Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines/etc) | 2023-24 Regular Season Edition
- Thread starter AlexModvechkin8
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These posts are always my favorite. It’s not his or anyone’s job to find that talent. Ya know who has that title? GMBM. He gets freaking paid to do it.
Ovechkins Wodka
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Top 10/5/3 GMs don’t go 6 years without a playoff series win coming off a cup. Some of you are absolutely delusional.
Ovechkins Wodka
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Whens the last time the Penguins, Hawks, or Kings won a playoff series after their last cup wins? Ill wait... It was the Penguins in 2018 when we knocked them out (thanks Kuz).
But all the cup winners from that era did not do much after the last cup.
Really lol? I’ll bite….
2023- Vegas - MUCH better managed top tier team every year.
2022- Colorado- MUCH better managed top tier team every year.
2020/2021- Tampa Bay- 2 cups and top tier team every single year
2019 - St Louis - worse
2016/2017- Pittsburg- two cups back to back and favorites in 2018
2010/2013/2015 - Chicago - 3 in 6 years enough said
2012/2014- LA- 2 cups in 3 years enough said
2011 - Boston - top tier team every single year
So aside from us and STL every cup winner for the last THIRTEEN YEARS has had more success than GMBM or more sustained success.
Ovechkins Wodka
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Hivemind
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All three of those teams have fired their GMs. So.... not really sure that's the best counterargument to go towards.
Chokingdogs
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- Apr 18, 2006
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That nifty graph looks like a level on the Tempest arcade game.
Ovechkins Wodka
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We know Ted almost never fires anyone. I was just pointing out how hard it is to keep winning after going all in for a cup run.
Vegas almost missed the playoffs and choked a 2-0 lead in the 1st round.
Avs seem alot like the Caps with no goalie and a top paid player with off ice problems
Actually yeah, they do. Stan Bowman won his last Cup in 2015 then never won another playoff series (up through 2021). He's out of the league now.
Jim Rutherford won his last cup in 2017 then didn't win another series, changing teams even, until this year (2024), 7 years later.
Dean Lombardi won his two Cups then never won another playoff series. He's now in some unnamed position with Philly, working under his former assistant, Hextall.
Doug Armstrong didn't win a series after the Blues Cup in 2019, until 2022, but they failed to qualify for the playoffs entirely the last two years. They also failed to qualify for the playoffs the year before they won the Cup, making their Cup win all that much more random.
Your expectations are out of line, but you're free to want someone better than BMac. Let us know who you prefer instead?
HTFN
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- Feb 8, 2009
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It's called managing the situation in front of you.
Again, nobody expected a pandemic to flatten cap growth for a few years or for Kuznetsov to just give up. Those two things alone can throw off a few years of planning.
what the f*** are you complaining about? Don't you look at where the Capitals are compared to, say, Pittsburgh and think "glad we're not them" in terms of who is better poised to be good over the next 10 years? The wheels are about to start falling off big time in Boston too.
You're ignoring a ton of variables like cap landscape and core age/construction in your list and basically just screaming into the wind that it's just "not good enough" because it maybe could have been better (even though we don't know that) and then refusing to back that up.
You mean 3 time cup winner Stan Bowman?
You mean 3 time cup winner Jim Rutherford?
You mean 2 time cup winner Dean Lombardi?
You are seriously put them in the same stratosphere as GMBM?! LMAO
Ovechkins Wodka
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How much of this is Ted and how much is GMBM. Ted has been shown to be greedy with MSN and moving the team to VA. Do we know if GMBM wanted to blow up the roster after the islanders swept us in the 1st round? Ted has been wanting to keep the season ticket holders and push the Ovie 895 race. Its been on note that Ted told Ovie he would keep the team competitive so making the playoffs all but 1 season could be viewed as good GMing depending on what Ted asked him to do.
I would have full blown tanked like the Hawks but I dont own the Caps.
I would have full blown tanked like the Hawks but I dont own the Caps.
Simply stating that the notion of wining a cup then being irrelevant for the next 6 years is no “normal” as it’s being assumed.
