Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines/etc) | 2023-24 Regular Season Edition

[HTFN]

BMac became the GM in 2014. Since then they have won 2 presidents trophies, 1 Cup and 7 total playoff series. They failed to qualify for the playoffs only once, last year.

[snip]

Bmac is also the 4th longest tenured GM with the same team.

Yeah but we're not shiny and fun like the Avalanche and their... let me check my notes... 28 year old 1st overall MVP candidate and 25 year old 4th overall Norris winner. That's clearly bad management, although I'm struggling to remember what the Avs were doing around 2017 to be picking so low... it's probably in my notes....

Oh, going 22-56-4. I thought all these teams were putting up a decade's work of worth that put GMBM to shame, but the Avalanche sure sucked pretty hard.

I guess we can still very fairly conclude that this team should be making the type of moves the Avalanche would make or they're being run poorly. Let's be honest, when you're looking to trade 1st round picks and Bowen Byram-level prospects as the Capitals definitely should be it really makes no difference if your core is in its mid 20's or late 30's. It's exactly as smart for all teams each and every time.

 

[HTFN]

Even if its someone terrible like Dim Jim Benning, you could say we lose a guy who is able to add a player like Boeser, Demko, Pettersson, Hughes or JT Miller seemingly every other year despite being terrible at almost everything else. Here we lose... a guy whose primary contribution was rounding out rosters with firmly locked in star cores with Lars Ellers and Anthony Manthas and Trevor Van Riemsdyks of the world, with the bright spot of getting an Oshie level forward or a Niskanen level D once a decade?

"You're telling me meth is this fun, amazing high with absolutely terrible downsides and I'm supposed to just be happy with my functional daily cup of coffee? Can you not see how much fun the high points of meth are despite often being stuck between long stretches of having no hope, like a passenger in a slow-motion car crash?"

Also Boeser=Oshie unless this becomes his new norm (also he was drafted by the Canucks so...), both are good for about 45-60 points in a season and Oshie brought way more as a player, Pettersson and Hughes were 5th and 7th overall picks respectively, and Demko's a good goaltender but not somebody you put on that list like he's some perennial award candidate or something. All these guys you're happy to "add" every year outside of Miller are Vancouver draft picks mostly earned the hard way by being very bad.

Then for every Pettersson and Hughes, you've got a Jake Virtanen (7th overall), Olli Juolevi (5th Overall), Vasili Podkolzin (10th Overall)... and then this dingdong didn't even draft until the 3rd round in 2020 because of Miller, leaving Vancouver just one of three teams (Pittsburgh, Toronto) without a single game played from the draft class. Two win-now teams and the Canucks, who would go on to be the worst team in Canada during the pandemic season.

But yeah, ask the fans, I'm sure the fleeting moments of hype are worth it. You're basically just mad that we aren't in the core building phase right this very moment with more road ahead of us than behind us, because if I'm GM in Vancouver right now I'm not trying to add 2-3 additional all-star core parts, I'm trying to make the right moves to take my team to the next level. GMBM already had the all-stars and did that, which is why they won instead of going Full Toronto.

Pining for Jim f***ing Benning... stop it.

 

[CapsSkins]

We climbed the mountaintop and won the cup in 2018. The next ~5 years got derailed by the COVID-induced flat-cap. We got stuck triaging bad contracts and cap hits as high-money players declined either due to age (Backstrom/Oshie) or Give-A-f*** (Kuzy). Hank's heart problem and Sammy/Vitek's failures was its own plot-twist.

In any case... we now have some decent younger pieces, cap space, and a rising salary cap. We have a bunch of draft picks these next few years.

It will absolutely be fair to judge BMac by how he navigates the next 5 years and transitions to a post-Ovie Era. By 2030 we ought to be a top contender and if we're not, then BMac ought to be held accountable.

 

[Kalopsia]

"You're telling me meth is this fun, amazing high with absolutely terrible downsides and I'm supposed to just be happy with my functional daily cup of coffee? Can you not see how much fun the high points of meth are despite often being stuck between long stretches of having no hope, like a passenger in a slow-motion car crash?"

Also Boeser=Oshie unless this becomes his new norm (also he was drafted by the Canucks so...), both are good for about 45-60 points in a season and Oshie brought way more as a player, Pettersson and Hughes were 5th and 7th overall picks respectively, and Demko's a good goaltender but not somebody you put on that list like he's some perennial award candidate or something. All these guys you're happy to "add" every year outside of Miller are Vancouver draft picks mostly earned the hard way by being very bad.

