Capitals owner unveiling plans for new arena in Northern Virginia

[AcerComputer]

No, a new sports arena is not going to bring in 10,000+ jobs.

"The Commonwealth will now be home to two professional sports teams, a new corporate headquarters, and over 30,000 new jobs -- this is monumental," Youngkin said in a statement.

 

[AcerComputer]

This is something that has changed over time and for good reason.

But in today's climate, sports team owners are making lots of money. They've found ways to cash in through TV deals. We don't actually need to give them more money.

Back when sports teams were a fun thing that communities wanted for fun and rich people owned but broke even - that was different. Nowadays they're milking it for every penny and doing quite well. Even scumbag failure Dan Snyder bought the Redskins for $800M and sold for $6B.

These people don't need more of our money. But they'll take it if we're dumb enough.



No, the economic impact is not gong to be tens of thousands of jobs. Our area already has a 2.4% unemployment rate. You could create a million new jobs and that 2.4% is barely going to budge. Even in huge recessions it rarely exceeds 4%. Our local economy is based largely on Government and Government contracting - and those dollars don't ever go away basically. We are largely recession-proof and we don't lack for jobs.

This is not a huge win for Virginia. It's a bunch of traffic that nobody wants in service to a greedy douchebag owner and the politicians he's bought.

And frankly, it's an extremely myopic view of the world to favor VA over DC economically. DC is 2 miles away as the crow flies. But since there is an invisible border there I should care if jobs are created here in Virginia where they're NOT needed instead of a few miles further north where they might actually do some good? -That makes no sense to me. It's something a butthead politician would care about as opposed to a rational citizen.

Great story, but that's not how it works. VA Doesn't benefit from an arena being in DC. They benefit when it's in their state. It's a business decision that will have future economic impact for them for many decades to come. According to the reports this will create 30,000 new jobs, but you know better than the consultants that negotiated this multi-billion dollar deal. The City is only kicking in $106M of the $2B deal. $1.5B will be through State issued bonds that will be repaid.

 

[Satans Hockey]

"The Commonwealth will now be home to two professional sports teams, a new corporate headquarters, and over 30,000 new jobs -- this is monumental," Youngkin said in a statement.

Politicians lie, it's been proven over and over again by numerous reports, just browse on Google, that stadiums don't actually bring in that many jobs. The vast majority are temporary, like the construction workers and the rest are part time jobs that pay minimum wages or slightly above and don't include benefits because the workers aren't full time. The amount of actual full time workers with benefits is generally just in the hundreds.

 

[AcerComputer]

Politicians lie, it's been proven over and over again by numerous reports, just browse on Google, that stadiums don't actually bring in that many jobs. The vast majority are temporary, like the construction workers and the rest are part time jobs that pay minimum wages or slightly above and don't include benefits because the workers aren't full time. The amount of actual full time workers with benefits is generally just in the hundreds.

To say that Politicians lie is disinformation and undermines democracy

Unless you can provide any proof to back up what you are saying, you are you are is essence just making stuff up. Look into the multiplier effect when it comes to adding a new job, it creates 4-5 other new jobs that indirectly support it. The arena may only directly bring in 6,000 new jobs, but with the multiplier effect it actually creates 30,000 jobs in total. You are also assuming that they won't be adding new roads and developing the infrastructure. So the traffic issue you are so worried about could be resolved if this new arena deal goes through. The owner also said most of the season ticket holders are located in VA and not in DC. Additionally, the City is only kicking in $106M of the $2B deal. $1.5B will be through State issued bonds that will be repaid.

 

[Satans Hockey]

To say that Politicians lie is disinformation and undermines democracy

Unless you can provide any proof to back up what you are saying, you are you are is essence just making stuff up. Look into the multiplier effect when it comes to adding a new job, it creates 4-5 other new jobs that indirectly support it. The arena may only directly bring in 6,000 new jobs, but with the multiplier effect it actually creates 30,000 jobs in total. You are also assuming that they won't be adding new roads and developing the infrastructure. So the traffic issue you are so worried about could be resolved if this new arena deal goes through. The owner also said most of the season ticket holders are located in VA and not in DC. Additionally, the City is only kicking in $106M of the $2B deal. $1.5B will be through State issued bonds that will be repaid.

I never said I was worried about the traffic issue, I don't even remotely claim to know enough about the area to comment on that since I'm not a caps fan nor live in the area.

Arenas don't create 30k new permanent jobs, it's temporary work to pad up the numbers to make it look like spending tax payers money on these projects look worth it when they have been proven to overall not benefit tax payers. Just Google about new arenas being worth it and there are tons of articles about it, the research is all there.

