Confirmed with Link: Canucks sign F Daniel Sprong to 1-Year Deal ($975K)

[credulous]

I would absolutely take the other side of that bet on Sprong with you.

i just don't see how they can send aman down without adding another center first and i will never, ever bet against pdg being on a tocchet roster

 

[LemonSauceD]

i can't believe a guy who is probably getting cut in camp has 11 pages of discussion

i disagree.

Sprong pretty easily makes the team. Whether he stays on the team is a different matter, but I’m probably going to bet he starts the year right beside Pettersson and Debrusk.

 

[arttk]

It could be. I also quoted VanillaCoke.


I would absolutely take the other side of that bet on Sprong with you.

seriously.. there is a very low chance that Toc is going to cut someone that he personally recruited unless Sprong f***s up big time.

 

[bossram]

i just don't see how they can send aman down without adding another center first and i will never, ever bet against pdg being on a tocchet roster

So you'll take the bet?

 

[Bgav]

if i had to bet right now on who makes the canucks final roster (ignoring technical moves like papering down players to maximize cap space on the season opening roster) it'd be sprong and podkolzin not making the cut

(i probably wouldn't bet tho because training camp injuries are pretty common and i think they'll be able to carry one or both of them at least to start the season)

Sprong who's had back 2 back 40+ point seasons and said he signed right after speaking to tocchet... Where can i take this bet?

 

[sting101]

I would bet on Podkolzin being the odd man out over anyone if we're fully healthy.

PDG had the confidence of Tocchet at the conclusion and could PK....although i guess he might also slip through waivers so that could be a discussion if we're fully healthy.

Sprong has been a solid starter so i doubt he gets beat out by the likes of PDG and Pod

Podkolzin hasn't shown much if any offensive growth and he still gets lost and confused on D. Wasn't trusted last year in the playoffs when they sure could have used somebody to help 40

Huge fan of the personality and how he's built physically and i love his net drive but he's gotta be able to play some kinda role other than 4th line banger bringing physicality with some forechecking presence.

As far as Amen they shouldn't ba afraid of losing him. Raty Sasson Mueller Smith ITS. Didnt Sherwood play some C at one point. If Raty has a strong camp and looks like he can play C his days are probably numbered anyway

 

[credulous]

So you'll take the bet?

if you're serious and we can agree on escrow sure. how much?

 

[Bgav]

Also Rutherford today said Alvin and Toch sold sprong to sign here.

 

[Vector]

There's two things I think I know.

1) bossram is a compulsive gambler
2) credulous is rich or something and can kind of just throw money away

 

[credulous]

There's two things I think I know.

1) bossram is a compulsive gambler
2) credulous is rich or something and can kind of just throw money away

i'm retired, i'm on a fixed income

 

[arttk]

There's two things I think I know.

1) bossram is a compulsive gambler
2) credulous is rich or something and can kind of just throw money away

we really need to discourage gambling

 

[Nick Lang]

I have a theory that his defensive inadequacies stem from the Dutch psyche of "that's somebody elses problem" for every single situation imaginable across all levels of society.

My dog pooped on someone elses driveway? Not my problem!

I blindly bike across a road without checking for traffic? Somebody elses problem! After all, I'm protected by THE LAW and the laws of physics can't hurt me!

I see an old lady lose her walker and it rolls 20m away while standing right beside her? Not my problem, she can go hobble over there herself to get it!

Also, the Dutch love their soccer but for a strong soccer nation they are all collectively horse crap on the defensive side. Like you said, defence is somebody else's problem. Then wonder why they lose. Then go to the QJHML, and you get more of the same lack of defensive responsibility. No wonder he's a n'mare defensively.

 

[LemonSauceD]

There's two things I think I know.

1) bossram is a compulsive gambler
2) credulous is rich or something and can kind of just throw money away

 

[bossram]

There's two things I think I know.

1) bossram is a compulsive gambler
2) credulous is rich or something and can kind of just throw money away

It's only gambling if you lose! It's "income" or an "investment" if you win.

if you're serious and we can agree on escrow sure. how much?

What amount is reasonable for you? $100? $1000?

 

[credulous]

It's only gambling if you lose! It's "income" or an "investment" if you win.


What amount is reasonable for you? $100? $1000?

either is good for me. anything over $100 and i'll insist we both escrow the money tho

 

[Bleach Clean]

i just don't see how they can send aman down without adding another center first and i will never, ever bet against pdg being on a tocchet roster

This is going to happen because DeBrusk and Heinen will cover PDG's PK duty. Essentially, making him unnecessary.