Besides your data being arbitrary opinions like "top tier"... your facts aren't even correct. Boston Fired Chiarelli after they failed to make the playoffs in 2015 and 2016. In Tampa, Yzerman built the team that set an NHL record for wins, but Julien Brisbois was the GM when they won their two Cups (his first and second years as their GM). They've finished 3rd in their division the last two years and haven't won a playoff series since 2022, Brisbois' 3rd year as GM.
They won a cup (or 2, or 3), then didn't win another playoff series, which you claimed no one ever did other than BMac. Just correcting your factually incorrect statements, is all. And no, GMBM isn't in that tier, he's one level below the absolute best GM's of the last decade plus. Straw man argument, not accepted.
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Again, I understand that there was salary cap issues, but they took what was possibly still a championship caliber team and said screw it. We’ll go with two rookie goalies and see what happens. Vanny didn’t pass the eye test right away and I’ve been wrong about a lot of things in hockey, but to me he never looked like an NHL goalie. Sammy was given many regular season games where you could see that he could make the big saves, but he couldn’t make the small routine ones. I said they couldn’t predict the Lunquist thing but if you really believe your team still had a chance to win with the core that they had then they should have gotten a real goalie back then. that’s what winning teams do. Look at Carolina Colorado and possibly Edmonton. They all have championship caliber teams with zero goaltending. Edmonton is just flat out scoring more goals than they allow and getting by barely and the rest of the team still left in the playoffs all have real goaltenders. Another topic is that I believe there is a massive shortage of A caliber goalies in the NHL now. In my opinion on goaltending alone, Ovechkin’s first four or five seasons, and last five or six seasons was totally wasted.
HTFN
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But they weren't irrelevant just because they lost early in the playoffs, that's you painting with hindsight again. The GM can help the team make the dance but he can't play the games for them or keep them healthy.
Your list includes Colorado being good now (with a 28 year old MacKinnon making the GM look good and yet... they still have that one win and not a lot else to show for it which sounds familiar), did you want GMBM to just stack "trade value" bars ala EA NHL until he had enough bullshit to trade for a Hart candidate? Are we ignoring that the Avs also had this guy for about a decade before they won anything and that their "elite team year after year" window is way smaller than the Caps' was? Are we also ignoring that for a lot of that decade Colorado was picking in the lottery and trying to get their shit together while the Caps were out there trying to win playoff series? They're on separate time tables.
LA and Chicago burned very bright, but fairly briefly, and absolutely nothing about the way they've been managed since suggests that either team is doing anything GMBM wouldn't/can't. Chicago had a particularly spectacular set of moves that made exactly zero sense and have punted players like Panarin, Strome, and DeBrincat over the years. Great management.
BMac became the GM in 2014. Since then they have won 2 presidents trophies, 1 Cup and 7 total playoff series. They failed to qualify for the playoffs only once, last year.
Bmac is also the 4th longest tenured GM with the same team.
Bmac is also the 4th longest tenured GM with the same team.
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hb13xchamps
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I’d say the biggest difference between pretty much all of those teams and Washington is the fact that they all won cups earlier in the career of their core players. All of those teams, besides Vegas and a lesser extent LA with Richards/Carter, developed the majority of their core of players as well.
LA - Kopitar, Brown, Quick, Doughty
Chicago - Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Crawford
Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Fleury/Murray
Colorado - MacKinnon, Makar, Ratanen, Landeskog
Tampa - Point, Hedman, Stamkos, Vasi
St Louis is kind of an outlier and really just super random. That was just a magical run for them. They’ve been pretty mid to lower tier since.
The majority of those early Caps teams had good pieces around Ovechkin, Backstrom and company but in hindsight they had a ton of glaring holes. The defense under McPhee was absolutely dog shit and guys like Tyler Sloan and Steve Oleksy are great hockey stories, but those guys had no business being full time NHL players. The goaltending was also a revolving door of players until Holtby provided stability back there.