Then for every Pettersson and Hughes, you've got a Jake Virtanen (7th overall), Olli Juolevi (5th Overall), Vasili Podkolzin (10th Overall)... and then this dingdong didn't even draft until the 3rd round in 2020 because of Miller, leaving Vancouver just one of three teams (Pittsburgh, Toronto) without a single game played from the draft class. Two win-now teams and the Canucks, who would go on to be the worst team in Canada during the pandemic season.

But yeah, ask the fans, I'm sure the fleeting moments of hype are worth it. You're basically just mad that we aren't in the core building phase right this very moment with more road ahead of us than behind us, because if I'm GM in Vancouver right now I'm not trying to add 2-3 additional all-star core parts, I'm trying to make the right moves to take my team to the next level. GMBM already had the all-stars and did that, which is why they won instead of going Full Toronto.

Pining for Jim f***ing Benning... stop it.

In retrospect, I think the Mantha trade was MacLellan trying to find his JT Miller. The similarities are kind of bizarre.

Former 1st round pick JT Miller was traded to Vancouver before his age 26 season for a package centered around a 1st round pick that would end up being the 20th overall. He set a career high of 23 goals set during his age 24 season. Miller was a 0.68 ppg player across the two seasons before his trade and a 0.61 ppg player for his career, but had criticisms about inconsistent effort.

Former 1st round pick Anthony Mantha was traded to Washington during his age 26 season for a package centered around a 1st round pick that would end up being the 23rd overall. He had a career high of 25 goals set during his age 24 season. Mantha was a 0.69 ppg player across the season and a half before his trade and a 0.64 ppg player for his career, but had criticisms about inconsistent effort.

They also both have 6 letter last names starting with M, but that's probably just a coincidence.

 

[Roshi]

How about Hronek?

We dont really have replacement in the system for Carlson when he retires in 2 years, or gets injured before. Canucks seemingly might be on the outs.

Necas also looks more as a target than Ehlers or Marner, based on the profile BM is speaking about. A little unsure about him, a bit like Burakovsky, no? Not sure id want to caugh up a 1st+ for him.

From free agency this is unlikely not the year we get our hands on the big fishes like Reinhart or Guentzel, but theres some interesting middle six options. Maybe Bertuzzi fits. Maybe journeyman Domi. But i like Duclair.

With these additions, and not subtracting a lot, i think we have a decent chance to make it to playoffs. And depending on how our young guys develope, we could even challenge some teams there.

Ovie-Lapierre-Wilson
"Necas"-Strome-"Bertuzzi"
Milano-CMM-Protas
Beck-Dowd-Oshie
+ Miro , Scoreboss, Sutter etc.

Fever-JC
Sandin-"Hronek"
AA-Jensen/TvR (one would have to go)
Iorio-Bear
+ McIlrath

Lindgren
Kuemper

Next year you get more cap to make another big signing for top6 (Oshie,Kuzys 50,MaxPacs bonus off the books), and add Leonard and Miro as full timers and suddenly its gelling up pretty nice.

 

[g00n]

I. Want. To. Win.

I don’t care how. I don’t care if it’s via elite drafting. I don’t care if it’s trading all our “prospects” for proven players. I don’t care if it’s both. Frankly who gives a crap how it’s done? There’s always ways to pivot. GMBM hasn’t drafted well. He hasn’t acquired elite talent. The team has gotten worse every year since the cup. They didn’t belong in the playoffs this year. Evident by their atrocious goals against and getting swept. It would have benefited them more for not getting in pick wise.

I looked up your posting history because I haven't seen a good old fashioned "BUT IT'S HIS JERB" argument like this in years.

Your mantra of "I want to win and I don't care how" leads to bad decisions, and often very little reflection on those decisions later.

In fact, though you don't seem to give credit now (sorry I haven't read every wall of text you posted so far) you were absolutely in love with Vrana for Mantha: Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2021 Off-Season Pt. 2

Here you defend the Chara deal and criticize Pens asset management by comparison: Confirmed Signing with Link: - [WSH] Capitals sign Zdeno Chara (1 year, $795k + $730k in Performance Bonuses)

This is one of several posts where you seem to acknowledge the cap situation and how it confined GMBM's ability to acquire players: Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2020 Offseason Pt. 4

This is you defending GMBM for a signing that you acknowledge might have been due to the coach, and the unpredictability of the FA market: League News: - NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) - 2020 Offseason Edition - Vol. 10

Are you a big Lavi fan, by any chance?