Aman is the tougher one to call because he plays centre.

 

[arttk]

This is going to happen because DeBrusk and Heinen will cover PDG's PK duty. Essentially, making him unnecessary.

Aman is the tougher one to call because he plays centre.

I think aman signed to 2 yr makes it less likely for him to be picked up. Teams don’t want to pay guys real money to be in the AHL.

 

[biturbo19]

I didn't bring up Skinner and Arvidsson or anyone else. You must be thinking of a different poster.

He won't be "drastically" better. I guess the Canucks are betting that they can make him somewhat better. We'll see. I think players sometimes do have those sorts of mid-career improvements. Luke Schenn comes to mind.

Comparing some late career development from Luke Schenn to Daniel Sprong's defensive issues is such a bizarre thing.

Schenn was never really that bad defensively. And certainly not from a lack of effort or "want to". He was a highly drafted defensive defenceman. His biggest problem was the expectations of that in a pressure cooker market and being played waaaaay over his head early in his career. But he always had the will and intention to commit fully to the defensive side of the puck (that was the only side of the puck for him).

So Schenn settling in to a steadier defensive game and embracing his role as a depth guy later in his career, is really just more of a natural progression of a guy who was invested in the process all along, finally being put in more appropriate situations and gaining experience.


Sprong's problem defensively, is that he appears to simply not care. And even when he does, he doesn't seem interested in getting the details right. And that's been a common theme at every stop along his career from Juniors right through every stop along the way to here, where he's now 27 years old and has had dozens of coaches and a bundle of different situations that all end the exact same way.

A sudden 180 now, at this stage, would be an extreme outlier on how development typically works.

if i had to bet right now on who makes the canucks final roster (ignoring technical moves like papering down players to maximize cap space on the season opening roster) it'd be sprong and podkolzin not making the cut

(i probably wouldn't bet tho because training camp injuries are pretty common and i think they'll be able to carry one or both of them at least to start the season)

These seem like terrible bets.

Podkolzin especially...unless he's traded, it's hard to see any chance they cut him, send him down, and expose him to waivers to lose for nothing in the process.

And Sprong...as much as i'd have him right on the bubble and very likely cut him, i think the fact that Tocchet reached out to him personally to recruit him, speaks to the fact that he's going to be given every opportunity to make the team.


PDG is in all likelihood, the guy sent down here. Unless they think he can play Center at the NHL level...in which case, Aman is probably the cut.

I dont see how Hoglanders past where he was 19-22 and had enough issues he wasn't even a NHL player is a good barometer for being disruptive. And "typical spark plug grinder types" is being harsh given his age and career trajectory

Fact is him and Pettersson have had really good chemistry, play driving statistics and unfortunately for Hoglander (and getting an accurate sample) he was stuck with 2 players in terrible funks at the time where you might have the best barometer for how the 2 look going forward. I'm not sure if trying to accurately quantify what Hoglander is fully capable of with Pettersson is a great thing to bank on just yet

Ideally a PF who could finish and create time and space in possession would be best for EP40 (if you could pluck someone from the league that wouldn't just take over driving Petterssons' line you would probably target Brady Tkachuk) Given the unrealistic expectation of teams giving us their best players you have to optimistic about Jake DeBrusk and his skillset. Hoglander Pettersson DeBrusk looks like a fine play driving line to me.

On Sprong i fully agree with what you have been saying. Last 2 years he's started strong then faded. It's ended the same way with him being benched and untrusted. Like Lafferty if we get 50-60 games of supplementary scoring that's fine too but my hope would be it doesn't take away opportunity for others to grow or worse they trade someone and bank on him being productive further up the lineup and then he goes back to being bad when you need him most.

As to the bolded...they just don't though. I honestly don't know what you've been watching to come to this conclusion, because it's plain as day seeing Hoggy and Pete on the ice together, that they are completely disjointed and are trying to play entirely different styles of game.

Speaking to previous examples of them being tried is about establishing a context, where this isn't new. This has always been the case. Hoglander has always played his best hockey with guys like Horvat/Lafferty who play with speed and puck carrying through the neutral zone, direct North-South driving the net, and let Hoggy work the forecheck, clean up spare change around the net, and capitalize on quick-strike off the rush, or broken plays off the forecheck type offense.

Pettersson thrives in a far more methodical approach.


This below...

He finished sixth in total even strength ice-time amongst forwards and Pettersson was his most common centre at 321 minutes. He definitely did spend time on the fourth line (Lafferty/Aman were second with 280 minutes with him) and averaged only 12 minutes a game at even strength which is right in line with Di Giuseppe.