 

[pedis]

Just getting away from Washington is a good move. I like the idea quite a bit

 

[cptjeff]

Politicians lie, it's been proven over and over again by numerous reports, just browse on Google, that stadiums don't actually bring in that many jobs. The vast majority are temporary, like the construction workers and the rest are part time jobs that pay minimum wages or slightly above and don't include benefits because the workers aren't full time. The amount of actual full time workers with benefits is generally just in the hundreds.

...all construction jobs are temporary. Doesn't mean that it's not a huge sector of the economy and that those workers don't like having big years long projects for employment and can't build full careers out of temporary jobs. Because people do exactly that thanks to projects like this.

 

[cptjeff]

I agree with most of what you say but 26 mile radius in the DC area is nothing. That covers most of Montgomery, Fairfax and PG county. There is still western/southern Anne Arundel , Loudoun, and PW county which is considered the DC Metro area which have large population bases, and money.

That said, DC is becoming somewhat irrelevant in terms of business, and really has for a few decades. Most of the entertainment districts in DC (sans Georgetown) close early (9-10PM). The Feds are what drives it and good portion of those people come in from central VA and WV. They are mostly all in and out for work.

The two hour drive that guy was referring to was hyperbole. It may have taken him two hours a couple times, but generally speaking, it is an isolated event.

26 miles out is roughly Laurel, Gaithersburg, Sterling, Upper Marlboro. None of those are remotely close to 2 hours away from either location, but none of them are exactly convenient to either location, either.

Quite frankly, if you choose to live that far out from the urban core, you should expect to have difficulty accessing things in the urban core. That's the f*ing tradeoff you make when chasing after your McMansion. I live in a small house near a metro stop because I wanted to prioritize access to the urban core- and guess, what, it works! Potomac Yards is only a 3 metro stop difference for me, or most anyone on the B/O/S line.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

While they're at it, can they get rid of their boring-as-watching-paint-dry logo and go back to the Screaming Eagle permanently?

 

[AcerComputer]

I never said I was worried about the traffic issue, I don't even remotely claim to know enough about the area to comment on that since I'm not a caps fan nor live in the area.

Arenas don't create 30k new permanent jobs, it's temporary work to pad up the numbers to make it look like spending tax payers money on these projects look worth it when they have been proven to overall not benefit tax payers. Just Google about new arenas being worth it and there are tons of articles about it, the research is all there.

So if it's only a few hundred jobs who cares - it doesn't matter if they are in DC or VA then? Either DC has to sink 500M+ into arena upgrades or VA gives them $106M towards the new arena? Sounds like the move will actually save tax payers money?

 

[Cas]

To say that Politicians lie is disinformation and undermines democracy

Unless you can provide any proof to back up what you are saying, you are you are is essence just making stuff up. Look into the multiplier effect when it comes to adding a new job, it creates 4-5 other new jobs that indirectly support it. The arena may only directly bring in 6,000 new jobs, but with the multiplier effect it actually creates 30,000 jobs in total. You are also assuming that they won't be adding new roads and developing the infrastructure. So the traffic issue you are so worried about could be resolved if this new arena deal goes through. The owner also said most of the season ticket holders are located in VA and not in DC. Additionally, the City is only kicking in $106M of the $2B deal. $1.5B will be through State issued bonds that will be repaid.

They're not adding jobs, they're moving jobs around from one business to another. That's what the research says about sports facilities - all you're doing is moving entertainment spending from one pocket to another.

They get to say "we're creating jobs" by using creative accounting. They basically just ignore the debit side of the equation.

 

[FlyguyOX]

Cobb County residents are losing $15m a year on Braves stadium, comprehensive study finds

J.C. Bradbury, the Kennesaw State University sports economist who was appointed to the Cobb County Development Authority in 2019, has written several studies of the Atlanta Braves stadium that have been noted here, including one on how commercial property values around the stadium went down...

www.fieldofschemes.com

Reminds me of this

 

[Hivemind]

To say that Politicians lie is disinformation and undermines democracy

Unless you can provide any proof to back up what you are saying, you are you are is essence just making stuff up. Look into the multiplier effect when it comes to adding a new job, it creates 4-5 other new jobs that indirectly support it. The arena may only directly bring in 6,000 new jobs, but with the multiplier effect it actually creates 30,000 jobs in total. You are also assuming that they won't be adding new roads and developing the infrastructure. So the traffic issue you are so worried about could be resolved if this new arena deal goes through. The owner also said most of the season ticket holders are located in VA and not in DC. Additionally, the City is only kicking in $106M of the $2B deal. $1.5B will be through State issued bonds that will be repaid.