Here you accuse someone else of being "childish" and acting like a "spoiled teenager" for wanting to make a big splash signing (Kane) that would "gut" the Caps roster: Proposal: - CHI-WSH

This post has you defending GMBM moves and noting every GM has a bad move "or 3": Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2020 Offseason Pt. 3

And maybe most importantly, here you are in 2020 saying GMBM is not on the hot seat and could miss the playoffs for the next 3 years and not worry about it: Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2020 Offseason Pt. 3

The only notable targets I could find from you over the last few years have been guys like Galchenyuk and Perry.

I don't mean to attack you personally, but you're calling everyone here "delusional" for disagreeing with you, and it seems like you have the ability to understand how these things all work but you don't WANT to right now.

You've previously argued with others that you come here to "vent frustration". So it seems that's just what you're doing, with a veneer of plausibility and rationlization that conflicts with many of your previous comments.

In general, "I don't care how" isn't a plan anyone is going to pay for. It's the kind of thing tyrants say when they're commanding minions to bring them the head of an enemy ,but it doesn't build sustainable sports franchises. And I think you know this.

 

[Todd Lazarchick]

We climbed the mountaintop and won the cup in 2018. The next ~5 years got derailed by the COVID-induced flat-cap. We got stuck triaging bad contracts and cap hits as high-money players declined either due to age (Backstrom/Oshie) or Give-A-f*** (Kuzy). Hank's heart problem and Sammy/Vitek's failures was its own plot-twist.

In any case... we now have some decent younger pieces, cap space, and a rising salary cap. We have a bunch of draft picks these next few years.

It will absolutely be fair to judge BMac by how he navigates the next 5 years and transitions to a post-Ovie Era. By 2030 we ought to be a top contender and if we're not, then BMac ought to be held accountable.

So let me understand this…he should be judged 12 seasons removed from a cup win!? TWELVE!? If we aren’t competitive again 12 years after winning a cup. Are you serious lol!?

 

[usiel]

In my opinion hind sight 20/20 on posts here on an opinion forum is ill taste paste a couple of years. Countless times my 'takes' were hilariously wrong 'takes' when things happened. A couple years past sure but lets agree to not go deep diving into years of posts.

 

[usiel]

I looked up your posting history because I haven't seen a good old fashioned "BUT IT'S HIS JERB" argument like this in years.

Your mantra of "I want to win and I don't care how" leads to bad decisions, and often very little reflection on those decisions later.

In fact, though you don't seem to give credit now (sorry I haven't read every wall of text you posted so far) you were absolutely in love with Vrana for Mantha: Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2021 Off-Season Pt. 2

Here you defend the Chara deal and criticize Pens asset management by comparison: Confirmed Signing with Link: - [WSH] Capitals sign Zdeno Chara (1 year, $795k + $730k in Performance Bonuses)

This is one of several posts where you seem to acknowledge the cap situation and how it confined GMBM's ability to acquire players: Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2020 Offseason Pt. 4

This is you defending GMBM for a signing that you acknowledge might have been due to the coach, and the unpredictability of the FA market: League News: - NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) - 2020 Offseason Edition - Vol. 10

Are you a big Lavi fan, by any chance?

Here you accuse someone else of being "childish" and acting like a "spoiled teenager" for wanting to make a big splash signing (Kane) that would "gut" the Caps roster: Proposal: - CHI-WSH

This post has you defending GMBM moves and noting every GM has a bad move "or 3": Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2020 Offseason Pt. 3

And maybe most importantly, here you are in 2020 saying GMBM is not on the hot seat and could miss the playoffs for the next 3 years and not worry about it: Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2020 Offseason Pt. 3

The only notable targets I could find from you over the last few years have been guys like Galchenyuk and Perry.

I don't mean to attack you personally, but you're calling everyone here "delusional" for disagreeing with you, and it seems like you have the ability to understand how these things all work but you don't WANT to right now.

You've previously argued with others that you come here to "vent frustration". So it seems that's just what you're doing, with a veneer of plausibility and rationlization that conflicts with many of your previous comments.

In general, "I don't care how" isn't a plan anyone is going to pay for. It's the kind of thing tyrants say when they're commanding minions to bring them the head of an enemy ,but it doesn't build sustainable sports franchises. And I think you know this.

Not a fan of the 'I gotcha' posts of years on by. My dirty laundry of hot takes will not look good...as appropriate for a joyful amateur fan.

 

[Todd Lazarchick]

I looked up your posting history because I haven't seen a good old fashioned "BUT IT'S HIS JERB" argument like this in years.