What's interesting is looking at who assisted on his goals. He started on the 4th line with most of his goals being assisted by Lafferty but was eventually elevated in the line-up and finished the season with Pettersson.

Total Teammate Assists by Player:
Pettersson | 5
Lafferty | 5
Myers | 5
Hughes | 4
Hronek | 4
Boeser | 3
Mikheyev | 3
Aman | 3
Garland | 3
Suter | 2
Beauvillier | 1
Miller | 1
Lindholm | 1

Lafferty was all at the beginning of the season and Pettersson was at the end.

Is really a serious indictment of any claims that Pettersson and Hoglander have anything resembling "really good chemistry". Even just ignoring the obvious eye test evaluation to the contrary...the stats largely reflect that as well.


In more minutes with Pettersson last year, Hoggy still only had the same number of his goals assisted on by Lafferty. When even sleepwalking through a slump, Pettersson is clearly 100x the "playmaker" that Lafferty is capable of being. Heck...offensive black hole Aman assisted on nearly as many of Hoglander's goals as Pettersson.


This breakdown all just speaks to the fact that Hoglander doesn't play the game in a way that meshes with what Pettersson does. He jives far more and is far more effective and efficient in his minutes with guys like Lafferty/Aman who just play a simple, North-South game with pace.

You'll also notice that adding up those assists...there certainly aren't 2 for every goal. Also speaks to his propensity for scoring off "broken plays" more than strictly working the puck around and methodically setting up high quality scoring chances that way, as Pettersson tends to operate most effectively.

 

[biturbo19]

I think aman signed to 2 yr makes it less likely for him to be picked up. Teams don’t want to pay guys real money to be in the AHL.

I don't think there's much real danger of Aman being claimed. Especially with two years of more or less NHL salary due either way. But teams don't tend to claim guys like that out of camp. Zero offense #5Center types...usually lost in the shuffle of a crowded waiver wire.


The issue though, is that without Aman on the roster, the Canucks only have 4 NHL Centers. Hard to imagine that working. Gives you zero flexibility or ability to sustain 4 coherent lines through any sort of minor injury that doesn't warrant an IR stint to create a roster spot and call a guy up.

 

[arttk]

I don't think there's much real danger of Aman being claimed. Especially with two years of more or less NHL salary due either way. But teams don't tend to claim guys like that out of camp. Zero offense #5Center types...usually lost in the shuffle of a crowded waiver wire.


The issue though, is that without Aman on the roster, the Canucks only have 4 NHL Centers. Hard to imagine that working. Gives you zero flexibility or ability to sustain 4 coherent lines through any sort of minor injury that doesn't warrant an IR stint to create a roster spot and call a guy up.

I think that’s why most folks are thinking there is going to be a trade around Hog.

For all the potential extra forwards:
Aman: little trade value, low upside but has some utility as an extra center
Pod: if he can be a 40pt guy, the physicality, size and speed is a package that is as good as Joshua
PDG: almost zero trade value, can waive him and will probably clear, his role is replaced by all the new guys
Hog: young, broke out last year but very suspect defensively and ceiling is limited from the perspective of him being a poor playmaker and having a crappy shot

Waiving PDG is kinda a no brainer.. keeping Aman as an extra makes sense so the question is, should we lose POD for nothing or keep POD and make that gamble and package Hog to fill a hole somewhere if other GMs find value in Hog. Losing Pod to waiver would suck and also having him as an extra doesn’t help his development.

 

[Lindgren]

Comparing some late career development from Luke Schenn to Daniel Sprong's defensive issues is such a bizarre thing.

Schenn was never really that bad defensively. And certainly not from a lack of effort or "want to". He was a highly drafted defensive defenceman. His biggest problem was the expectations of that in a pressure cooker market and being played waaaaay over his head early in his career. But he always had the will and intention to commit fully to the defensive side of the puck (that was the only side of the puck for him).

So Schenn settling in to a steadier defensive game and embracing his role as a depth guy later in his career, is really just more of a natural progression of a guy who was invested in the process all along, finally being put in more appropriate situations and gaining experience.


Sprong's problem defensively, is that he appears to simply not care. And even when he does, he doesn't seem interested in getting the details right. And that's been a common theme at every stop along his career from Juniors right through every stop along the way to here, where he's now 27 years old and has had dozens of coaches and a bundle of different situations that all end the exact same way.

A sudden 180 now, at this stage, would be an extreme outlier on how development typically works.



These seem like terrible bets.

