams he played on, a lot is hypothetical with him.

As I said, is coming in behind Roy something to be ashamed about? Absolutely not. He’s one of the best ever.

 

[Habs]

Bottom line - Will his rookie card be worth more or less in 10 more years?

 

[BLONG7]

Wayne has always been extremely humble. He’s been quoted many times saying others are the greatest ever. This means nothing. An almost dead, broken back wayne was competing with Prime Jagr who was competing in this league at almost 50. You are wrong. It’s ok to say so.

The UFC, one of the most niche sports there is, more of the same. Jones been fighting for 15 years, he’s nearing 40 and no one can beat him. It doesn’t matter about the advances in training or nutrition. These elite athletes all have/had training plans and good diets comparative to the average person and they adjust with the times. You could drop Wayne in the league today and he would never lose a scoring title to Kucherov or Draisatl or Sedin etc. Joe Sakic was still a stud in 2001 as he was in 2007 etc and he was never competitive or challenging a past his prime Gretzky. Every single star in this league has proven this wrong. All of them, saying Paul Byron would be the equivalent of Pavel Bure isn’t a discussion worth having. Quite frankly, it’s f***ing stupid.

Crack me up man..........you have an opinion and so does everyone else.
Peoples opinions are NOT wrong...............grow up.
Sorry everyone has hurt your feelings, but just grow up.

 

[Ezpz]

Once again you don’t know what you are talking about, we have real life players whose careers did span multiple decades as living proof. Hundreds of them, in fact.

Advances in equipment are for more responsible for gains than training and diet in every sport. Humans don’t evolve that fast. There’s very little difference between elite hockey players in the 80’s, 90’s and 00’s. This is a fact as witnessed by those elite players whose careers spanned across those decades. You can’t drop McDavid back in the 80’s with the equipment he’s wearing now and say he would those players away. Give him a pair of skates from 1982, see how fast he is.

Same goes with Olympic athletes. They aren’t much faster than their counterparts from 50 years ago and almost all of it can be attributed to advances in technology.

I never said they wouldn't have their current equipment. I'm saying you literally take McDavid as he's about to hit the ice, send him onto a game in the 80's, and he would set the points record in a game at least four or five times per season. Likewise, from a technical perspective there would not be the variety of shot selections to deal with for Carey Price that he faced in modern times. He would get worse as the season went on because he would never get tested except by greats on the PP. He would literally be a better version of Hasek in the 90's (who managed to mentally destroy every great you can name including Lemieux, Gretzky, etc, as well as take an average roster to a Gold medal).

Likewise, I think if you give Ray Bourque modern equipment and transport him to now, he would still be a top 4 dman, but would have a difficult adjustment period dealing with the speed changes. Mentally, the greats of yesterday are still great today, and the NHL was not without people who were fitness freaks in their day. Look at Chelios or Jagr. Wayne Gretzky would thrive in any era on a PP. Mario Lemieux would still be the best player in the league.

At the same time a guy like JJ Daigneault would be in Laval or Trois-Rivieres in modern times. He already struggled to adapt to the 90's rule changes. A guy like Marc Bergevin was able to play that many years because there wasn't enough talent in hockey to displace him as a 7th D and the locker room loved him. Nobody gets nepo-jobs on rosters anymore, only within organizations. I don't know why that is hard to admit. A guy like Kovacevic would be a thousand game top 4 dman in the 80's.

I won't even get into how steroids have improved since the 80's, which is the main reason for gaps in every other sport. I know it's libel, but let's not pretend every single pro athlete doesn't take them.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Crack me up man..........you have an opinion and so does everyone else.
Peoples opinions are NOT wrong...............grow up.
Sorry everyone has hurt your feelings, but just grow up.

These are not opinions. No one has hurt my feelings lol, I don’t even know you. I just don’t think you know what you are talking about. So save your attempts at deflection for someone else.

If you can debate the topic then what are you doing? I gave examples of why claiming 80’s players couldn’t make it today is categorically false, you reply with hurt feelings and insults.

You’re probably in your twenties and telling me to grow up haha. I love this place.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Bottom line - Will his rookie card be worth more or less in 10 more years?

HOFer.

More.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I never said they wouldn't have their current equipment. I'm saying you literally take McDavid as he's about to hit the ice, send him onto a game in the 80's, and he would set the points record in a game at least four or five times per season. Likewise, from a technical perspective there would not be the variety of shot selections to deal with for Carey Price that he faced in modern times. He would get worse as the season went on because he would never get tested except by greats on the PP. He would literally be a better version of Hasek in the 90's (who managed to mentally destroy every great you can name including Lemieux, Gretzky, etc, as well as take an average roster to a Gold medal).