Your mantra of "I want to win and I don't care how" leads to bad decisions, and often very little reflection on those decisions later.

In fact, though you don't seem to give credit now (sorry I haven't read every wall of text you posted so far) you were absolutely in love with Vrana for Mantha: Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2021 Off-Season Pt. 2

Here you defend the Chara deal and criticize Pens asset management by comparison: Confirmed Signing with Link: - [WSH] Capitals sign Zdeno Chara (1 year, $795k + $730k in Performance Bonuses)

This is one of several posts where you seem to acknowledge the cap situation and how it confined GMBM's ability to acquire players: Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2020 Offseason Pt. 4

This is you defending GMBM for a signing that you acknowledge might have been due to the coach, and the unpredictability of the FA market: League News: - NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) - 2020 Offseason Edition - Vol. 10

Are you a big Lavi fan, by any chance?

Here you accuse someone else of being "childish" and acting like a "spoiled teenager" for wanting to make a big splash signing (Kane) that would "gut" the Caps roster: Proposal: - CHI-WSH

This post has you defending GMBM moves and noting every GM has a bad move "or 3": Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2020 Offseason Pt. 3

And maybe most importantly, here you are in 2020 saying GMBM is not on the hot seat and could miss the playoffs for the next 3 years and not worry about it: Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2020 Offseason Pt. 3

The only notable targets I could find from you over the last few years have been guys like Galchenyuk and Perry.

I don't mean to attack you personally, but you're calling everyone here "delusional" for disagreeing with you, and it seems like you have the ability to understand how these things all work but you don't WANT to right now.

You've previously argued with others that you come here to "vent frustration". So it seems that's just what you're doing, with a veneer of plausibility and rationlization that conflicts with many of your previous comments.

In general, "I don't care how" isn't a plan anyone is going to pay for. It's the kind of thing tyrants say when they're commanding minions to bring them the head of an enemy ,but it doesn't build sustainable sports franchises. And I think you know this.

Yep I’ve agreed with some moves he made, supported moves he made, hated moved he made, been wrong about moves he made. Just like everyone has. So that means I can’t be critical of him now because ultimately they didn’t work out? Or because I don’t buy his words as gold like most do? If you want to believe that he’s now just going to revamp the roster, bring in top tier talent, make great draft picks, have them developed/handled them properly be my guest. Drink that kool-aid. I never advocated for who I wanted because he isn’t going to do so. I’d love to be proved wrong by him. But when the evidence supports the other outcome year after year I’m not going to just hang on every word he says as truth. Every time he opened his mouth last season there was always talk of “top 6 under 30 player”. When did we get that? He heard about it pre draft. We heard about it post draft. We heard about it in season. Never happened. Save the “we tried” reply because it’s worn out. He used that excuse last year and the year before. Not buying it. You have to give to get.

 

[HTFN]

In general, "I don't care how" isn't a plan anyone is going to pay for. It's the kind of thing tyrants say when they're commanding minions to bring them the head of an enemy ,but it doesn't build sustainable sports franchises. And I think you know this.

A++ receipts but this is my favorite line by a lot.

It's exactly the type of thing that "bad royalty" says in lieu of standing by their own policy decisions. I want the result and don't know how it can happen but surely it must, so do it or I'll judge you harshly.

Not a fan of the 'I gotcha' posts of years on by. My dirty laundry of hot takes will not look good...as appropriate for a joyful amateur fan.

I think you misunderstand the premise? I've got my hot takes too and I'll eat them if someone wants to bring receipts. We're talking about the procedure of a GM here, so when somebody seems mostly in-line with the reasoning and then brays at the results it's fair to ask if the problem is with the GM's rationale or the person's frustration.

When somebody calls the field "delusional" because they're fine with taking a measured approach it's okay to fact check how they felt at the time of the decisions they criticize now.

Yep I’ve agreed with some moves he made, supported moves he made, hated moved he made, been wrong about moves he made. Just like everyone has. So that means I can’t be critical of him now because ultimately they didn’t work out? Or because I don’t buy his words as gold like most do? If you want to believe that he’s now just going to revamp the roster, bring in top tier talent, make great draft picks, have them developed/handled them properly be my guest. Drink that kool-aid. I never advocated for who I wanted because he isn’t going to do so. I’d love to be proved wrong by him. But when the evidence supports the other outcome year after year I’m not going to just hang on every word he says as truth. Every time he opened his mouth last season there was always talk of “top 6 under 30 player”. When did we get that? He heard about it pre draft. We heard about it post draft. We heard about it in season. Never happened. Save the “we tried” reply because it’s worn out. He used that excuse last year and the year before. Not buying it. You have to give to get.

