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[RobsonStreet]

The other need is a 2C. The idea should be to target someone who isn’t quite a 2C yet but with potential to grow into one. Sillinger, Geekie, and Pinto types.

Rumours out of Minnesota say the Wild don’t want to pay Rossi his raise and are thinking of moving on from him in the offseason. He’d be the guy I’d try to get that fits this mold.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Rumours out of Minnesota say the Wild don’t want to pay Rossi his raise and are thinking of moving on from him in the offseason. He’d be the guy I’d try to get that fits this mold.

Rossi would be nice for sure but he’s tiny. 5’9 183lbs. He plays grittier for his size but we already have 3-4 midgets.

 

[sting101]

Why did Steve Yzerman trade a 2nd to get rid of Walman when EDM was willing to pay him a 1st? Why did Treliving sign Ryan Reaves for three years? Why did Benning trade for OEL? I dunno. GMs do dumb stuff pretty often. Or is your argument that every GM is infallible and every decision they make is optimal and should be unquestioned? Is Toronto the paragon of playoff success here? LMAO.

But yes. Suter is clearly better than both Laughton and Domi. Defensively, it's not close. In the time Suter has been a Canuck, he's put up elite defensive impacts by RAPM xG, HockeyViz's Isolated Impact heat maps, and xG against relative to teammates. Domi is one of the leagues worst defensive players (corroborated by these metrics) and is not trusted at all by his coaches in defensive situations. Laughton also looks pretty bad by these metrics in the past two seasons. If he's "way faster and more physical", why is his team giving up more chances with him? Suter just runs the right routes on the backcheck, and breaks up plays with good stick check timing and defensive coverage. That's why his defensive metrics are elite.

Laughton and Domi also aren't trusted to even play center. TOR has constantly been trying to find ways to shift Domi out of the 3C spot. And Laughton hasn't even been primarily a center in Philly the last two seasons, and is already demoted to bottom-six wing in TOR.

Now on the PK, Suter (along with Blueger) have transformed the Canucks into an Actually Good PK unit - astonishing given where they used to be. And he's doing it on the first PK unit against the other team's best, while starting in the DZ (vs PKing OTF shifts which is much easier). Domi doesn't PK at all. Laughton's chance prevention metrics on the PK are pretty neutral relative to team, while the actual goals against results have been quite bad.

Now offensively, at 5v5, Pius Suter has a higher points/60 than Laughton the past two seasons. And visually watching these players, I am very confident saying that the current versions of these players, Suter is a better offensive player. Domi does have a substantially higher points/60, but that is with the benefit of playing a very sheltered scoring role.

Appreciate the effort and agree with some of this especially the smart defensive routes and stick but you're using a short data set and also not fully factoring in line mates. In fact it's basically been dismissed by the advanced numbers you presented and teams run their own advanced numbers which might further dispute what you are arguing.

And back to my original point teams look for the right balance and value physicality speed defensive zone face offs and players who have proven track records.

The very point was that the 8 teams outlined would likely not look at Suter as an upgrade. I gave you Washington sure but they also might just be happy having so much size and strength through the middle and pretty hard to argue if so given their record an the wealth of experience Eller and Dowd bring

Yet here we are stuck arguing whether Suter has blossomed into a better player than Max Domi and Scott Laughton by a series of advanced stats that are effected by Quinn Hughes and playing LW with JT MIller when he was a 100pt #1C with much better goaltending. Like does any of that fluff Brock Boeser and his 40 goals or does that fall under a different set of statistics idk? Seems like people were getting worked up about Hughes fluffing Miller even vs Pettersson.
Does what TO value behind Matthews and Tavares factor into the discussion or are you content with just using the well GMs make bad decisions so this must be?

It's really not "leagues better" when your getting stuck on a 60-80 league wide best C vs another that falls into that same grouping.