The Caps 2010s is the 4th best decade for a team in the history of the NHL. Since BMac took over in May 2014, the Caps have the third most wins in the NHL over that time frame (and a Cup). That doesn’t happen if you’re a bad GM. Sure, McPhee was the GM who found some of the players but this organization was lost from the Halak series through McPhee’s ouster. Three head coaches in three years, Ovi’s steep scoring decline, multiple different playing styles…
2011-2013 was a waste of time for this organization and MacLellan took over at a time when things had gone sideways. If you’re going to give McPhee all the credit for drafting the star players on the team then the blame for wasting the prime of those star players also falls squarely on him and MacLellan should get the credit for putting Humpty Dumpty back together. You can’t have it both ways.
Those f***ing Penguins… talk about terrible timing. The Caps had nearly the same level of dominance as the 1970s Canadiens and Bruins but just so happened to be playing at the same time as the one team who exceeded their historic run. Just absolute shit luck. Without the Pens being that good this Caps core probably has 3-4 Cups by now.
2011-2013 was a waste of time for this organization and MacLellan took over at a time when things had gone sideways. If you’re going to give McPhee all the credit for drafting the star players on the team then the blame for wasting the prime of those star players also falls squarely on him and MacLellan should get the credit for putting Humpty Dumpty back together. You can’t have it both ways.
Those f***ing Penguins… talk about terrible timing. The Caps had nearly the same level of dominance as the 1970s Canadiens and Bruins but just so happened to be playing at the same time as the one team who exceeded their historic run. Just absolute shit luck. Without the Pens being that good this Caps core probably has 3-4 Cups by now.
I mentioned above that the Caps under BMac won 2 Presidents Trophies. Unfortunately those two teams lost in the 2nd round to the eventual Cup winners, the Pens. Then the magical 2018 happened. If the Caps had a tiny bit of magic in 2016 or 2017, they very well could have had 2 or 3 total Cups from that run. Even without the magic, they've been one of the best teams in the league since 2014, when GMBM took over for a team that missed the playoffs and as you put it, looked lost.
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Are you shifting this to a debate over who was the best GM at their peak, or are we talking about who we'd want running the Caps right now? Because I wouldn't want any of those guys anywhere near the reins in DC.
- Bowman built his dynasty using cap shenanigans that are either no longer legal (back-diving contracts) or will probably be banned in the next couple years (LTIR manipulation). He's also currently blacklisted for covering up the rape of one of his players, so he's not even a real option.
- Rutherford took a Pens team that was in roughly the same place as the Caps at the start of the 18-19 season, made none of the flashy moves people here wish MacLellan would make while whiffing on pretty much all his medium-sized moves (trading for four straight 1sts for Zucker, Brassard, Kapanen, and Reaves, dumping Horqvist for Matheson, signing and then having to buy out Jack Johnson), and dug that team into a hole it'll take them years to climb out of.
- Lombardi's Kings won 1 total playoff game in the three years after their second Cup before he was fired and hasn't been given a GM gig since.
Also, as an exercise in framing, let's take a look at Joe Sakic. He took over about a month before the 2013 draft where they got MacKinnon. Missed the playoffs 3 of his first 4 years in Colorado, didn't win a playoff series until year 6, hasn't made it out of the second round any year but cup run in 22, has only had two draft picks outside the top 16 pick become a full-time NHLer in ten years running the Avs: AJ Greer in 2015 (39th overall pick who Sakic traded away for nothing and is now a 4th liner in Calgary) and Will Butcher in 2013 (5th rounder who went to college, didn't sign with the Avs, had some early success with the Devils but has already washed out to the AHL). Clearly a terrible GM, right? Can't draft with later picks, can't build for the playoffs besides that one year, can't figure out the goaltending situation, can't work around inconsequential issues like major injuries and players having substance abuse issues... what a hack.
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Ovechkins Wodka
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Also is it on GMBM or Ted that after we won the cup in 2018 that he went cheap and wouldnt pay the coach and left the team to 1st time coach Todd
1. There’s not a single team that would rather our roster/prospects/structure etc etc over the likes of Colorado or Vegas or Boston or Tampa Bay lol. You can’t even say that with a straight face.
2. Thank you for proving that after the likes of TB or BOS not meeting expectations they should have both of their GMs were let go.
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