And on cue...

It's like you don't get how this works. Give what? Which player? Do you even know? Like... can you narrow down who they were shopping for and what the breaking point was? Testing the market and being unwilling to bend over is not a failure same as shitting the bed isn't better than not shitting the bed. Doing something to take action even if it doesn't make long term sense for you isn't a good move.

Some wanted the Caps to go for Karlsson, look at the Penguins right now (again, because I already said this to you, but look harder and think more). Is that where you want to be?

Dude skirted the cap complications of a team built to chase the cap ceiling when the pandemic flattened the growth and at least kept building playoff teams, lost a contingency plan to retirement, watched a prime center decide to f*** his career and coast, managed to let a legend ease out on injury with some grace (and hopefully another soon)... half the playoff series after saw the Caps just rocked with injury, it's not stuff you can project and plan for.

You go back and look at each year and the conversations we'd have here and people knew the Caps couldn't manage a big swing. This is the first year they can even think about it for quite some time.

 

[Todd Lazarchick]

A++ receipts but this is my favorite line by a lot.

It's exactly the type of thing that "bad royalty" says in lieu of standing by their own policy decisions. I want the result and don't know how it can happen but surely it must, so do it or I'll judge you harshly.

I think you misunderstand the premise? I've got my hot takes too and I'll eat them if someone wants to bring receipts. We're talking about the procedure of a GM here, so when somebody seems mostly in-line with the reasoning and then brays at the results it's fair to ask if the problem is with the GM's rationale or the person's frustration.

When somebody calls the field "delusional" because they're fine with taking a measured approach it's okay to fact check how they felt at the time of the decisions they criticize now.

And on cue...

It's like you don't get how this works. Give what? Which player? Do you even know? Like... can you narrow down who they were shopping for and what the breaking point was? Testing the market and being unwilling to bend over is not a failure same as shitting the bed isn't better than not shitting the bed. Doing something to take action even if it doesn't make long term sense for you isn't a good move.

Some wanted the Caps to go for Karlsson, look at the Penguins right now (again, because I already said this to you, but look harder and think more). Is that where you want to be?

Dude skirted the cap complications of a team built to chase the cap ceiling when the pandemic flattened the growth and at least kept building playoff teams, lost a contingency plan to retirement, watched a prime center decide to f*** his career and coast, managed to let a legend ease out on injury with some grace (and hopefully another soon)... half the playoff series after saw the Caps just rocked with injury, it's not stuff you can project and plan for.

You go back and look at each year and the conversations we'd have here and people knew the Caps couldn't manage a big swing. This is the first year they can even think about it for quite some time.

Not my job to figure out who was/wasn’t available for trade. Also not my job to figure out what the package was for said player. That’s his. This constant “we tried” excuse from him is old and worn out. If you want to give him a pass for not taking a risk to make the team better for hoarding of prospects/picks be my guest. If you like meddling in mediocrity and maxing out at first round exits kudos to you. That’s not the standard I hold him to. 10 years without a single top tier player acquisitions via signing/trade/draft is bottom of the barrel GM’ing. Sorry but it is. You want to crown him for Oshie and Kempny but want to throw out the Panik, Hagelin, Mantha etc etc.

 

[Langway]

Even the most avid MacLellan backers have to admit the excuses go out the window this off-season. They have the flexibility now to make significant moves. Resorting to the Pacioretty's of the world shouldn't be acceptable. The core needs an influx of reliable energy and determination. They need tonesetters given that their best and most reliable one is probably Carlson. Up front it's...Protas? There's vast upgrade leeway to be made up front. So much that if the best they do are the likes of Bertuzzi or DeBrusk it's going to be disappointing I think.

While Lapierre and Miro look like able middle six talents I'm not sure they'll be go-to talents. Leonard should be a natural in time. But they do need more true high IQ, two-way foundational talents. Their best bet at 17 probably won't be such a polished all-around talent unless it's one of the Norwegians. Otherwise they'll probably be in position to take more of an offensive talent in the hopes that in time the rest gets brushed up. Not a bad way to go and, again, there's massive room for improvement up front. But they really need to act like they get that they were the 28th-ranked offense and 29th-ranked offense 5v5. Getting that even back to average is going to be an undertaking.

 

[Marshall]

Even the most avid MacLellan backers have to admit the excuses go out the window this off-season.

Sums it up.