At this very moment is the best Suter has ever been and that is great and as that article that Nick Lang posted said he has put in the work and it's paying off and he's a smart cerebral hockey player.
But that doesn't change that spikes like 5% of his shooting pct and getting a prime role often have a period where things drop to averages and he's physically limited. Look at the Blues game where he got destroyed and looked slow and overmatched.

Been fun arguing this but i disagree. No one thought it was imperative to pay a price to get Pius Suter to upgrade at C and of the 24 i mentioned whether Suter is a better player than Namestniko Eller and Laughton Domi to which you can argue this has little to do with the need for someone who is in the top half of that grouping

Would be nice to make an accommodation for him as a utility player. Problem is he's priced us out if we want 2 players above his production.

It's why he's not signed IMO

 

[RobsonStreet]

Rossi would be nice for sure but he’s tiny. 5’9 183lbs. He plays grittier for his size but we already have 3-4 midgets.

True, but also if he was 6’3” 215 he’d never be available. Beggars can’t be choosers.

 

[bossram]

I don’t see Pius Suter signing anything above $4 million there are no comparables.

Jake Evans $2.85 million x 4 years (best comparable)
Vladimir Namenstnikov $3 million x 2 years
Brett Howden $2.5 million x 5 years
Alex Kerfoot $3 million x 1 year

Vatarano and Zucker both got 4.5-4.75 million respectively on long term deals both have more impressive scoring numbers.

I think Suter gets $3.25-3.75 million on a 3-4 year deal.

Agreed. I think players of his size and reputation are very generally undervalued relative to their actual on-ice contribution.

I don't think he'll command above $4M AAV on a mid-term deal. And at that price (or anything sub-$4M), I am absolutely on board. He provides a lot more on-ice value than that.

 

[arttk]

I like him; one of the few who can win FOs and still quite young.

the #1 reason why he'll be on the roster next season, rare to have a guy that can win faceoffs on either side.

 

[bossram]

Appreciate the effort and agree with some of this especially the smart defensive routes and stick but you're using a short data set and also not fully factoring in line mates. In fact it's basically been dismissed by the advanced numbers you presented and teams run their own advanced numbers which might further dispute what you are arguing.

And back to my original point teams look for the right balance and value physicality speed defensive zone face offs and players who have proven track records.

The very point was that the 8 teams outlined would likely not look at Suter as an upgrade. I gave you Washington sure but they also might just be happy having so much size and strength through the middle and pretty hard to argue if so given their record an the wealth of experience Eller and Dowd bring

Yet here we are stuck arguing whether Suter has blossomed into a better player than Max Domi and Scott Laughton by a series of advanced stats that are effected by Quinn Hughes and playing LW with JT MIller when he was a 100pt #1C with much better goaltending. Like does any of that fluff Brock Boeser and his 40 goals or does that fall under a different set of statistics idk? Seems like people were getting worked up about Hughes fluffing Miller even vs Pettersson.
Does what TO value behind Matthews and Tavares factor into the discussion or are you content with just using the well GMs make bad decisions so this must be?

It's really not "leagues better" when your getting stuck on a 60-80 league wide best C vs another that falls into that same grouping.

At this very moment is the best Suter has ever been and that is great and as that article that Nick Lang posted said he has put in the work and it's paying off and he's a smart cerebral hockey player.
But that doesn't change that spikes like 5% of his shooting pct and getting a prime role often have a period where things drop to averages and he's physically limited. Look at the Blues game where he got destroyed and looked slow and overmatched.

Been fun arguing this but i disagree. No one thought it was imperative to pay a price to get Pius Suter to upgrade at C and of the 24 i mentioned whether Suter is a better player than Namestniko Eller and Laughton Domi to which you can argue this has little to do with the need for someone who is in the top half of that grouping

Would be nice to make an accommodation for him as a utility player. Problem is he's priced us out if we want 2 players above his production.

It's why he's not signed IMO

Regarding the bolded, in fact, you are wrong. Some of the "advanced numbers" do, in fact, try to account for teammate effects. Some of the metrics I used, like Evolving Hockey's RAPM and HockeyViz's Isolated Impact do just that - as well as quality of competition.