Likewise, I think if you give Ray Bourque modern equipment and transport him to now, he would still be a top 4 dman, but would have a difficult adjustment period dealing with the speed changes. Mentally, the greats of yesterday are still great today, and the NHL was not without people who were fitness freaks in their day. Look at Chelios or Jagr. Wayne Gretzky would thrive in any era on a PP. Mario Lemieux would still be the best player in the league.

At the same time a guy like JJ Daigneault would be in Laval or Trois-Rivieres in modern times. He already struggled to adapt to the 90's rule changes. A guy like Marc Bergevin was able to play that many years because there wasn't enough talent in hockey to displace him as a 7th D and the locker room loved him. Nobody gets nepo-jobs on rosters anymore, only within organizations. I don't know why that is hard to admit. A guy like Kovacevic would be a thousand game top 4 dman in the 80's.

I won't even get into how steroids have improved since the 80's, which is the main reason for gaps in every other sport. I know it's libel, but let's not pretend every single pro athlete doesn't take them.

Wayne Gretzky was the greatest even strength player ever. It was Mario who benefitted most often from the PP. You don’t seem to know the basics, so I don’t know why I’m continuing this discussion.

 

[DAChampion]

Wayne Gretzky was the greatest even strength player ever. It was Mario who benefitted most often from the PP. You don’t seem to know the basics, so I don’t know why I’m continuing this discussion.

How can you confidently say that McDavid wouldn't score 200 points on the 1980s Oilers?

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Bottom line - Will his rookie card be worth more or less in 10 more years?

More, I have it btw lol.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

How can you confidently say that McDavid wouldn't score 200 points on the 1980s Oilers?

Separation over his peers. This was the first year he’s really been able to do it. Scoring is up now as well compared to the dead puck era and you don’t just get to drop 2023 McDavid into the 80’s. He would be using the same shit as everyone else.

I can confidentially say that Mario Lemieux was a more offensively gifted player. Better shot, hands, vision, play making and accuracy. McDavid is faster, that’s about it. How many 200 point seasons did Lemieux have? We talk like this was a routine thing and only happened because of the era and team. Yet, only one guy did it. We often hear about the inferior talent he was up against and how it wasn’t a fully integrated league with Europe etc, except there wasn’t a European on earth who would be competing with Wayne either. He lead international tournaments with his assists alone. No one could compete with him in his prime, no one. Ppl have been competitive against McDavid, his own teammate having beat him before.

Can you imagine Gretzky losing scoring titles to Messier or Kurri?

 

[BLONG7]

These are not opinions. No one has hurt my feelings lol, I don’t even know you. I just don’t think you know what you are talking about. So save your attempts at deflection for someone else.

If you can debate the topic then what are you doing? I gave examples of why claiming 80’s players couldn’t make it today is categorically false, you reply with hurt feelings and insults.

You’re probably in your twenties and telling me to grow up haha. I love this place.

60 yrs old bud....................do not tell people they are wrong....everything on here is opinions.
You think Roy is amazing with your selective memories.............we all know different.
You think the guys back in the day were amazing.............and some of us feel differently about that....

Cheers....

 

[BehindTheTimes]

60 yrs old bud....................do not tell people they are wrong....everything on here is opinions.
You think Roy is amazing with your selective memories.............we all know different.
You think the guys back in the day were amazing.............and some of us feel differently about that....

Cheers....

You all know differently. Lol, sure you do. He’s the number 1 ranked all time for a reason. Carey will never have that distinction. He won’t be top 5 either. So yes, you’re wrong.

 

[BLONG7]

You all know differently. Lol, sure you do. He’s the number 1 ranked all time for a reason. Carey will never have that distinction. He won’t be top 5 either. So yes, you’re wrong.

I think if you look up their Save % numbers, Price has better reg season and playoffs....in both cases this is a very telling stat.............Price did it with no run support, and Roy did it with HOF players in front of him.

And your a child....LOL Yup....

 

[Habs]

HOFer.

More.

I'm not sure he's a HOF'er , do you really think? Regardless I have a psa 10 ....

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I think if you look up their Save % numbers, Price has better reg season and playoffs....in both cases this is a very telling stat.............Price did it with no run support, and Roy did it with HOF players in front of him.

And your a child....LOL Yup....

You really have nothing of value to add to the conversation. Why would anyone compare SV % between goalies in the 80’s with goalies in 2000’s.

How many seasons did Price lead the league in SV%, how about Roy?

I’m a child and you can’t spell. Go figure. Strong argument like the rest you have presented.