 

[Roshi]

Not my job to figure out who was/wasn’t available for trade. Also not my job to figure out what the package was for said player. That’s his. This constant “we tried” excuse from him is old and worn out. If you want to give him a pass for not taking a risk to make the team better for hoarding of prospects/picks be my guest. If you like meddling in mediocrity and maxing out at first round exits kudos to you. That’s not the standard I hold him to. 10 years without a single top tier player acquisitions via signing/trade/draft is bottom of the barrel GM’ing. Sorry but it is. You want to crown him for Oshie and Kempny but want to throw out the Panik, Hagelin, Mantha etc etc.

He traded Vrana+1st + for Mantha and cap space.

Traded 1st for Sandin. Traded for Edmundsson.

Signed Kuemper. Signed and re-signed Strome. And punch of others.

With a cap strapped team thats not ”nothing”. He has taken risks. And will continue doing so this summer.

Expecting 1-2 ”bigger trades” and atleast 1 middle six signing from FA. Not sure what else we can ask for now, the ”next core” is under construction and desperation moves (like Forsberg for Erat, lol) can as easily set us back for years.

Pens went with the ”lets take risks” with Karlsson and Granlund (heh) and some other splashy moves. Didnt give them the shortcuts you are asking for. They are now years behind us. Of course that can change too, but im glad we didnt do something like Erik Karlsson last summer and instead kept the course, with some luck and right finds we can be relevant again in just 2-3 years and thats without totally bombing it away for a decade like many teams have done.

BM has a plan and whatever you think about him, atleast he has been quite consistent and outgoing with it. And id say most of us in the forum agree that the turns we have taken under BM’s watch have all been very logical for where the team went at given times.

 

[g00n]

Yep I’ve agreed with some moves he made, supported moves he made, hated moved he made, been wrong about moves he made. Just like everyone has. So that means I can’t be critical of him now because ultimately they didn’t work out? Or because I don’t buy his words as gold like most do? If you want to believe that he’s now just going to revamp the roster, bring in top tier talent, make great draft picks, have them developed/handled them properly be my guest. Drink that kool-aid. I never advocated for who I wanted because he isn’t going to do so. I’d love to be proved wrong by him. But when the evidence supports the other outcome year after year I’m not going to just hang on every word he says as truth. Every time he opened his mouth last season there was always talk of “top 6 under 30 player”. When did we get that? He heard about it pre draft. We heard about it post draft. We heard about it in season. Never happened. Save the “we tried” reply because it’s worn out. He used that excuse last year and the year before. Not buying it. You have to give to get.

Maybe your infrequent posting suggests infrequent reading, I don't know, but we've had many discussions about who is available realistically and who the Caps are trying to move at any given time. Our biggest pieces for trade were either hurt or nobody wanted them.

Who did you want to "give to get"?

Not my job to figure out who was/wasn’t available for trade. Also not my job to figure out what the package was for said player. That’s his. This constant “we tried” excuse from him is old and worn out. If you want to give him a pass for not taking a risk to make the team better for hoarding of prospects/picks be my guest. If you like meddling in mediocrity and maxing out at first round exits kudos to you. That’s not the standard I hold him to. 10 years without a single top tier player acquisitions via signing/trade/draft is bottom of the barrel GM’ing. Sorry but it is. You want to crown him for Oshie and Kempny but want to throw out the Panik, Hagelin, Mantha etc etc.

YOU LOVED THE MANTHA TRADE.

It's like a Jekyll and Hyde routine here. You don't seem to understand the disconnect and inconsistency of appearing to understand and agree with the moves being made, and why, then later on saying "nope, those didn't work, you suck, but it's not my job to fix it".


Here's the thing with that line of reasoning: you can't just say "it's not my job so I don't have to know how to fix it" because knowing what can and can't be done is part of changing anything or leaving it alone.

Imagine standing behind a surgeon and trying to tell him what to do but having no clue about biology or anatomy beyond what you read online.

Or better yet, imagine giving a doctor permission to try a risky procedure on a terminally ill patient because you understand the chances of survival are already slim, then blaming the doctor and suing him when the patient dies.

You agreed with the surgery before. Now you want the doctor's job.

Even the most avid MacLellan backers have to admit the excuses go out the window this off-season. They have the flexibility now to make significant moves.

Everyone has been saying this for a long time. GMBM has talked about what he can do, and what he wants to do. This is always transparent.

The offseason hasn't even started yet.

So let's see what happens.

 

[g00n]

Not a fan of the 'I gotcha' posts of years on by. My dirty laundry of hot takes will not look good...as appropriate for a joyful amateur fan.