At this point, your argument is basically just appeal to authority of some GMs. Some GMs (very often) get it wrong! No other GM wanted to give Suter more than $1.6M x 2, do you think they were right about that? No they weren't. Clearly Suter provides a lot more on-ice value than that. Like, you're convinced that what Brad Treliving values in terms of fit/role is actually correct. Uhh...looking at the track record of the Leafs, I would not be that confident. This guy gave Ryan Reaves a multi-year deal. I'm not sure his judgement is infallible.

Now you're using a one-game sample to say that Suter is bad and slow because he got "overmatched" by STL. I could easily point to his game against NJ where he was the Canucks 1C, got hard matched against Hischier, and dramatically outplayed him.

Again, I'm not saying all of those teams would swap what they have with Suter. I'm saying that Suter is absolutely, unquestionably a better player than Domi or Laughton and you are wrong to think otherwise. The guy is miles better defensively, a top-end PKer, and a wash offensively. In my mind, that is "leagues better".

 

[Soups On]

Rossi would be nice for sure but he’s tiny. 5’9 183lbs. He plays grittier for his size but we already have 3-4 midgets.

Who cares. 41 even strength points this year and still very young - this team needs to score more goals and there's enough gritty players in the line up.

He also wouldn't be anywhere near available if he was 6'2. If he's available the team needs to make a pitch but I don't see Minnesota actually trading him.

 

[arttk]

Rossi would be nice for sure but he’s tiny. 5’9 183lbs. He plays grittier for his size but we already have 3-4 midgets.

this feels personal

 

[sting101]

Regarding the bolded, in fact, you are wrong. Some of the "advanced numbers" do, in fact, try to account for teammate effects. Some of the metrics I used, like Evolving Hockey's RAPM and HockeyViz's Isolated Impact do just that - as well as quality of competition.

At this point, your argument is basically just appeal to authority of some GMs. Some GMs (very often) get it wrong! No other GM wanted to give Suter more than $1.6M x 2, do you think they were right about that? No they weren't. Clearly Suter provides a lot more on-ice value than that. Like, you're convinced that what Brad Treliving values in terms of fit/role is actually correct. Uhh...looking at the track record of the Leafs, I would not be that confident. This guy gave Ryan Reaves a multi-year deal. I'm not sure his judgement is infallible.

Now you're using a one-game sample to say that Suter is bad and slow because he got "overmatched" by STL. I could easily point to his game against NJ where he was the Canucks 1C, got hard matched against Hischier, and dramatically outplayed him.

Again, I'm not saying all of those teams would swap what they have with Suter. I'm saying that Suter is absolutely, unquestionably a better player than Domi or Laughton and you are wrong to think otherwise. The guy is miles better defensively, a top-end PKer, and a wash offensively. In my mind, that is "leagues better".

i'll toss you a like for effort a strong argument and convictions but in the future if you care you could be a lot more respectful than being so off putting with how you view my rebuttals.

Kinda makes one feel like they wasted time and less likely to engage in the future when you get so blunt and stuck in dismissing that someone might have intelligence and educated opinions of their own with the LOL's and appeal to authority dog shit responses.

Anyhoooo. Glad to agree to disagree most of this was a good discussion

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

 

[krutovsdonut]

Rossi would be nice for sure but he’s tiny. 5’9 183lbs. He plays grittier for his size but we already have 3-4 midgets.

have you ever met a 183lb midget?

if he really is a 183 lbs at 5' 9" then i'd keep an open mind on him as a forward. that's a solid height to weight ratio and as a forward he does not need leverage or wingspan. if he was 6' 2" he would be 218 lbs.

 

[ChilliBilly]

Comprehensive list of all places I’ve ever been to outside of BC

Disneyland
Cancun x2
Maui
Cabo
Calgary

Cancun is the f***ing best.