Schenn had to go to the minors, and he changed his game and improved. That's it. He wasn't too old to do so. Maybe Sprong isn't too old to improve.

I keep reading straw men: he won't suddenly become elite defensively, he won't make a drastic improvement, and yours—he won't make a sudden 180. Maybe somebody is offering those predictions, but if they are they're not serious.

The hope is for some improvement. I put it as going from terrible defensively to low average. Not elite. Not a 180. A modest but significant improvement. Like everybody else, I have no idea if that'll happen. But it wouldn't be some shocking outlier if it did.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I think aman signed to 2 yr makes it less likely for him to be picked up. Teams don’t want to pay guys real money to be in the AHL.

I agree, but this particular offseason was bad for centre options. It could create a market for him.

 

[biturbo19]

Schenn had to go to the minors, and he changed his game and improved. That's it. He wasn't too old to do so. Maybe Sprong isn't too old to improve.

I keep reading straw men: he won't suddenly become elite defensively, he won't make a drastic improvement, and yours—he won't make a sudden 180. Maybe somebody is offering those predictions, but if they are they're not serious.

The hope is for some improvement. I put it as going from terrible defensively to low average. Not elite. Not a 180. A modest but significant improvement. Like everybody else, I have no idea if that'll happen. But it wouldn't be some shocking outlier if it did.

Again though, i don't think Schenn ever really "changed" his game that radically. He was always a defence-first player. The will was always there. The effort and attention was always there. He simply learned to simplify even further, and honed the details of his defensive game and got put into situations where he gained experience and improved incrementally as the player he always was defensively. It was just an evolution of the player he always was, who emerged more effective.

It has practically no relevance to the Sprong situation.

Sprong is a guy where, due to the nature of his defensive issues...in order to improve somewhat defensively, it would require a pretty radical 180 on his entire mentality and approach to the game. And that would be a serious outlier. It can happen, with the right situation and a serious wakeup call...but it's extremely rare at his age.

 

[biturbo19]

I think that’s why most folks are thinking there is going to be a trade around Hog.

For all the potential extra forwards:
Aman: little trade value, low upside but has some utility as an extra center
Pod: if he can be a 40pt guy, the physicality, size and speed is a package that is as good as Joshua
PDG: almost zero trade value, can waive him and will probably clear, his role is replaced by all the new guys
Hog: young, broke out last year but very suspect defensively and ceiling is limited from the perspective of him being a poor playmaker and having a crappy shot

Waiving PDG is kinda a no brainer.. keeping Aman as an extra makes sense so the question is, should we lose POD for nothing or keep POD and make that gamble and package Hog to fill a hole somewhere if other GMs find value in Hog. Losing Pod to waiver would suck and also having him as an extra doesn’t help his development.

There's also always the possibility of just keeping 14F - 7D. Everyone just writes that off as though it's impossible. But Friedman ain't squat. He played less games than either of PDG/Aman and barely more than Podkolzin even. We don't need two spare RHD anyway. And it'd allow them to just send PDG down and keep everyone else, including Podkolzin and Aman as the spare Center on the roster.

Frankly, it's really been more traditional for the most part to carry 2 spare forwards and 1 spare D, due to the fact you have twice as many Forward spots as Defence. We've got a ton of guys in Abbyford who can come up and play some games at D this year, including Friedman if he's sent down. That's the way i'd lean.


Though there's certainly some merit to the idea of a Hoglander trade...which could kick loose a roster spot up front and a potential upgrade on defence where it's badly needed. Just not sure where that deal is, especially with the cap so tight now.

 

[Lindgren]

Again though, i don't think Schenn ever really "changed" his game that radically. He was always a defence-first player. The will was always there. The effort and attention was always there. He simply learned to simplify even further, and honed the details of his defensive game and got put into situations where he gained experience and improved incrementally as the player he always was defensively. It was just an evolution of the player he always was, who emerged more effective.

It has practically no relevance to the Sprong situation.

Sprong is a guy where, due to the nature of his defensive issues...in order to improve somewhat defensively, it would require a pretty radical 180 on his entire mentality and approach to the game. And that would be a serious outlier. It can happen, with the right situation and a serious wakeup call...but it's extremely rare at his age.

Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think it takes a radical 180 to realize marginal improvement, and I don't think Schenn's improvement is what you described (and if the "radical 180" is simply a change in attitude that brings more attention to the defensive side of the game, surely there's plenty of precedent for that).

But I wasn't intending the Schenn comparison to be a strict analogue for Sprong (I'd have thought that was obvious), just a refutation of the claim that players of Sprong's age can't improve.