HTFN summed it up already, but to reiterate, the point isn't to launch some "gotcha" personal attack since I have no history with this poster and don't really care one way or the other. It just seemed weird and is a posting style I haven't seen in a while here, from an account I don't recognize.

The "receipts" are to show the context of the current discussion as it relates to previous statements because they're relevant to whether or not there's any merit to this opinion, and whether spending a lot of time volleying back and forth is worthwhile.

Calling the rest of us delusional for following the same basic lines of logic that were previously understood is already pretty inflammatory, so I was curious to see if there was some firmly held philosophy at play or just mercurial musings and complaining.

I got my answer.

 

[Todd Lazarchick]

Maybe your infrequent posting suggests infrequent reading, I don't know, but we've had many discussions about who is available realistically and who the Caps are trying to move at any given time. Our biggest pieces for trade were either hurt or nobody wanted them.

Who did you want to "give to get"?




YOU LOVED THE MANTHA TRADE.

It's like a Jekyll and Hyde routine here. You don't seem to understand the disconnect and inconsistency of appearing to understand and agree with the moves being made, and why, then later on saying "nope, those didn't work, you suck, but it's not my job to fix it".


Here's the thing with that line of reasoning: you can't just say "it's not my job so I don't have to know how to fix it" because knowing what can and can't be done is part of changing anything or leaving it alone.

Imagine standing behind a surgeon and trying to tell him what to do but having no clue about biology or anatomy beyond what you read online.

Or better yet, imagine giving a doctor permission to try a risky procedure on a terminally ill patient because you understand the chances of survival are already slim, then blaming the doctor and suing him when the patient dies.

You agreed with the surgery before. Now you want the doctor's job.



Everyone has been saying this for a long time. GMBM has talked about what he can do, and what he wants to do. This is always transparent.

The offseason hasn't even started yet.

So let's see what happens.

What relevance is there to me loving a trade? I liked the aggressiveness to it and what he brought vs Vrana. Absolutely. I’m a fan. I don’t get paid to be right for whether it was a good/bad trade. He does. He’s to be judged for his success vs his failures for roster construction and team success of that roster.

 

[Todd Lazarchick]

HTFN summed it up already, but to reiterate, the point isn't to launch some "gotcha" personal attack since I have no history with this poster and don't really care one way or the other. It just seemed weird and is a posting style I haven't seen in a while here, from an account I don't recognize.

The "receipts" are to show the context of the current discussion as it relates to previous statements because they're relevant to whether or not there's any merit to this opinion, and whether spending a lot of time volleying back and forth is worthwhile.

Calling the rest of us delusional for following the same basic lines of logic that were previously understood is already pretty inflammatory, so I was curious to see if there was some firmly held philosophy at play or just mercurial musings and complaining.

I got my answer.

The “merit” to my opinion is the fact that this team hasn’t won a playoff series in 6 years. And without some pretty decent roster overhaul next season (which isn’t GMBMs MO) it’ll be 7 and counting. Where do you get off being the judge and jury on who can and can’t like moves at the time vs criticism when they are evident it wasn’t a good move? The Mantha trade was touted as the move of the deadline by most media after it happened. But let’s not act like the motivation factor was some mysterious thing out of nowhere. Everyone knew it. He banked on it changing. He was wrong. He should be judged for it. It’s how it works. Kuznetsov being a headcase and coasting wasn’t some brand new revelation either. It was out there. He banked on it changing. He was wrong. He should be judged for it. Oshie being injury prone isn’t some out of the blue thing. It’s gotten worse. He could have been proactive. As much as he’s loved by myself included, I’d rather have dealt with it before now hoping he decides to retire (which I doubt).

 

[g00n]

What relevance is there to me loving a trade? I liked the aggressiveness to it and what he brought vs Vrana. Absolutely. I’m a fan. I don’t get paid to be right for whether it was a good/bad trade. He does. He’s to be judged for his success vs his failures for roster construction and team success of that roster.

One problem is you're abdicating any responsibility for your own opinions why also berating others for not agreeing with them.

Another problem is you claim to see the logic in a move at the time, but if it doesn't work out you don't give him the same credit you give yourself.

Paying someone to do something doesn't make them a wizard.

 

[Todd Lazarchick]

One problem is you're abdicating any responsibility for your own opinions why also berating others for not agreeing with them.

Another problem is you claim to see the logic in a move at the time, but if it doesn't work out you don't give him the same credit you give yourself.

Paying someone to do something doesn't make them a wizard.