Burden of proof is on the individual making the statement, but here you go anyway

Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

As part of the Federal Reserve System, the St. Louis Fed works to promote a healthy economy and financial stability.

research.stlouisfed.org

The Myth That Sports Stadiums Create New Jobs and Tax Revenues

The Kansas City Chiefs are considering moving to Kansas. As a Kansan who studies economics, I hope they stay on the Missouri side.

fee.org

Stadium Frenzy Ignores Economics

As the economy bounces back from recession, so is stadium construction in the U.S. The structures cost more than a pretty penny, but few seem concerned about economics.

www.mintpressnews.com

(And theres literally dozens of more articles, studies, and even textbooks on this subject all reaching the same conclusions)

 

[Midnight Judges]

Great story, but that's not how it works. VA Doesn't benefit from an arena being in DC. They benefit when it's in their state. It's a business decision that will have future economic impact for them for many decades to come. According to the reports this will create 30,000 new jobs, but you know better than the consultants that negotiated this multi-billion dollar deal. The City is only kicking in $106M of the $2B deal. $1.5B will be through State issued bonds that will be repaid.

And who is paying these consultants?

Is this alleged to be 30,000 net new jobs? Or is it mostly a movement of jobs?

I can see how designing and building a new arena would provide temporary new jobs. Maintaining that new building - in addition to sustaining the old one - would indeed create new jobs. But I find it impossible to believe sustaining a new building alone would create a net 30,000 new jobs.

But no, selling hotdogs in Alexandria while no longer selling hotdogs for that very same event 4 miles north is not really a creation of a new job.

 

[AcerComputer]

Burden of proof is on the individual making the statement, but here you go anyway

Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

As part of the Federal Reserve System, the St. Louis Fed works to promote a healthy economy and financial stability.

research.stlouisfed.org

The Myth That Sports Stadiums Create New Jobs and Tax Revenues

The Kansas City Chiefs are considering moving to Kansas. As a Kansan who studies economics, I hope they stay on the Missouri side.

fee.org

Stadium Frenzy Ignores Economics

As the economy bounces back from recession, so is stadium construction in the U.S. The structures cost more than a pretty penny, but few seem concerned about economics.

www.mintpressnews.com

(And theres literally dozens of more articles, studies, and even textbooks on this subject all reaching the same conclusions)

You are moving the economic benefit from DC to VA. That's the flaw in your whole argument and failure to understand why it's beneficial for VA. The articles you posted actually supports the point I am making.

 

[AcerComputer]

And who is paying these consultants?

Is this alleged to be 30,000 net new jobs? Or is it mostly a movement of jobs?

I can see how designing and building a new arena would provide temporary new jobs. Maintaining that new building - in addition to sustaining the old one - would indeed create new jobs. But I find it impossible to believe sustaining a new building alone would create a net 30,000 new jobs.

But no, selling hotdogs in Alexandria while no longer selling hotdogs for that very same event 4 miles north is not really a creation of a new job.

It will mean new jobs for VA and economic loss for DC. Temporary new jobs? Every job is in essence temporary. You are counting the jobs of people working at the venue, and not the jobs that support the new people who will live and work in that area, and then support those people. As stated in my previous post, there is the economic multiplier effect.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It will mean new jobs for VA and economic loss for DC. Temporary new jobs? Every job is in essence temporary. You are counting the jobs of people working at the venue, and not the jobs that support the new people who will live and work in that area, and then support those people. As stated in my previous post, there is the economic multiplier effect.

There is an economic multiplier effect for the jobs lost in DC as well. So again, that's a net zero when it comes to job "creation." What you are counting as creation is mostly merely relocating jobs 4 miles down the road, not creating them.

I think you are the victim of an unfortunately common error known as "trusting a politician's bs."

 

[Shane Diesel]

To say that Politicians lie is disinformation and undermines democracy

Unless you can provide any proof to back up what you are saying, you are you are is essence just making stuff up. Look into the multiplier effect when it comes to adding a new job, it creates 4-5 other new jobs that indirectly support it. The arena may only directly bring in 6,000 new jobs, but with the multiplier effect it actually creates 30,000 jobs in total. You are also assuming that they won't be adding new roads and developing the infrastructure. So the traffic issue you are so worried about could be resolved if this new arena deal goes through. The owner also said most of the season ticket holders are located in VA and not in DC. Additionally, the City is only kicking in $106M of the $2B deal. $1.5B will be through State issued bonds that will be repaid.