Too old to care about night life. Been to 8 places in Europe (Loved Slovenia) 12 countries in Caribbean and Central America, 1 in S America, Fiji, NZ and Australia. Been to Australia 5 - 6 times. Been to 15 states.

Two most impressive things I've seen in nature 1 - Great Barrier Reef (twice) 2 - Jenolan caves outside of Sydney near the Blue Mountains. They are presently closed, but the Orient cave is beyond belief. See it last. Bryce Canyon and the Grand Canyon are impressive as well.

Man made things - The Sagrada Familial Church is the most amazing structure on earth. And we didn't even go inside. Under construction for over 140 years. Started in 1882, expected to be completed in the next 10 years.

 

[ManVanFan]

Rossi would be nice for sure but he’s tiny. 5’9 183lbs. He plays grittier for his size but we already have 3-4 midgets.

Centers below 5'11" are rare and far between because size is needed in the middle. Yanni Gourde was 3lc on TB. He's pretty feisty for a small guy, which most aren't. Tyler Johnson was 4lc when TB won the cup. Mikael Granlund and Bedard are the only decent 5'10" centers in the league. Players that size are better suited to the wing.

 

[me2]

Doesn't he disappear down the stretch and in the playoffs though? 4 goals, 10 assists, 14 points, -9 in 37 career playoff games. I'd be wary of giving him a big contract and making him one of our core guys.

Doesn't matter how good a player is in the playoffs if you're a lottery pick.

Not that it matters as Ehlers has other irons
options. The canucks really need a centre.

 

[Bgav]

This is random, but i cant believe anyone would take Sillinger over KJ on the jackets.

 

[Hughes Clues]

Centers below 5'11" are rare and far between because size is needed in the middle. Yanni Gourde was 3lc on TB. He's pretty feisty for a small guy, which most aren't. Tyler Johnson was 4lc when TB won the cup. Mikael Granlund and Bedard are the only decent 5'10" centers in the league. Players that size are better suited to the wing.

I had no idea Granlund was that small lol.

 

[ephmrl]

This is random, but i cant believe anyone would take Sillinger over KJ on the jackets.

I think Sillinger would be a much better target for the Canucks than KJ, even though KJ is the better player at this point.

A center core of Pettersson-Sillinger-Suter-Blueger would be pretty nice, just would need to find a scoring winger in free agency or another trade.

 

[Hughes Clues]

have you ever met a 183lb midget?

if he really is a 183 lbs at 5' 9" then i'd keep an open mind on him as a forward. that's a solid height to weight ratio and as a forward he does not need leverage or wingspan. if he was 6' 2" he would be 218 lbs.

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle...

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle...

In that vein, we're discussing hockey and not basketball.

 

[ManVanFan]

I had no idea Granlund was that small lol.

His career 82 avg for face offs is around 700. Been a part time career center.

 

[LemonSauceD]

True, but also if he was 6’3” 215 he’d never be available. Beggars can’t be choosers.

The way we construct the roster also matters. Our lack of size up front is already an issue and Rossi adds to that complex problem of ours; smaller forwards that aren’t effective against bigger and faster teams.

This is random, but i cant believe anyone would take Sillinger over KJ on the jackets.

Would’ve been a nice target prior to this season. He’s played himself into untouchable category for them.

 

[JanBulisPiggyBack]

can we please just take all of Columbus's players now and move on

 

[RobsonStreet]

The way we construct the roster also matters. Our lack of size up front is already an issue and Rossi adds to that complex problem of ours; smaller forwards that aren’t effective against bigger and faster teams.

Again, restricting the focus to “potential top six centres with size that other teams are also open to trading away for some reason” is great in theory; it also happens to sound like the logic a Jim Benning-type would use to look for a specific player type and wind up with Brandon Sutter…

 

[Peen]

this team is very talent devoid. again, if you lose boeser, this team is three top six forwards short.

you do not pick and choose. any of ehlers, rossi, norris, whoever. you have to focus on just getting guys.

we are the most extreme example of beggars cant be choosers