Do I need to say “yep I was wrong at the time about the trade” to make you feel better? Lol. It’s very odd that you don’t see the difference a fan’s optimism about a trade vs someone who is supposed to be elite at the job of acquiring the correct pieces and how one being wrong is not the same as the other.

 

[Kalopsia]

Not my job to figure out who was/wasn’t available for trade. Also not my job to figure out what the package was for said player. That’s his. This constant “we tried” excuse from him is old and worn out. If you want to give him a pass for not taking a risk to make the team better for hoarding of prospects/picks be my guest. If you like meddling in mediocrity and maxing out at first round exits kudos to you. That’s not the standard I hold him to. 10 years without a single top tier player acquisitions via signing/trade/draft is bottom of the barrel GM’ing. Sorry but it is. You want to crown him for Oshie and Kempny but want to throw out the Panik, Hagelin, Mantha etc etc.

Let's say hypothetically that last August, MacLellan traded Jensen (25% retained), Lingren, this year's 1st, next year's 2nd, and a few other prospects for Erik Karlsson at a 10M cap hit, and then the Caps went on to just miss the playoffs as Karlsson's production dropped 50%. Would you really be happier right now because MacLellan made a top tier player acquisition, even though that hypothetical team is objectively in a worse position?

Even the most avid MacLellan backers have to admit the excuses go out the window this off-season. They have the flexibility now to make significant moves. Resorting to the Pacioretty's of the world shouldn't be acceptable. The core needs an influx of reliable energy and determination. They need tonesetters given that their best and most reliable one is probably Carlson. Up front it's...Protas? There's vast upgrade leeway to be made up front. So much that if the best they do are the likes of Bertuzzi or DeBrusk it's going to be disappointing I think.

Agreed, this summer MacLellan either needs to make significant additions or commit to a real rebuild. There's no reason we should get a repeat of last offseason.

 

[Brian23]

I'll never understand how people are able to advocate for foundational changes, but just can't seem to actually pin point what or how they'd want those changes to take affect. Much like coaching changes, if you're calling for the head of the GM you best have an idea of who you want to replace him with. If you don't what actual good is your opinion? What are you actually advocating for? It's just whinging.

For GM's, and maybe for anyone in sports really, you have to judge the process and not the results. That's how good foundational organizations are run. In GMBM's case, his process has almost always been great. Outside of the Mantha trade, and their early draft focus, I struggle to find much of anything to really hate about his process. Has he had all great results? Obviously not, but I'd really love for these ardent haters to actually point too all these awful moves he made. What seems to happen is they get up in arms about imaginary moves, one's that they can't even actually name because they're only in their minds.

 

[Calicaps]

Even the most avid MacLellan backers have to admit the excuses go out the window this off-season. They have the flexibility now to make significant moves. Resorting to the Pacioretty's of the world shouldn't be acceptable. The core needs an influx of reliable energy and determination. They need tonesetters given that their best and most reliable one is probably Carlson. Up front it's...Protas? There's vast upgrade leeway to be made up front. So much that if the best they do are the likes of Bertuzzi or DeBrusk it's going to be disappointing I think.

While Lapierre and Miro look like able middle six talents I'm not sure they'll be go-to talents. Leonard should be a natural in time. But they do need more true high IQ, two-way foundational talents. Their best bet at 17 probably won't be such a polished all-around talent unless it's one of the Norwegians. Otherwise they'll probably be in position to take more of an offensive talent in the hopes that in time the rest gets brushed up. Not a bad way to go and, again, there's massive room for improvement up front. But they really need to act like they get that they were the 28th-ranked offense and 29th-ranked offense 5v5. Getting that even back to average is going to be an undertaking.

And thus are they not excuses. He's had legitimate barriers to progress--some admittedly self-inflicted and some just circumstance--and has been working to remove those. They are not all gone, but they are fewer and so yes, this offseason we should see key steps toward an improved roster. But it's also still a process. If he makes moves to bolster the team, that is not likely to equate to instant contention. They should be better next season and again the year after and the year after that. Assuming most of his moves pay off, I'd say 25-26 is the year the team should be genuinely "good" again.

But framing it as excuses again presumes there's no plan being executed here and I think that's wrong.

(Also, I think you underestimate Lappy and Miro, but that's just me.)

 

[kicksavedave]

I think its a much better approach to posting to simply stomp your feet and shout in a vaguely British accent "I want to win now, daddy and if I don't get what I want I'm going to scream" while criticizing most of the posters here as being delusional for supporting the GM who brought us our only Cup in 44 years.

Or as I tell my 8 year old son, if you need a hug, just ask for one.