Opinions are fine, but they should be supported with some facts. He looks good while stopping the puck isn’t an argument. Food and training has changed isnt one either because you would have to assume Roy and other greats wouldn’t change with it when we already have proof that they do.

I'm not sure he's a HOF'er , do you really think? Regardless I have a psa 10 ....

PSA 10 the most important fact in this debate.

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

No that post was spot on.

You said Roy’s numbers as a Hab weren’t good, which means you don’t know what you are talking about. They were awesome without adjusted save %.

Price had 3-4 great years and a bunch of meh ones. 2 years where he was the best in the world. Roy’s time even as a hab was greater, if you remove Roy’s career with Colorado he’s still way ahead of Carey who collected all his personal hardware in one season. It’s not even close.

If Price played in a Lemieux/Gretzky/Messier era he’d also be with without a hart and Lindsay.

First of all, Price was in the greatest goalie generation of all time. Roy during his time with the Habs was in one of the worst modern goalie generations of all time. My point is Carey would be the greatest Habs goalie with a cup because 1. He didn't play on the greatest teams of all time like Dryden (although 71 was an amazing run) and 2 he holds all of the personal records as a Habs goalie. So 1 more cup by Roy doesn't beat every known record in Habs history.

Also Gretzkys era was so high scoring because of a few factors, a major one being that the goalies sucked. It's a terrible argument that's been debunked tons of times unless you're willing to admit that the players in the 80s were heads and shoulders better than the players that followed which is less believable than goaltending as a science improved over time.

Also toys Habs career GAA is 2.81 which is more of a team stat but his sv % is .903 while Prices was .914 while being injured for the last third of his career which saw a decline in his performance. He also played on worse teams than Roy. For example the year he won his Hart and got the team to 1st in the division/2nd in the conference, the Habs were dead last in scoring amongst playoff teams. That's just an example of the support price had during his career.

Also yes that post was an L. There are plenty of replies calling it out as much

 

[Team_Spirit]

Comparing players for different era is complex because of the rules, tech and trends.

The synergy stick came out 20 years ago and it was revolutionary MSL won the scoring title with it. Give it to Bedard or Hughes and they will say it's a bad stick.

Meanwhile goalies gear peaked and got nerfed. Mostly due to the Michelin man around 05 (JS Guguere)

 

[BehindTheTimes]

First of all, Price was in the greatest goalie generation of all time. Roy during his time with the Habs was in one of the worst modern goalie generations of all time. My point is Carey would be the greatest Habs goalie with a cup because 1. He didn't play on the greatest teams of all time like Dryden (although 71 was an amazing run) and 2 he holds all of the personal records as a Habs goalie. So 1 more cup by Roy doesn't beat every known record in Habs history.

Also Gretzkys era was so high scoring because of a few factors, a major one being that the goalies sucked. It's a terrible argument that's been debunked tons of times unless you're willing to admit that the players in the 80s were heads and shoulders better than the players that followed which is less believable than goaltending as a science improved over time.

Also toys Habs career GAA is 2.81 which is more of a team stat but his sv % is .903 while Prices was .914 while being injured for the last third of his career which saw a decline in his performance. He also played on worse teams than Roy. For example the year he won his Hart and got the team to 1st in the division/2nd in the conference, the Habs were dead last in scoring amongst playoff teams. That's just an example of the support price had during his career.

Also yes that post was an L. There are plenty of replies calling it out as much

Two players from the 80’s were greater than everyone else, yes. Lemieux/Gretzky. Not all of them, this is a strawman. Only two dominated the opposition, both of them, it matches the eye test, it matches their careers where they continued well beyond the 80’s as the best in the world.

Goaltending improved largely because of the equipment and the innovation by Roy. However, elite goalies of the 80’s proved they could play in any era, Roy included, so no his dominance was not only because it was a weak era for goaltending it was because he, himself was an elite goaltender.

You can’t compare save% between the 80’s and 00’s and ascribe anything meaningful to it. The fact that Roy is only .011 behind Price is remarkable.

 

[Habs]

You really have nothing of value to add to the conversation. Why would anyone compare SV % between goalies in the 80’s with goalies in 2000’s.

How many seasons did Price lead the league in SV%, how about Roy?

I’m a child and you can’t spell. Go figure. Strong argument like the rest you have presented.

Opinions are fine, but they should be supported with some facts. He looks good while stopping the puck isn’t an argument. Food and training has changed isnt one either because you would have to assume Roy and other greats wouldn’t change with it when we already have proof that they do.


PSA 10 the most important fact in this debate.

agreed, I have a Bob Gainey SGC 9.5 which I really cherish, I think its the only one graded that high that I've still seen. Love collecting old cards now, like fine wine!