The Myth That Sports Stadiums Create New Jobs and Tax Revenues

The Kansas City Chiefs are considering moving to Kansas. As a Kansan who studies economics, I hope they stay on the Missouri side.

fee.org

The Myth That Sports Stadiums Create New Jobs and Tax Revenues: Why the numbers just don't add up for taxpayers | Peter Jacobsen

Over the last few weeks, rumors have been circulating that the Kansas City Chiefs are considering moving from Kansas City, Missouri to Kansas City, Kansas. Chiefs prez Mark Donovan, when asked this AM about potential new stadium options, said the team has considered options in state of...

blog.independent.org

Sports stadiums don't spur economic growth, Stanford expert says

Stanford economist Roger Noll says professional sports stadiums do not generate local economic growth as advertised. He also says the stadium costs that NFL teams expect local governments to contribute have fallen due to increased political resistance to subsidies for sports teams.

news.stanford.edu

There's three for you right there.

 

[Kimota]

None of these large projects are needed. Think about when MCI opened. That area was fully built out as well. Other than closing F Street in front of the building, nothing was closed down and traffic, while a bit congested mainly after the event, was never really a huge problem nor is it in most inner city arenas. (Tampa and Denver are two I have been many times) The problem, as you sorta point out, is getting over the river. This is something VA fans have been doing for 25+ years already. There are no chronic horror stories about that other than just "normal screwed up" DC traffic. I had season tickets until 2014 and drove in from Leesburg regularly. While it was a time investment for sure, it was only really bad a handful of times and most of those were affected by either weather or something going on in DC like the Christmas tree lighting or such.


I dont see any chance the Redskins build in DC. There is no place left that is worth investing in that has the acreage. The Lerners took the last spot for the Nats.

I meant from other franchises in the NHL lol

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

So how much money will taxpayers be subsidizing this arena for its billionaire owner?

 

[AcerComputer]

The Myth That Sports Stadiums Create New Jobs and Tax Revenues

The Kansas City Chiefs are considering moving to Kansas. As a Kansan who studies economics, I hope they stay on the Missouri side.

fee.org

The Myth That Sports Stadiums Create New Jobs and Tax Revenues: Why the numbers just don't add up for taxpayers | Peter Jacobsen

Over the last few weeks, rumors have been circulating that the Kansas City Chiefs are considering moving from Kansas City, Missouri to Kansas City, Kansas. Chiefs prez Mark Donovan, when asked this AM about potential new stadium options, said the team has considered options in state of...

blog.independent.org

Sports stadiums don't spur economic growth, Stanford expert says

Stanford economist Roger Noll says professional sports stadiums do not generate local economic growth as advertised. He also says the stadium costs that NFL teams expect local governments to contribute have fallen due to increased political resistance to subsidies for sports teams.

news.stanford.edu

There's three for you right there.

You clearly did not read my comments, as you fail to grasp that DC and Virginia are run by two different governments. If the arena has no economic value then DC shouldn't care that two sports franchises are leaving their city and pocket the $500m in arena upgrades. Maybe they can use that money to help make their city safer.

 

[Monk]

26 miles out is roughly Laurel, Gaithersburg, Sterling, Upper Marlboro. None of those are remotely close to 2 hours away from either location, but none of them are exactly convenient to either location, either.

Quite frankly, if you choose to live that far out from the urban core, you should expect to have difficulty accessing things in the urban core. That's the f*ing tradeoff you make when chasing after your McMansion. I live in a small house near a metro stop because I wanted to prioritize access to the urban core- and guess, what, it works! Potomac Yards is only a 3 metro stop difference for me, or most anyone on the B/O/S line.

Sounds like you and I made similar choices - I generally agree with you.

I will say, though, that it takes me at least 45 minutes to drive the ~10 miles to DCA on average. Which is, of course, why I take the metro instead. Depending on where you're coming from and when you're doing it, 26 miles may very well take ~2 hours by car.

If the team moves, it's unlikely I ever go to a game again (though I'm not a DC native nor a Caps fan).

 

[AcerComputer]

So how much money will taxpayers be subsidizing this arena for its billionaire owner?

Virginia is kicking in $106M. Much less than what DC was offering to upgrade the existing arena at the cost of $500M. So it's a huge win for DC as they don't benefits from having a sports arena there anyways, huge drain on government resources keeping the billionaires fat cats happy. They can pocket those savings and re-invest the money into their city by making it safer and reducing crime.

 

[Shane Diesel]

You clearly did not read my comments, as you fail to grasp that DC and Virginia are run by two different governments. If the arena has no economic value then DC shouldn't care that two sports franchises are leaving their city and pocket the $500m in arena upgrades. Maybe they can use that money to help make their city safer.

I did read your comments. You're completely wrong and now just doubling down, while taking unnecessary shots because you're upset.

 

[AcerComputer]

I did read your comments. You're completely wrong and now just doubling down, while taking unnecessary shots because you're upset.

So should DC not offer $500m to upgrade the arena? Should VA not offer $106m incentive to move? What is the best option?